Dugu Qiubai: did Jin Yong mess up his story?

[PJ]

This quote from bliss is a good reflection of my current theory about Dugu Qiubai and Dugu 9 Swords:

In addition, from the thread I bumped earlier, the consensus seemed to be that Dugu 9 Jian was a sword technique that trained the user how to approach the ideas of formlessness that Dugu Qiubai probably developed in his much later years, after he accumulated all his knowledge into one.

Yes, this is exactly what I think. Using Ren Wo Xing's words, I believe that Dugu 9 Swords is the synthesis of all the stages (maybe even the No Sword stage). I also believe that Dugu 9 Swords was not used by Dugu Qiubai to compete, because it would've been developed later. Dugu 9 Swords is so comprehensive that I find it hard to believe it could have been invented by a young Dugu Qiubai who hadn't reached the Wooden Sword stage yet, because Dugu 9 Swords already somewhat encompasses the Wooden Sword.

The trouble lies in Feng Qingyang's words. He said: "When senior master Dugu took on the entire Martial World with this set of Dugu Nine Swords many years ago" This literally means that Dugu Qiubai used Dugu 9 Swords to compete with the heroes of the martial world, which would contradict with the theory that he didn't invent Dugu 9 Swords until he retired.

[PJ]

I think they coexist. Here's my thoughts,

What makes you think that Dugu Qiubai didn't use the Dugu 9 Jian throughout his life? Of course, by this I mean that he started developing his swordplay since the beginning and continued to refine it throughout his life.

First Stage: Short Sword. Little or no DG9J.

Second Stage: Long Flexible Sword. Still relied on techniques but has probably started developing the idea of DG9J.

Third Stage: Heavy Iron Sword. Continued to develop his DG9J. His HIS is proof that he's starting to think that simplicity>complexity.

Fourth Stage: Wooden Sword. By this time, his sword skills should have reached a very high level. DG9J's theory should be about complete.

Fifth Stage: No Sword. He has mastered DG9J and has probably even moved onwards. But because of his lack of competition, he decides to retire and live with Brother Condor.


At around stage 3-5, DGQB should have taught a disciple. This disciple is responsible for teaching other people.


I don't see any contradictions between the two stories in my theory of DGQB's life. What do you guys think?

You know, I really like your theory,
that Dugu 9 Swords was refined gradually
instead of being invented in a short fixed duration.

There is some room to play with Feng Qingyang's words.
According to your theory, what Feng Qingyang said isn't literally true,
it should instead be:

"Master Dugu used the predecessors of these 9 techniques to compete with the heroes of the martial world..."

[ChronoReverse]

I really don't like the inscription in ROCH. It sounds all mysterious but it really doesn't make any sense.

Theory must always be supported by fact. Old Man Sun vs SGGH in Sentimental Swordsman is the best example of this.

If DGQB was really looking for a good match, it doesn't make any sense for him to completely avoid outside contact. People come out of caves and climb out of valleys all the time in wuxia. There are always hidden martial art masters in the woodwork. If anything, DGQB should have been wandering all his life instead of hiding in a valley.


Something like Bogeyman's interpretation is far more reasonable and quite palatable.

[PJ]

If DGQB was really looking for a good match, it doesn't make any sense for him to completely avoid outside contact. People come out of caves and climb out of valleys all the time in wuxia. There are always hidden martial art masters in the woodwork. If anything, DGQB should have been wandering all his life instead of hiding in a valley.

I think it makes sense that he would eventually run out of the steam that is hope. If he wandered for 10 years without finding a match, I can understand that he'd be disappointed. Hell, if I went around actively seeking a girlfriend for 10 years without finding any success, I'd probably want to get killed

Also, He was probably too lonely to get good information. We know that Huang Shang and Wang Chongyang also existed around Dugu Qiubai's time. Did he fight them? Why not? One reason could be due to Dugu Qiubai's lonesomeness and lack of information.

