Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 125

Thread: Dugu Qiubai: did Jin Yong mess up his story?

  1. #81
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,395

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    I'll address this in two parts.


    1) Simplicity breaks all right? Even if GWM was targeting XLN, why didn't YG just smash GWM simultaneously knocking him away?
    Golden Wheel Monk didn't even go near the couple. He was meters away and throwing his wheels at them.

    Even though YG couldn't move, it didn't matter since he used the HIS in the proper manner and smacked it against the wheels in GWM's hands. It then immediately turned into an internal energy match.
    By the way, that was the FIRST TIME Yang Guo had EVER used the HIS in combat. You gotta cut him some slack.

    2) He possible can. I say possibly because I don't buy into the "magic" of DG9J always winning either. However, I can see how if LHC read the move ahead of time (as you're supposed to with DG9J) he could find a gap to stab the attacker first.
    Possibly, but the chances aren't high IMO.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  2. #82
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    2,858

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    No one said Yang Guo learned Dugu Qiubai's peak. The phrase "supreme art" is just a way to say that HIS is a high-level art. Just like the 72 Supreme Arts of Shaolin, they're not actually the ultimate art of Shaolin (that would be the Yijinjing).
    I read between the lines here because the argument borders on silly for that particular segment.



    Intelligence is a requirement?
    Haha, don't make me laugh.
    Why shouldn't it be? FCY himself declared it.

    Furthermore, the initial step is to memorize a really long passage. Then to actually use it requires being able to recall any section immediately. And then it doesn't even seem to logically connect so you can't exploit patterns to memorize it.




    If you're not intelligent, you can still learn Dugu 9 Swords.
    You would just suck at using it.

    Same thing with HIS.
    If you're not intelligent, you can still wield the HIS.
    You would just suck at using it.

    Give the HIS to You Tanzhi.
    Do you think he can overcome Qiu Qianren or Golden Wheel Monk?

    Give Dugu 9 Swords to You Tanzhi.
    Do you think he can overcome Ren Woxing or Jie Feng?
    Well, by that argument, you don't need internal energy to use the HIS either.

    I can certainly lift an 80 pound 1 meter long rod and even swing it once. Wow, I'm executing HIS technique! But I can only use it once because I suck at it.

  3. #83
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    908

    Default

    We're talking about two different things. I'm talking about what JY has said in an interview as opposed to what was written in ROCH. JY basically told us that YG's sword skills were inferior to DG9J although his internal power was superior to LHC. Of course, it's much easier for him to tell us that in an interview than chaning ROCH to explictly state that YG wasn't a very good swordsman.

    I agreed with you that what was in ROCH implied that YG was on the right track to learning DGQB's swordsmanship. But like I said before, after SPW, JY had changed his mind on the subject. It's certainly much easier and less offensive to readers for JY to approach the subject again in SPW than to go back and make big changes to ROCH.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    And you have failed to provide a satisfying model of Dugu Qiubai's swordsmanship. But that's what I intend to do shortly.
    I showed you exactly what YG learned from his experiences in DGQB's tomb. Like I sad before, do you really think that a vauge description of DGQB"s abilities contains more info about his swordsmanship than DG9J? Even for WUXIA, it's pretty ridiculous for YG to come up exactly with DGQB's swordsmanship simply based on a few descriptions and practicing with DGQB's condor. YG learned DGQB's regimen to improve one's physical capabilties but not one's ability to wield a sword. It's the difference between learning MJ's weight training regimen and learning his basketball skills.

  4. #84
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    2,858

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Golden Wheel Monk didn't even go near the couple. He was meters away and throwing his wheels at them.
    At this point YG had broken several of GWM's wheels already and so GWM decided to engage in closer combat (and in typical dirty fashion, targetting XLN).


    By the way, that was the FIRST TIME Yang Guo had EVER used the HIS in combat. You gotta cut him some slack.
    But he was using it properly. It's supposed to be simplicity so you WOULD just swing or stab it towards your opponent. YG's training with the HIS didn't teach him how to look for gaps in his opponents' attacks.


    Possibly, but the chances aren't high IMO.
    I completely agree with this.


    Jin Yong said: Yang Guo's skills with a sword weren't that great.

