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Thread: Dugu Qiubai: did Jin Yong mess up his story?

  1. #61
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    You'd be quite blind to see that LHC was a special case where it brought LHC up to speed EXTREMELY quickly. Going by the normal route of at least another decade even for a talented individual to master it, there's no indication that it's not like ANY OTHER MARTIAL ART where you have both internal energy and technique.
    Not sure what you're getting at, since Yang Guo basically traversed through many years worth of progress in just one or two months. He probably improved about 5x after he left Dugu Qiubai's valley. That definitely rivals Linghu Chong's progress with Dugu 9 Swords.

    Both incorrect examples. QQR was surprised by the weapon and put into a poor position. Run that fight again with QQR in a clear mind and YG would have lost.
    I don't believe so. There are infinite ways to pose a surprising position. In fact, what Yang Guo did goes along with Dugu 9 Swords' principle of always sticking the sword against the palm; the sword always follows the palm.

    Against GWM that's an even poorer example. YG lost out the internal energy fight until XLN intervened. If we IGNORE XLN, then we have YG trying to sneak in and use his sleeve to strike GWM. So much for SIMPLICITY.
    You must realize that Golden Wheel Monk FORCED Yang Guo into a competition of internal energy (gee, I wonder how he actually got the right idea that time, since he's nearly always doing the wrong thing), at the disadvantage of Yang Guo not being able to move. Were it a normal combat, Yang Guo would have won, since there's no way he position himself into a competition of internal energy WITHOUT the HIS may I add. And lest not forget, Goldie didn't even dare go near Yang Guo due to the fear of the HIS. This is why Yang Guo keeps thinking "16 years ago, this monk was already not a match for me..."

    Yang Guo with Heavy Iron Sword IS superior to both Qiu Qianren AND Golden Wheel Monk 16 years ago.

    A normal practicioner of DG9J would have had to train diligently for over a decade just to compete with the masters of wulin according to FCY. Even training orthodox Huashan internal energy for that long would give you a solid base.
    Yes, and I wonder how is a practitioner of Gugu 9 Swords supposed to acquire the internal energy? Certainly not from the technique itself. Dugu 9 Swords neither requires nor thrives with internal energy. Of course it CAN be used with lots of internal energy, but by then, presumably, you're ready to move onto something better, like the Wooden Sword stage.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  2. #62
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    You're giving HIS an unfair advantage in the end. The HIS gets a special weapon, massive internal energy as well as the opponents forgetting how to evade and counter.

    Meanwhile, you're making out DG9J to use a normal sword and to lack internal energy.

    But that's clearly impossible for the normal usage of DG9J. LHC learned DG9J far faster than FCY did. Yet FCY didn't think LHC would master DG9J for at least another decade of DILIGENT training. With the Huashan internal energy formula LHC had, he'd naturally gain good internal energy along with DG9J.
    And he's not even accounting for the fact that YG's Heavy Iron Sword does not actually help improve or generate that massive internal energy (that was all snake gallbladders), whereas DG9J does help increase your technique.

    Basically, he's pitting a 30-40 yr veteran of jianghu (that would be needed in order to generate the internal energy needed for HIS) against a guy fresh into the world.

    And, for that matter, I really don't see a person using HIS who had equal internal energy to the person using DG9J beating the person with DG9J. PJ states that DG9J is not meant to be used with high internal energy, but I would love to see what proof this is based upon.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 03-15-08 at 03:13 PM.
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  3. #63
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Not sure what you're getting at, since Yang Guo basically traversed through many years worth of progress in just one or two months. He probably improved about 5x after he left Dugu Qiubai's valley. That definitely rivals Linghu Chong's progress with Dugu 9 Swords.
    YG had the benefit of a magical sword and magical snake bladders. If anything, his progress was far more DEM.



    I don't believe so. There are infinite ways to pose a surprising position. In fact, what Yang Guo did goes along with Dugu 9 Swords' principle of always sticking the sword against the palm; the sword always follows the palm.
    Read it again, QQR was the one who attacked the weapon using his palm. The sword didn't veer off though because it was surprisingly heavy.