[Wu Wudi]

As someone who recently had a significant personality transformation (I'll spare you the details), I can tell you that from my own experience, it is possible to do with Guo Jing did. I was similar to Guo Jing prior to the transformation. My speech, communication, and presentation skills were bottom of the line. After the transformation (which took about 3 months), I saw a dramatic improvement in these areas. I spoke more eloquently, my mannerism improved, and my approach became more tactful. I also learned to look at things in a different way, which helped with the transformation.

As for Zhou Botong, I have no idea.

I think you give yourself too little credit. Aren't you a PH.D or PH.D student? Passing college would have been a huge struggle for GJ.

The trouble lies in Feng Qingyang's words. He said: "When senior master Dugu took on the entire Martial World with this set of Dugu Nine Swords many years ago" This literally means that Dugu Qiubai used Dugu 9 Swords to compete with the heroes of the martial world, which would contradict with the theory that he didn't invent Dugu 9 Swords until he retired.

Maybe we're caring too much about the details? As has been shown in the past, JY is less concerend about the details than his readers are. He most likely wasn't thinking about correlating DG9J to the stage where DGQB was mentioned as having become #1.

Also, just because someone's retired, it doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't have any more fights. Many greats are retired from Wulin in their later years yet occasionally they are drawn to fights. FCY could be talking about DGQB's whole career as opposed to just the period where he was fighting much more often.

It's also likely that FCY didn't even really know exactly when DGQB created DG9J. FCY could merely be saying that DGQB, with DG9J, was an invincible swordsman.

[PJ]

I think you give yourself too little credit. Aren't you a PH.D or PH.D student? Passing college would have been a huge struggle for GJ.

Success in college has more to do with your ability to pass exams. In real life, there are no exams. There are only the people and things that can make or break you.

It's also likely that FCY didn't even really know exactly when DGQB created DG9J. FCY could merely be saying that DGQB, with DG9J, was an invincible swordsman.

Yes, I think that's what Feng Qingyang was trying to say. However, I think he's wrong about one detail. I don't believe that Dugu Qiubai actually used Dugu 9 Swords in combat. I believe that Dugu 9 Swords was invented/completed after Dugu Qiubai had surpassed the stages encompassed by Dugu 9 Swords. I believe what really happened was that Dugu Qiubai used the precursor Dugu 9 Swords to compete with the martial world.

Therefore, my logical model of Dugu Qiubai is:

Dugu Qiubai went through the stages described in ROCH to get to the ultimate stage of No Sword. After he achieved that ultimate stage, he realized that the training he followed wasn't perfect. Thus, he conceived the comprehensive Dugu 9 Swords as we see in SPW, as the most smooth and effective training method to reach supremacy in the way of the sword.

[ChronoReverse]

I think it makes sense that he would eventually run out of the steam that is hope. If he wandered for 10 years without finding a match, I can understand that he'd be disappointed. Hell, if I went around actively seeking a girlfriend for 10 years without finding any success, I'd probably want to get killed

Also, He was probably too lonely to get good information. We know that Huang Shang and Wang Chongyang also existed around Dugu Qiubai's time. Did he fight them? Why not? One reason could be due to Dugu Qiubai's lonesomeness and lack of information.

Well, 10 years isn't really that long for a martial artist. And China is an enormous area. You'd think someone with such great focus in the way of the sword would have more patience in looking for opponents

[PJ]

Well, 10 years isn't really that long for a martial artist. And China is an enormous area. You'd think someone with such great focus in the way of the sword would have more patience in looking for opponents

Another factor that would work against Dugu Qiubai being too active during his time is that he was relatively unknown 80 years later. Although there's no affirmation that the Greats definitely hadn't heard of him, there was no affirmation that anyone has actually heard of him either. I think his story is one of the great Disconnected Detours of Jin Yong wuxia.