    Jin Yong also said: Yang Guo learned the Heavy Iron Sword EXACTLY as Dugu Qiubai had learned.

    I don't see any contradictions
    This is also true. In fact, I had thought this was one of the premises >_>
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 03-15-08 at 04:20 PM.

  5. #85
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,395

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    We're talking about two different things. I'm talking about what JY has said in an interview as opposed to what was written in ROCH. JY basically told us that YG's sword skills were inferior to DG9J although his internal power was superior to LHC. Of course, it's much easier for him to tell us in an interview than chaning ROCH to exlictly state that YG wasn't a very good swordsman.

    I agreed with you that what was in ROCH implied that YG was on the right track to learning DGQB's swordsmanship. But like I said before, after SPW, JY had changed his mind on the subject. It's certainly much easier and less offensive to readers for JY to approach the subject again in SPW than to go back and make big changes to ROCH.
    Jin Yong didn't juse change his opinion on Yang Guo's sword skills.
    He changed his opinion on Dugu Qiubai's sword progression as well.

    In fact like bliss (and maybe even you) said, Jin Yong changed his entire philosophy on swordsmanship.

    Were it just a matter of Yang Guo's swordplay, it wouldn't be a big deal.

    But now what we have are inconsistent models of Demonic Swordsman Dugu Qiubai! In ROCH he was a person who relied on internal energy and possibly speed. There was NOTHING in ROCH that said Dugu Qiubai did anything resembling "no technique overcomes technique". But in SPW, he was a person who thrived on something more sophisticated.

    In ROCH, Dugu Qiubai's model was: Overcoming the sword without a sword.

    In SPW, Dugu Qiubai's model was: Overcoming technique without technique OR sword.

    Yes, I do agree that the SPW model of Dugu Qiubai seems to be more mature and more savvy.

    But then, the question is, if Jin Yong had a different vision for Dugu Qiubai, why didn't he just change the person into somebody else. Why did he stick with using the same guy for make him inconsistent with ROCH? You see, this is my beef with Jin Yong. He probably should have just picked a whole new character. Maybe even one of Dugu Qiubai's rivals' sons or something who overcame Dugu Qiubai's theories...
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  6. #86
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    2,858

    Default

    Hold up. Overcoming technique without technique or sword? That isn't quite right.

    The whole formlessness theory applied to the whole of martial arts even in SPW. RWX was likely to be formless or close to it despite being predominantly a bare hands fighter.



    I think JY just refined his thoughts about it such that the limit of a great martial artist would be the martial artist himself. It shouldn't be limited by what technique or internal energy method or weapon you start with or gain on the way.

    Sure they will certainly be a large boon but all three, even internal energy, will one day become a limit as long as you strive to improve yourself.

    Fixed technique is limited to its own stances; it doesn't even come close to mastery.

    A special weapon is obviously a limit if you depend on it. If you don't have it with you for some reason you're in trouble?

    Internal energy seems to plateau out a bit or at least even out. All the Greats had similar internal energy. GJ, YG, ZWJ, ZSF, GWM all ended up with similar internal energy. We can speculate about further improvements, but is it really likely that any of them will gain a huge advantage over the others via internal energy?
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 03-15-08 at 04:31 PM.

  7. #87
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    908

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Jin Yong didn't juse change his opinion on Yang Guo's sword skills.
    He changed his opinion on Dugu Qiubai's sword progression as well.

    In fact like bliss (and maybe even you) said, Jin Yong changed his entire philosophy on swordsmanship.

    Were it just a matter of Yang Guo's swordplay, it wouldn't be a big deal.

    But now what we have are inconsistent models of Demonic Swordsman Dugu Qiubai! In ROCH he was a person who relied on internal energy and possibly speed. There was NOTHING in ROCH that said Dugu Qiubai did anything resembling "no technique overcomes technique". But in SPW, he was a person who thrived on something more sophisticated.

    In ROCH, Dugu Qiubai's model was: Overcoming the sword without a sword.

    In SPW, Dugu Qiubai's model was: Overcoming technique without technique OR sword.

    Yes, I do agree that the SPW model of Dugu Qiubai seems to be more mature and more savvy.