    You must realize that Golden Wheel Monk FORCED Yang Guo into a competition of internal energy (gee, I wonder how he actually got the right idea that time, since he's nearly always doing the wrong thing), at the disadvantage of Yang Guo not being able to move.
    If you can force the HIS user into an internal energy duel, then what's up with the whole simplicity thing? I guess there's a place for duplicity for both GWM and YG after all.



    Yes, and I wonder how is a practitioner of Gugu 9 Swords supposed to acquire the internal energy? Certainly not from the technique itself. Dugu 9 Swords neither requires nor thrives with internal energy. Of course it CAN be used with lots of internal energy, but by then, presumably, you're ready to move onto something better, like the Wooden Sword stage.
    Yes, and I wonder how is a practitioner of HIS supposed to acquire the internal energy? Certainly not from the technique itself.

    I guess if you have a DEM where you get lots of magic snake bladders it certainly helps.

  4. #64
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    The Condor praticed with YG and helped him train physically the same way DGQB did. It was basically a weight training regimen. Where's the proof that YG learn to use the HIS as DGQB did? The phrase that "simplicity is greater than complexity" contains just as much info about wielding a sword as DG9J?
    When Yang Guo wielded HIS against Qiu Qianren, the following was stated:

    可是杨过这路剑法实是独孤求败的绝技,虽然年代相隔久远,不能亲得这位前辈的传授,但洪水练剑,蛇胆增力,仗着神雕之助,杨过所习剑法已仿怫于当年天下无敌的剑魔

    Based on what you say, basically any great can just use the HIS and reach the same level as DGQB's swordsmanship during the HIS level. You're basically arguing that learning no technique at all is better than learning DG9J. Somehow, I doubt that's what simplicity is about.
    I believe I will have more to elaborate on this point shortly.
    I am going to write a new post.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    不能亲得这位前辈的传授

    This is the most relevant sentence. It shows that JY didn't mess up when he said that YG's sword techniques weren't very good because he didn't learn much of DGQB's swordplay.

    You're interpreting this statement far too literally: 杨过所习剑法已仿怫于当年天下无敌的剑魔. I don't think JY really meant that YG was already equivalent to the DGQB that was already peerless in Wulin. Otherwise, DGQB isn't quite as legendary as we thought.

  6. #66
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    With some more thought, the HIS is even more flawed.

    The YTJ (Heaven Sword) was indestructible as well as being incomparably sharp. Being lighter, it would naturally be faster than the HIS in the hands of an equal master.

    So wouldn't the YTJ with HIS style technique beat out the HIS proper? There would be time to finish the stab and retract over the HIS. Furthermore, a lunge is possible (which can increase range over a slash type attack by almost 3 feet in some cases). And the HIS can't be used to simply break the YTJ.

    Parrying with the HIS isn't an option. First off, you'd be deviating from the simplicity theories. But more importantly, a riposte with the YTJ would put the HIS in a bad position that would be nearly unrecoverable in time due to the combination of the quickness of the YTJ as well as the heaviness of the HIS.

    The worse case scenario for the YTJ would be unable to retract in time thus mutual destruction. But the best case scenario for the HIS would be mutual destruction. The YTJ is the only only with the opportunity to win.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 03-15-08 at 03:27 PM.

  7. #67
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    I just have a quick question, was it ever mentioned in SPW that Dugu Qiubai reached the stage of "No Sword"?

    I remember SPW concentrated on "No Technique," but I don't remember if it ever talked about "No Sword."

    Thanks,.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    不能亲得这位前辈的传授
    Uhh, in case you didn't notice, the same thing applies to Linghu Chong.

    This is the most relevant sentence. It shows that JY didn't mess up when he said that YG's sword techniques weren't very good because he didn't learn much of DGQB's swordplay.
    And that would contradict the entire statement that Jin Yong just wrote.