[Wu Wudi]

Dugu Qiubai went through the stages described in ROCH to get to the ultimate stage of No Sword. After he achieved that ultimate stage, he realized that the training he followed wasn't perfect. Thus, he conceived the comprehensive Dugu 9 Swords as we see in SPW, as the most smooth and effective training method to reach supremacy in the way of the sword.

I'm glad DG9J only appeared once. Otherwise, JY would have come up with some BS about DG18J becoming DG9J after DGQB had gotten rid of the redundant moves.

If your theory is right, and FCY did master DG9J, he would be much powerful than we think. I've always thought that it was possible for FQY to be even more powerful than DFBB althought there's really no way to know for sure.

Another factor that would work against Dugu Qiubai being too active during his time is that he was relatively unknown 80 years later. Although there's no affirmation that the Greats definitely hadn't heard of him, there was no affirmation that anyone has actually heard of him either. I think his story is one of the great Disconnected Detours of Jin Yong wuxia.

Whenever JY brings up an old character, it's just mostly fan service to make the current story more interesting to readers who've read his previous works. I don't think he was thinking of legacy when he created DGQB. It makes no sense that no one remembered DGQB when even a lesser figure like the original Iron Palm leader was still being remembered. It was also metioned in post-Song era that Damo and Z3F are the two greatest MA figures even though we know that many people witnessed the sweeper monk's great feats.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Yes, I think that's what Feng Qingyang was trying to say. However, I think he's wrong about one detail. I don't believe that Dugu Qiubai actually used Dugu 9 Swords in combat. I believe that Dugu 9 Swords was invented/completed after Dugu Qiubai had surpassed the stages encompassed by Dugu 9 Swords. I believe what really happened was that Dugu Qiubai used the precursor Dugu 9 Swords to compete with the martial world.

I would fully concur here.

[Tom]

So you guys agree with my theory? Correct it if you feel that it goes against what is said in the stories.

[PJ]

Whew, I certainly feel like I gained a lot of insight from this discussion. Thanks to ChronoReverse, Wu Wudi, bliss, Ren Ying Ying, The Bogeyman formerly known as TommyH, Ren Wo Xing, and anyone else who exchanged information with me.

There is one more thing that I would like to say. It goes back to a point made by Wu Wudi:

Also, why isn't it acceptable to think that DG9J wasn't mentioned in ROCH because JY hadn't thought of it yet? It's a perfectly reasonable answer. We can't just pretend that SPW wasn't written years after ROCH. In fact, I believe that readers too often neglect the chronology of JY's works when discussing about them.

As someone who enjoys writing and story telling, I completely understand the notion of approaching an established entity with updated visions. Many times when writers and filmmakers do a sequel, they present insightful but slightly contradictory information. For example, when the prequel and sequel to the popular HK movie Infernal Affairs (2002) came out, they gave us a lot more information about Andy Lau and Tony Leung's characters, but they were not totally coherent with the original story.

While I don't necessarily agree with it, I understand Infernal Affairs II and III for exploring the creative side of writing, and producing new exciting content, at the expense of slightly distorting the coherence of the Trilogy. It's the same thing with SPW & Dugu Qiubai. It would be nice if everything about the man were nicely coherent, but it's also exciting when we discover new things about the man that we didn't know before, even if it diverges slightly from the established information.

So, in the end, I would just say that I understand where Jin Yong is coming from, and I don't really fault him for it deep in my mind. If sometimes I sound hypercritical of these things, it's probably just a "heat of the moment" thing and not my true intentions.

[Wu Wudi]

PJ, kudos to you also. You contributed most to this discussion. Your questioning led me to think about the subject in ways that I've never thought of before.

[PJ]

Your questioning led me to think about the subject in ways that I've never thought of before.

I am so glad to hear that! And the same goes for your insightful points.
I believe acquiring different perspectives is what improves our understanding.
I am glad we were able to achieve that with this discussion.