    But then, the question is, if Jin Yong had a different vision for Dugu Qiubai, why didn't he just change the person into somebody else. Why did he stick with using the same guy for make him inconsistent with ROCH? You see, this is my beef with Jin Yong. He probably should have just picked a whole new character. Maybe even one of Dugu Qiubai's rivals' sons or something who overcame Dugu Qiubai's theories...
    The thing is we don't actually know anything about DGQB's sword techniques in ROCH. Overcoming the sword without a sword is some ZENish philosophy that doesn't actually describe how that level can be reached. SPW is when we actually find out how DGQB's sword techniques actually work. It's like seeing a description of XL18XZ as opposed to seeing them in action. Like others have said, there's really nothing about DG9J that precludes it from working with the stages that were described in ROCH. Even though the final stage is "swordless", I don't think it meant that the swordsman stops being a swordsman. It just means you've reached such a high level as a swordsman where a physical sword isn't necessary anymore.


    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Are you saying that one is supposed to stay with HIS forever?
    The way that YG used a sword? Yes. Because his techniques are useless with a normal sword against someone with similar internal power. If YG had kept his swordsmanip on the same path, he would never be able to progress beyond that limitation.

    Like I've been saying all along, YG's HIS techniques aren't the same as DGQB's. It makes sense since YG didn't actually learn any of DGQB's sword techniques, aside from what he can infer from praticing with the condor. In my previous thread, I had already mentioned that I don't believe moving to the wodden sword stage merely meant being able to use a wooden sword in the same manner as a HIS.

    YG's internal power was already so high at the end of the book yet he failed miserably with a normal, metal sword. Is it more likely that YG had to improve his internal power exponentially for DGQB's next stage or is it more likely that he had to wield a sword differently? Since YG's internal power was already so high, I believe the 2nd scenario is more likely.

  8. #88
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,395

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    Hold up. Overcoming technique without technique or sword? That isn't quite right.

    The whole formlessness theory applied to the whole of martial arts even in SPW. RWX was likely to be formless or close to it despite being predominantly a bare hands fighter.
    I'm just talking about Dugu 9 Swords' theory.
    Isn't the essence to overcome technique without technique?
    The "without sword" part comes later,
    like when Feng Qingyang alluded to executing sword stances with the finger.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  9. #89
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    908

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    But now what we have are inconsistent models of Demonic Swordsman Dugu Qiubai!
    Is that really surprising? Just look at how many characters change quite drastically from LOCH to ROCH. GJ wasn't quite as dumb anymore. WCY was far pettier a person than we thought. ZBT consciously used 9YIN even though he was so vehement against using it in LOCH. JY just doesn't care about consistency or details as much as he does about telling a good story.

  10. #90
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    2,858

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I'm just talking about Dugu 9 Swords' theory.
    Isn't the essence to overcome technique without technique?
    The "without sword" part comes later,
    like when Feng Qingyang alluded to executing sword stances with the finger.
    Ah, that's not quite it. It's more about not giving the opponent any way to beat you.

    You must achieve control. One method is DG9J's attack first philosophy.

    You don't rely on fixed stances, thus the opponent has nothing to easily work against. In fact the stance itself isn't important, it's the result. Of course you need a great deal of martial arts experience and theory to be able to HAVE the correct intent for attacks. DG9J is a comprehensive method of beginning along this road.

    You read your opponent's attacks to the point of their intentions (this applies even if they're formless since we are, after all, physical) and thus can break them all if your ingenuity allows it. Again DG9J provides a framework for this.

    Finally, you don't allow anything to limit yourself. This doesn't mean you ignore a good weapon, randomly wave your sword without intent or don't train internal energy. It means that those are all secondary to the goal. Which is to destroy your opponent without allowing him to do the same to you.

  11. #91
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,395

    Default PJ's Dual Path Theory (DPT)

    To Wu Wudi: I think we almost agree on a lot of things. The thing I don';t agree with you is that you think Yang Guo followed the wrong path of Dugu Qiubai. I don't agree with this because Yang Guo did everything right in ROCH, but damn that Dugu Qiubai, his philosophy changed across time and space! I can see Yang Guo turning in his grave:

    Dugu Qiubai: Yang Guo, you have dishonored my martial arts. You have failed to yield a high level in my swordsmanship.