    You're interpreting this statement far too literally: 杨过所习剑法已仿怫于当年天下无敌的剑魔. I don't think JY really meant that YG was already equivalent to the DGQB that was already peerless in Wulin. Otherwise, DGQB isn't quite as legendary as we thought.
    No, the most relevant sentence is THIS:

    可是杨过这路剑法实是独孤求败的绝技

    Yang Guo's sword technique is indeed the supreme art of Dugu Qiubai.

    This tells us, without a shadow of doubt, that Yang Guo DID learn the Heavy Iron Sword as Dugu Qiubai had invented.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  9. #69
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    And he's not even accounting for the fact that YG's Heavy Iron Sword does not actually help improve or generate that massive internal energy (that was all snake gallbladders), whereas DG9J does help increase your technique.
    As I stated many times in the past, HIS has a much higher requirement than Dugu 9 Swords. The requirement is internal energy. This is why HIS is more advanced than Dugu 9 Swords.

    Basically, he's pitting a 30-40 yr veteran of jianghu (that would be needed in order to generate the internal energy needed for HIS) against a guy fresh into the world.
    Which, again, is why HIS is more advanced, since you need to be more advanced to start learning it. I don';t know how many times I have to repeat this.

    And, for that matter, I really don't see a person using HIS who had equal internal energy to the person using DG9J beating the person with DG9J. PJ states that DG9J is not meant to be used with high internal energy, but I would love to see what proof this is based upon.
    So let me back up a little bit.

    Of course, Dugu 9 Swords CAN be used with internal energy. But by the time you've cultivated enough internal energy, I don't think you'd need Dugu 9 Swords any more. Isn't that what Feng Qingyang told Linghu Chong? Feng Qingyang said the 9 stances must eventually be forgotten. That's exactly what I see the HIS representing -- the next stage of Dugu 9 Swords.

    (actually, the above is not entirely true to my thoughts, but I'm saving the juicy details for my new post )

    But, once you have enough internal energy to move on, you CAN still choose not to. You can choose to stay with Dugu 9 Swords forever, but I don't think that's what Dugu Qiubai intended. I think Dugu Qiubai intended for you to move on to something more advanced (not necessarily the HIS, but definitely not Dugu 9 Swords either) once you have enough internal energy and experience.

    And because everything you can do with Dugu 9 Swords, you can do with HIS.
    HIS = Dugu 9 Swords + more internal energy.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Uhh, in case you didn't notice, the same thing applies to Linghu Chong.
    Not really. LHC got a full set of techniques while YG got a description of how DGQB used his sword. As I asked before, do you think that a phrase "simplicity can overcome complexity" contains more information about DGQB's swordsmanship than DG9J?

    Frankly, I think you've made up your mind on this subject. If even JY can't tell you otherwise, I don't think anyone else can.

  11. #71
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    Not really. LHC got a full set of techniques while YG got a description of how DGQB used his sword. As I asked before, do you think that a phrase "simplicity can overcome complexity" contains more information about DGQB's swordsmanship than DG9J?
    Another way to look at it is that Yang Guo received instruction from someone (or some bird, not no ordinary bird! ) who has personally seen Dugu Qiubai in action, while Linghu Chong got it from some random guy centuries later whom we have no clue how much of Dugu Qiubai's arts he really know.

    Frankly, I think you've made up your mind on this subject. If even JY can't tell you otherwise, I don't think anyone else can.
    Speak for yourself. I don't see anyone contributing to this topic compromising. Which is why this debate is getting pointless.

    And don't give me this sh*t about what Jin Yong said. You're the one who's violating Jin Yong's words left and right in the name of author's intention, ignoring and blatantly discrediting things that Jin Yong left in tact after 3 revisions.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  12. #72
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Um, I think you two are confusing something here.

    YG didn't learn the peak of DGQB's sword techniques. He couldn't have since he learned HIS which is clearly stated to not be DGQB's limit.

    He did learn and master the essence of the HIS though. There's no reason why he couldn't have since the sword itself limits the possible strokes. He also was stated by JY to have understood the theory of HIS which isn't unusual since YG was intelligent.