[Ren Ying Ying]

This quote from bliss is a good reflection of my current theory about Dugu Qiubai and Dugu 9 Swords:

when exactly did dugu qiubai "retire"?

i cannot find anywhere that indicated that dugu qiubai retired prior to completing the "no sword" stage

[PJ]

when exactly did dugu qiubai "retire"?

i cannot find anywhere that indicated that dugu qiubai retired prior to completing the "no sword" stage

I don't think it said when he went into hiding,
but we know that he was still active before his 40s,
because it said he traveled the world with the HIS prior to his 40s.
After that, dunno.

[ChanceEncounter]

Damn PJ's linking to old threads.

I think there's a significant amount of leeway with the way JY described it.

We know a few things that JY has said in the novels:

1.) The form after the HIS of DGQB was the wooden sword. Then the no sword stage.

2.) FQY said that DGQB took on the wulin world with the DG9J, or at least the precursor (which could include the HIS).

3.) JY said that, because DGQB did not leave a manuscript, YG's sword techniques were not very advanced, implying the LHC was the better swordsman.

Thus, we can make a few inferences. DGQB developed the DG9J before retiring, he also used the Heavy Iron Sword. The HIS that YG then developed was a technique independent to DG9J. We don't know of the relationship between HIS and DG9J as pertaining to DGQB. Save for the conjecture (that I believe is rather unreasonable) regarding DGQB of SPW and ROCH being DIFFERENT people, we are left with a figure that knows both DG9J and HIS.

However, JY himself said that YG's techniques were not very advanced:

●楊過到底練成了獨孤劍法沒有？他的武功境界到底如何？（江彥肢）
金庸：有一部分因為獨孤求敗傳下來沒這麼完整，所以他的劍法沒有很強。但他的內力強過令狐沖，因為十六年在 山崖對著瀑布練習，內力甚強。

Thus we're left with two possible conclusions, everything else runs into a contradiction:

1.) The HIS (or at least, YG's version) is not as strong as DG9J.

2.) The DG9J of LHC is much stronger than the DG9J of DGQB.

I personally don't believe that the latter situation is likely (in fact, it is highly UNlikely), considering it was mentioned that LHC, as of the novel, needed 20 years to fully master DG9J, and at the end of the novel, it was never depicted that he learned the last few stances. Nor did he even come close to progressing to the no sword stage.

Thus, I believe the first explanation is more likely. YG simply did not have the means to recreate the DGQB's exact HIS. Or DGQB simply experimented with the HIS. It's even fathomable that the HIS was one of the steps in DGQB's development where he realized that his previous swords (speed and flexibility) paled in comparison to simplicity, and thus he continued to perfect DG9J with the wooden sword.

In the end, I do not believe that the HIS is a 'higher' phase than DG9J. Most likely, DGQB developed the groundwork for DG9J with the HIS, and as the finishe DG9J product did not occur until after that stage.

Of course, you could argue that FQY and LHC never truly mastered DG9J either, because, by its very nature, DG9J cannot ever be fully 'mastered,' because there is nothing there to master.

[PJ]

Damn PJ's linking to old threads.

You read the WHOLE thing, right?

[ChanceEncounter]

You read the WHOLE thing, right?

Yeah, I just felt like sliding a few cents under the door.

[PJ]

Yeah, I just felt like sliding a few cents under the door.

Have you read this topic?

Have fun with that

p.s. it's long, but I consider it to be the MIIT (Most Insightful and Influential Topic) to ever grace the forum of SPCNET.

It was the precursor to a wave of themes and names that became popular later on SPCNET:

-LDA

-SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan and ELOC

-the term "Peak of Perfection"

-TWL (Taking Words Literally)

-Shi Potian as the most powerful protagonist in Jin Yong universe

-the name Zen Master Dengguan/Chengguan (there are two ways to pronounce his name)

-The notion that you can find evidence (that you shouldn't normally notice) if you pay close attention -- examples: Yideng vs Fangzheng in finger writing on wood; Xiang Wentian vs Xiao Feng/Jueyuan in foot writing on floor.