    Yang Guo: But master, I did everything as you had instructed.

    Dugu Qiubai: Yes, but that was in your story. Didn't you know, my philosophy completely changed 400 years later? That's the correct one.

    Yang Guo: But... but...

    Dugu Qiubai: Silence! You are a disgrace.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    OK seriously, here is how I interpret that interview by Jin Yong.

    When Jin Yong said that Linghu Chong's swordsmanship is better than Yang Guo's swordsmanship, I don't think it necessarily alludes to Yang Guo having done something wrong with ROCH Dugu Qiubai's path. I believe there are actually TWO PATHS to Dugu Qiubai's ultimate level of swordsmanship.

    PJ's Dual Path Theory (DPT)

    Assume Dugu Qiubai had ONE ultimate stage: OVERCOMING the sword and techniques WITHOUT a sword OR a technique., which I will abbreviate simply as "No Sword".

    The path to get there, as presented in ROCH, was described in 5 stages:

    1) Sharp/Ferocious Sword -> 2) Purple Sword -> 3) Heavy Iron Sword -> 4) Wooden Sword -> 5) No Sword

    The path is different, and much simpler, in SPW:

    1-4) Dugu 9 Swords -> 5) No Sword

    In my opinion, Dugu 9 Swords is in fact the encompassment of the first 4 stages of ROCH Dugu Qiubai's path! Dugu 9 Swords is extremely efficient and comprehensive, so as to be able to substitute for a total of 4 stages of sword progression.

    Why do I think that Dugu 9 Swords can replace HIS and WS? Because Feng Qingyang alluded to using your finger to execute sword stances. This would take place AFTER the WS stage.

    In fact, I believe one who trains Dugu 9 Swords will get to the No Sword stage faster than if he trained the ROCH path. I think Jin Yong's SPW model is more refined and hip than the ROCH model, the same qualifies that can be said about Dugu 9 Swords.

    However, I do NOT believe that the ROCH model and the SPW model can coexist. That is to say, I do not believe that we can logically fit Dugu 9 Swords into the ROCH model, or fit the HIS into the SPW model. Because I don't think Jin Yong even bothered to keep them consistent (and thus, the many inconsistencies). Of course, gauging the author's intention is always tricky, so if you think they can coexist, please explain your thoughts.
    Last edited by PJ; 03-15-08 at 05:41 PM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  12. #92
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,395

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    Is that really surprising? Just look at how many characters change quite drastically from LOCH to ROCH. GJ wasn't quite as dumb anymore. WCY was far pettier a person than we thought. ZBT consciously used 9YIN even though he was so vehement against using it in LOCH. JY just doesn't care about consistency or details as much as he does about telling a good story.
    Those are personality changes, or expansions of a minor character.
    But what he did with Dugu Qiubai are FACTUAL changes.
    Personality can be changed, but not inconsistent facts.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  13. #93
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,395

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    Ah, that's not quite it. It's more about not giving the opponent any way to beat you.

    You must achieve control. One method is DG9J's attack first philosophy.

    You don't rely on fixed stances, thus the opponent has nothing to easily work against. In fact the stance itself isn't important, it's the result. Of course you need a great deal of martial arts experience and theory to be able to HAVE the correct intent for attacks. DG9J is a comprehensive method of beginning along this road.

    You read your opponent's attacks to the point of their intentions (this applies even if they're formless since we are, after all, physical) and thus can break them all if your ingenuity allows it. Again DG9J provides a framework for this.

    Finally, you don't allow anything to limit yourself. This doesn't mean you ignore a good weapon, randomly wave your sword without intent or don't train internal energy. It means that those are all secondary to the goal. Which is to destroy your opponent without allowing him to do the same to you.
    Thanks.
    I was trying to come up with a summary in 10 words or less
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  14. #94
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Currently DC
    Posts
    6,579

    Default

    Actually PJ, that post of yours was something very, very similar to something Laviathan posted (or maybe Moinllieon?) about DG9J; that it was the synthesis of all the stages. Since we don't know when or where DG9J was created though, I don't know that it's not compatible with the ROCH model.
    Read the latest chapters of Coiling Dragon at Wuxia World!