    As I stated many times in the past, HIS has a much higher requirement than Dugu 9 Swords. The requirement is internal energy. This is why HIS is more advanced than Dugu 9 Swords.
    The requirement for DG9J is equally high. The learner MUST be very intelligent just to begin. Even then it would take over a decade to master. But anyone trapped in a cave with a good internal energy method can gain strong (but not supreme or even Great) internal energy. And anyone with access to snake bladders WILL gain Great level internal energy.

    Most people would barely even achieve the basic essence of DG9J much less pour out never ceasing attacks from it.

    Of course, Dugu 9 Swords CAN be used with internal energy. But by the time you've cultivated enough internal energy, I don't think you'd need Dugu 9 Swords any more. Isn't that what Feng Qingyang told Linghu Chong? Feng Qingyang said the 9 stances must eventually be forgotten. That's exactly what I see the HIS representing -- the next stage of Dugu 9 Swords.
    Correction. FCY stated that the initial 9 stances must IMMEDIATELY be forgotten. This isn't because the stances have become useless; it's because the initial stances must not become a limiter. This is what it was meant when LHC was dueling with RWX and "endless stances" came out of nowhere. That's what DG9J is about. Not the initial stances, but the countless attacks that pour out limited only by the practitioner himself.


    DG9J gave LHC the ability to match up his opponents. The greater the opposing stance, the more brilliant DG9J became. But it's still LHC that devised and drove out the stances. As FCY states, when two formless masters meet, the one with greater comprehension prevails.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 03-15-08 at 03:52 PM.

  13. #73
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    Read it again, QQR was the one who attacked the weapon using his palm. The sword didn't veer off though because it was surprisingly heavy.
    Yeah, and what's wrong with Qiu Qianren attacking first? Again this even goes along with Dugu 9 Swords' theory about responding to an attack.

    If you can force the HIS user into an internal energy duel, then what's up with the whole simplicity thing? I guess there's a place for duplicity for both GWM and YG after all.
    Didn't you read what I said?
    YANG GUO COULD NOT MOVE!
    Because Little Dragon Girl was clinging on to him.

    Can Linghu Chong with Yue Lingshan clinging on to him and unable to move, defeat Abbot Fangzheng or Ren Woxing?

    Yes, and I wonder how is a practitioner of HIS supposed to acquire the internal energy? Certainly not from the technique itself.
    But it's conveniently taken care of by the snake bladder. Whether this was Dugu Qiubai's legacy we'll never know, but at least we know that it was a REQUIREMENT for learning the art.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    How am I twisting JY's words? JY directly said that YG's skills with a sword weren't particularly good. How can that be interpreted any other way?

    Nothing in JY's works shows that YG had learnt to wield a sword the same way that YG did. It has nothing to do with interpertation. All YG got about DGQB's swordsmanship was what he inferred from training with the condor and short, vague descriptions about the different stages of DGQB's career. If you really want to believe that a simple phrase is more informative about DGQB's swordsmanship than DG9J, there's nothing that I can do to make you change your mind.

  15. #75
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    Um, I think you two are confusing something here.

    YG didn't learn the peak of DGQB's sword techniques. He couldn't have since he learned HIS which is clearly stated to not be DGQB's limit.

    He did learn and master the essence of the HIS though. There's no reason why he couldn't have since the sword itself limits the possible strokes.
    No one said Yang Guo learned Dugu Qiubai's peak. The phrase "supreme art" is just a way to say that HIS is a high-level art. Just like the 72 Supreme Arts of Shaolin, they're not actually the ultimate art of Shaolin (that would be the Yijinjing).

    The requirement for DG9J is equally high. The learner MUST be extremely intelligent. Even then it would take over a decade to master. But anyone trapped in a cave with a good internal energy method can gain strong (but not supreme or even Great) internal energy. And anyone with access to snake bladders WILL gain Great level internal energy.
    Intelligence is a requirement?
    Haha, don't make me laugh.

    If you're not intelligent, you can still learn Dugu 9 Swords.
    You would just suck at using it.

    Same thing with HIS.
    If you're not intelligent, you can still wield the HIS.
    You would just suck at using it.

    Give the HIS to You Tanzhi.
    Do you think he can overcome Qiu Qianren or Golden Wheel Monk?

    Give Dugu 9 Swords to You Tanzhi.
    Do you think he can overcome Ren Woxing or Jie Feng?
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  16. #76
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Didn't you read what I said?
    YANG GUO COULD NOT MOVE!
    Because Little Dragon Girl was clinging on to him.

    Can Linghu Chong with Yue Lingshan clinging on to him and unable to move, defeat Abbot Fangzheng or Ren Woxing?
    I'll address this in two parts.


    1) Simplicity breaks all right? Even if GWM was targeting XLN, why didn't YG just smash GWM simultaneously knocking him away?

    Even though YG couldn't move, it didn't matter since he used the HIS in the proper manner and smacked it against the wheels in GWM's hands. It then immediately turned into an internal energy match.



    2) He possible can. I say possibly because I don't buy into the "magic" of DG9J always winning either. However, I can see how if LHC read the move ahead of time (as you're supposed to with DG9J) he could find a gap to stab the attacker first.

    If he were against GWM in the final situation only, LHC's chances actually INCREASE because GWM's wheels were really short while LHC uses a long sword.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Give the HIS to You Tanzhi.
    Do you think he can overcome Qiu Qianren or Golden Wheel Monk?

    Give Dugu 9 Swords to You Tanzhi.
    Do you think he can overcome Ren Woxing or Jie Feng?
    Yes. YTZ's internal power is high enough where swinging the HIS with power is enough to win against opponents like that. The main limitation of YG's HIS techniques is that he has to use the HIS. Almost any other sword would be useless with such brute force techniques. There's why a swordsman won't be able to improve his swordsmanship with YG's HIS techniques as much as he could with DG9J.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    How am I twisting JY's words? JY directly said that YG's skills with a sword weren't particularly good. How can that be interpreted any other way?
    Jin Yong said: Yang Guo's skills with a sword weren't that great.

    Jin Yong also said: Yang Guo learned the Heavy Iron Sword EXACTLY as Dugu Qiubai had learned.

    I don't see any contradictions, but you do,
    because you think Dugu Qiubai is God.
    Thus you ignore many evidences, such as this one:

    知道重剑的剑法已尽于此,不必再练,便是剑魔复生,所能传授的剑术也不过如此而已

    Even if Dugu Qiubai returned from the tomb, he would not be able to give any more instruction to Yang Guo [regarding the Heavy Iron Sword]

    Even though this comes from Yang Guo's internal thought process, I can guarantee that it's Jin Yong's intention also. We have multiple lines like this one and the one I pasted above stating that Yang Guo has learned the HIS exactly as Dugu Qiubai has. You cannot conveniently ignore those evidences because they come from Jin Yong himself. And you have failed to provide a satisfying model of Dugu Qiubai's swordsmanship. But that's what I intend to do shortly.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    Yes. YTZ's internal power is high enough where swinging the HIS with power is enough to win against opponents like that. The main limitation of YG's HIS techniques is that he has to use the HIS. Almost any other sword would be useless with such brute force techniques. There's why a swordsman won't be able to improve his swordsmanship with YG's HIS techniques as much as he could with DG9J.
    Are you saying that one is supposed to stay with HIS forever?
    Because we know that's definitely not the case.
    HIS is supposed to be replaced with the wooden sword,
    and later no sword.
    We know that's how Dugu Qiubai himself progressed in ROCH./

    But please, understand that I am not insisting Dugu Qiubai progressed the same way in SPW. In fact, I am not insisting such an opinion at all....
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I just have a quick question, was it ever mentioned in SPW that Dugu Qiubai reached the stage of "No Sword"?

    I remember SPW concentrated on "No Technique," but I don't remember if it ever talked about "No Sword."
    Yes, I think DG9J might really be part of the "No Sword" stage. Why? Because Feng Qingyang once lectured about how stupid LHC was. He told him that "even his hands could be used as a sword." Evidence of the "No Sword" stage.

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    By Extremer88 in forum Wuxia Fiction
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    Last Post: 03-24-06, 12:36 PM

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