  15. #95
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,395

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    The way that YG used a sword? Yes. Because his techniques are useless with a normal sword against someone with similar internal power. If YG had kept his swordsmanip on the same path, he would never be able to progress beyond that limitation.
    As I stated before, Yang Guo made a bad judgment to thrust a delicate blade against a bigger weapon. If Zhang Wuji thrust his wooden sword against the Heavenly Sword, the wooden sword would've shattered too. The difference is that Zhang Wuji made a good judgment (he was, after all, taught directly), whereas Yang Guo made a bad judgment.

    I don't believe that Yang Guo can't even grasp that simple concept. We saw how Taiji Sword incorporated the same concept as Dugu 9 Swords about not making contact with your opponent's superior weapon. I believe Yang Guo knows the same; he just made a bad judgment to test the maximum power of his opponent.

    Like I've been saying all along, YG's HIS techniques aren't the same as DGQB's.
    This is where we disagree. I think Yang Guo learned exactly Dugu Qiubai's HIS. It's Dugu Qiubai who changed, not Yang Guo who failed.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  16. #96
    Senior Member Tom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,214

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    if you think they can coexist, please explain your thoughts.
    I think they coexist. Here's my thoughts,

    What makes you think that Dugu Qiubai didn't use the Dugu 9 Jian throughout his life? Of course, by this I mean that he started developing his swordplay since the beginning and continued to refine it throughout his life.

    First Stage: Short Sword. Little or no DG9J.

    Second Stage: Long Flexible Sword. Still relied on techniques but has probably started developing the idea of DG9J.

    Third Stage: Heavy Iron Sword. Continued to develop his DG9J. His HIS is proof that he's starting to think that simplicity>complexity.

    Fourth Stage: Wooden Sword. By this time, his sword skills should have reached a very high level. DG9J's theory should be about complete.

    Fifth Stage: No Sword. He has mastered DG9J and has probably even moved onwards. But because of his lack of competition, he decides to retire and live with Brother Condor.


    At around stage 3-5, DGQB should have taught a disciple. This disciple is responsible for teaching other people.


    I don't see any contradictions between the two stories in my theory of DGQB's life. What do you guys think?

  17. #97
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    908

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    To Wu Wudi: I think we almost agree on a lot of things. The thing I don';t agree with you is that you think Yang Guo followed the wrong path of Dugu Qiubai. I don't agree with this because Yang Guo did everything right in ROCH, but damn that Dugu Qiubai, his philosophy changed across time and space! I can see Yang Guo turning in his grave:

    Dugu Qiubai: Yang Guo, you have dishonored my martial arts. You have failed to yield a high level in my swordsmanship.

    Yang Guo: But master, I did everything as you had instructed.

    Dugu Qiubai: Yes, but that was in your story. Didn't you know, my philosophy completely changed 400 years later? That's the correct one.

    Yang Guo: But... but...

    Dugu Qiubai: Silence! You are a disgrace.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    OK seriously, here is how I interpret that interview by Jin Yong.

    When Jin Yong said that Linghu Chong's swordsmanship is better than Yang Guo's swordsmanship, I don't think it necessarily alludes to Yang Guo having done something wrong with ROCH Dugu Qiubai's path. I believe there are actually TWO PATHS to Dugu Qiubai's ultimate level of swordsmanship.

    PJ's Dual Path Theory (DPT)

    Assume Dugu Qiubai had ONE ultimate stage: OVERCOMING the sword and techniques WITHOUT a sword OR a technique., which I will abbreviate simply as "No Sword".

    The path to get there, as presented in ROCH, was described in 5 stages:

    1) Sharp/Ferocious Sword -> 2) Purple Sword -> 3) Heavy Iron Sword -> 4) Wooden Sword -> 5) No Sword

    The path is different, and much simpler, in SPW:

    Dugu 9 Swords -> No Sword

    In my opinion, Dugu 9 Swords is in fact the encompassment of the first 4 stages of ROCH Dugu Qiubai's path! Dugu 9 Swords is extremely efficient and comprehensive, so as to be able to substitute for a total of 4 stages of sword progression.

    Why do I think that Dugu 9 Swords can replace HIS and WS? Because Feng Qingyang alluded to using your finger to execute sword stances. This would take place AFTER the WS stage.

    In fact, I believe one who trains Dugu 9 Swords will get to the No Sword stage faster than if he trained the ROCH path. I think Jin Yong's SPW model is more refined and hip than the ROCH model, the same qualifies that can be said about Dugu 9 Swords.

    However, I do NOT believe that the ROCH model and the SPW model can coexist. That is to say, I do not believe that we can logically fit Dugu 9 Swords into the ROCH model, or fit the HIS into the SPW model. Because I don't think Jin Yong even bothered to keep them consistent (and thus, the many inconsistencies). Of course, gauging the author's intention is always tricky, so if you think they can coexist, please explain your thoughts.
    The only problem I have with that analysis is that YG didn't actually learn DGQB's sword wielding techniques. If we believed that YG used the HIS just like DGQB, we'd have to assume that YG somehow created the same set of sword techniques as DGQB without actually having access to them. It just seems a bit unlikely, which is why I believe that JY clarified about how YG missed out on a chunk of DGQB's sword techniques.

    However, the way ROCH was written, I can certainly understand why anyone would think that YG did master the same sword skills as DGQB. That's why this debate is so frustrating. There really is no way that YG could have known how DGQB wielded his sword yet JY seems to say otherwise in ROCH.

    Now that I think about it, I think the Michael Jordan example that I brought up can really be applied here. YG is like someone that learned to run and jump like MJ while LHC is someone that learned MJ's skills with a basketball. MJ's athletic abilities would benefit a normal player much quicker but the basketball skills are more useful if that player can somehow reach MJ's athletic level.

  18. #98
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    908

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Those are personality changes, or expansions of a minor character.
    But what he did with Dugu Qiubai are FACTUAL changes.
    Personality can be changed, but not inconsistent facts.
    But based on what we know, there's just no way that ZBT would ever consciously go against his promise to WCY. Also, GJ didn't just get smarter the way an adult would. His IQ went up significantly as shown by how much more eloquantly he spoke. GJ's IQ increase is a factual change that was never explained.

  19. #99
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    2,858

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    The only problem I have with that analysis is that YG didn't actually learn DGQB's sword wielding techniques. If we believed that YG used the HIS just like DGQB, we'd have to assume that YG somehow created the same set of sword techniques as DGQB without actually having access to them. It just seems a bit unlikely, which is why I believe that JY clarified about how YG missed out on a chunk of DGQB's sword techniques.
    That's where the simplicity part comes in.

    Physically, there are only 9 strokes possible with the HIS (I'm making the assumption that there's some reality basis in the very deep center of this). It was the combination of the theory, the weapon and the internal energy that made it such a potent technique.

    Because of that, YG's own intelligence was sufficient for him to wield the HIS in the same spirit as DGQB did (in DGQB's HIS stage).

  20. #100
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,395

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    But based on what we know, there's just no way that ZBT would ever consciously go against his promise to WCY. Also, GJ didn't just get smarter the way an adult would. His IQ went up significantly as shown by how much more eloquantly he spoke. GJ's IQ increase is a factual change that was never explained.
    As someone who recently had a significant personality transformation (I'll spare you the details), I can tell you that from my own experience, it is possible to do with Guo Jing did. I was similar to Guo Jing prior to the transformation. My speech, communication, and presentation skills were bottom of the line. After the transformation (which took about 3 months), I saw a dramatic improvement in these areas. I spoke more eloquently, my mannerism improved, and my approach became more tactful. I also learned to look at things in a different way, which helped with the transformation.

    As for Zhou Botong, I have no idea.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

Similar Threads

  1. Wong Chongyang or Dugu Qiubai
    By Dennis Chen in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 118
    Last Post: 04-26-14, 03:22 AM
  2. Replies: 40
    Last Post: 05-09-10, 02:50 AM
  3. Dugu Qiubai doubters take note
    By PJ in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 94
    Last Post: 03-24-10, 03:15 PM
  4. Xiao Feng vs. Dugu Qiubai
    By Dennis Chen in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 133
    Last Post: 03-24-10, 08:42 AM
  5. Dugu Qiubai article
    By Extremer88 in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-24-06, 12:36 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •