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Thread: Dugu Qiubai: did Jin Yong mess up his story?

  1. #121
    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
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    I'm in the process of reading it. I'm currently on page 10. It seems to be getting easier/less dense from there.

    There are still a few things there I don't necessarily agree with, or find little argument to support, but it's a good thread of conjecture.

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    This forum is already very old, but I just stumble upon it, and can't be helped to give my opinion. A lot people in here say that DG9J is something that is created by DGQB after HIS, so it is somewhat bothered me. In my opinion, it is not.
    I think DG9J is created by DGQB during his teenage year and is perfected during his 20s. So it is before HIS. Because that is the only period where DGQB was using normal sword or flexible sword to fight his enemies. So I believe he developed all that kind of sword techniques during that time. And remember, the last technique of DG9J is fighting enemy with higher internal than himself. Which mean DGQB must encounter enemy with higher internal before, that's why he developed such technique. And I believe the only period DGQB has weaker internal is during his teenage and his 20s. Even if you say how possibly a teenage developed such profound technique, you maybe forget that it is described that DGQB was a genius in martial arts, even admitted by Yang Guo more than himself. So it is possible he developed DG9J when he was younger.

    And all this make sense and connected with HIS. After he perfected DG9J with all its philosophy, you can see how DGQB think about techniques, that no pattern can overcome pattern, his way of thinking is moving towards simplicity.

    So my conclusion is, DGQB started to develop DG9J in his teenage year, perfected it in his 20s, then after reaching no pattern techniques, he switch his weapon to HIS, developed more simply but powerful techniques, and then keep prgressing towards no swords.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruychii View Post
    This forum is already very old, but I just stumble upon it, and can't be helped to give my opinion. A lot people in here say that DG9J is something that is created by DGQB after HIS, so it is somewhat bothered me. In my opinion, it is not.
    I think DG9J is created by DGQB during his teenage year and is perfected during his 20s. So it is before HIS. Because that is the only period where DGQB was using normal sword or flexible sword to fight his enemies. So I believe he developed all that kind of sword techniques during that time. And remember, the last technique of DG9J is fighting enemy with higher internal than himself. Which mean DGQB must encounter enemy with higher internal before, that's why he developed such technique. And I believe the only period DGQB has weaker internal is during his teenage and his 20s. Even if you say how possibly a teenage developed such profound technique, you maybe forget that it is described that DGQB was a genius in martial arts, even admitted by Yang Guo more than himself. So it is possible he developed DG9J when he was younger.

    And all this make sense and connected with HIS. After he perfected DG9J with all its philosophy, you can see how DGQB think about techniques, that no pattern can overcome pattern, his way of thinking is moving towards simplicity.

    So my conclusion is, DGQB started to develop DG9J in his teenage year, perfected it in his 20s, then after reaching no pattern techniques, he switch his weapon to HIS, developed more simply but powerful techniques, and then keep prgressing towards no swords.
    Totally agree with you..

  4. #124
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    My viewpoint is that DG9J, is a summary of what DGKB can teach. Not everyone takes the same path and not everyone will progress or can progress thru the 'stages' of DGKB due to different experiences in life.

    I think some Chinese forums have theories that DG9J is not even written by DGKB but someone later who attempted to codify DGKB's teachings.

    If you take DG9J as some pre-HIS stage. Then won't you run into a classic Spear vs Shield situation?

    DG9J claims it can break anything so can it break the HIS/Wooden Sword/No sword stage then?
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruychii View Post
    This forum is already very old, but I just stumble upon it, and can't be helped to give my opinion. A lot people in here say that DG9J is something that is created by DGQB after HIS, so it is somewhat bothered me. In my opinion, it is not.
    I think DG9J is created by DGQB during his teenage year and is perfected during his 20s. So it is before HIS. Because that is the only period where DGQB was using normal sword or flexible sword to fight his enemies. So I believe he developed all that kind of sword techniques during that time. And remember, the last technique of DG9J is fighting enemy with higher internal than himself. Which mean DGQB must encounter enemy with higher internal before, that's why he developed such technique. And I believe the only period DGQB has weaker internal is during his teenage and his 20s. Even if you say how possibly a teenage developed such profound technique, you maybe forget that it is described that DGQB was a genius in martial arts, even admitted by Yang Guo more than himself. So it is possible he developed DG9J when he was younger.

    And all this make sense and connected with HIS. After he perfected DG9J with all its philosophy, you can see how DGQB think about techniques, that no pattern can overcome pattern, his way of thinking is moving towards simplicity.

    So my conclusion is, DGQB started to develop DG9J in his teenage year, perfected it in his 20s, then after reaching no pattern techniques, he switch his weapon to HIS, developed more simply but powerful techniques, and then keep prgressing towards no swords.
    I agree with this. HIS was just one of the stages in refining his skills & that help boosted his internal.

    YG internal benefited with training in this stage as well.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    I think some Chinese forums have theories that DG9J is not even written by DGKB but someone later who attempted to codify DGKB's teachings.
    That is not written by Jin Young. Theory such as DG9J is invented by other or there are two person named DGQB are just preposterous. That's basically just making their own story that had never been written by Jin Yong. If we to make assumption, it has to be within Jin Yong's writing,

    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    If you take DG9J as some pre-HIS stage. Then won't you run into a classic Spear vs Shield situation?
    Yes and No.
    Yes if we assume DG9J last stance was invented all together at the same time after HIS.
    No, if we assume HIS was invented after only DG9J 8 stances. I believe HIS is probably invented around the same time when DGQJ was trying to create the DG9J last stance. Since HIS not only can defeat enemies with simply but superior move, but also can defeat enemy with higher internal energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    DG9J claims it can break anything so can it break the HIS/Wooden Sword/No sword stage then?
    No. Because someone who only master DG9J even until last stance can't defeat someone who master both DG9J and HIS/Wooden/No Sword.
    You want to clash DG9J last stance with HIS/Wooden Sword/No sword, but you seems to forget two things :
    1. Both techniques are invented by DGQB. Try to imagine this what I write above, can young DGQB who master DG9J until last stance defeat older DGQB who master both ?
    2. DG9J is more about techniques and HIS/Wooden Sword/No sword more about internal. Internal can complement techniques, why would DGQB clash them each other, instead of complementing them.

    And as I written previously, younger DQGB must have encounter enemy with higher internal energy, that's why he had to find a way to defeat that person, and that's why he invented of DG9J 9 stance, or also possibly HIS.
    If you reverse it, that DG9J is after HIS/Wooden Sword/No Sword, then you won't have explanation on how DGQB defeat his opponents during his younger year. Beside, it is so absurd to think that DGQB after reaching No Sword stage was trying to invent something that can defeat his previous effort, instead of inventing other that complement it.

    But if DGQB invent HIS/Wooden Sword/No Sword after DG9J, then it still make sense. Because in his later year, his only opponent was himself. He must have realized that in order to advance further, he need higher internal energy to complement his previous technique DG9J, that simple sword techniques with powerful internal energy can defeat most of the techniques. That's why he slowly making his way to No Sword.
    And he later must have came into final realization, that the final stage of the sword art is no technique and no sword.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruychii View Post
    This forum is already very old, but I just stumble upon it, and can't be helped to give my opinion. A lot people in here say that DG9J is something that is created by DGQB after HIS, so it is somewhat bothered me. In my opinion, it is not.
    I think DG9J is created by DGQB during his teenage year and is perfected during his 20s. So it is before HIS. Because that is the only period where DGQB was using normal sword or flexible sword to fight his enemies. So I believe he developed all that kind of sword techniques during that time. And remember, the last technique of DG9J is fighting enemy with higher internal than himself. Which mean DGQB must encounter enemy with higher internal before, that's why he developed such technique. And I believe the only period DGQB has weaker internal is during his teenage and his 20s. Even if you say how possibly a teenage developed such profound technique, you maybe forget that it is described that DGQB was a genius in martial arts, even admitted by Yang Guo more than himself. So it is possible he developed DG9J when he was younger.

    And all this make sense and connected with HIS. After he perfected DG9J with all its philosophy, you can see how DGQB think about techniques, that no pattern can overcome pattern, his way of thinking is moving towards simplicity.

    So my conclusion is, DGQB started to develop DG9J in his teenage year, perfected it in his 20s, then after reaching no pattern techniques, he switch his weapon to HIS, developed more simply but powerful techniques, and then keep prgressing towards no swords.
    Applause!
    Why didn't I find this thread posted by @ruychii before?
    Similar to my analysis of DG9J vs the HIS.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruychii View Post
    That is not written by Jin Young. Theory such as DG9J is invented by other or there are two person named DGQB are just preposterous. That's basically just making their own story that had never been written by Jin Yong. If we to make assumption, it has to be within Jin Yong's writing,


    Yes and No.
    Yes if we assume DG9J last stance was invented all together at the same time after HIS.
    No, if we assume HIS was invented after only DG9J 8 stances. I believe HIS is probably invented around the same time when DGQJ was trying to create the DG9J last stance. Since HIS not only can defeat enemies with simply but superior move, but also can defeat enemy with higher internal energy.


    No. Because someone who only master DG9J even until last stance can't defeat someone who master both DG9J and HIS/Wooden/No Sword.
    You want to clash DG9J last stance with HIS/Wooden Sword/No sword, but you seems to forget two things :
    1. Both techniques are invented by DGQB. Try to imagine this what I write above, can young DGQB who master DG9J until last stance defeat older DGQB who master both ?
    2. DG9J is more about techniques and HIS/Wooden Sword/No sword more about internal. Internal can complement techniques, why would DGQB clash them each other, instead of complementing them.

    And as I written previously, younger DQGB must have encounter enemy with higher internal energy, that's why he had to find a way to defeat that person, and that's why he invented of DG9J 9 stance, or also possibly HIS.
    If you reverse it, that DG9J is after HIS/Wooden Sword/No Sword, then you won't have explanation on how DGQB defeat his opponents during his younger year. Beside, it is so absurd to think that DGQB after reaching No Sword stage was trying to invent something that can defeat his previous effort, instead of inventing other that complement it.

    But if DGQB invent HIS/Wooden Sword/No Sword after DG9J, then it still make sense. Because in his later year, his only opponent was himself. He must have realized that in order to advance further, he need higher internal energy to complement his previous technique DG9J, that simple sword techniques with powerful internal energy can defeat most of the techniques. That's why he slowly making his way to No Sword.
    And he later must have came into final realization, that the final stage of the sword art is no technique and no sword.
    @ruychii, you have enlightened me

    Furthermore, only DGKB's 1st and 2nd sword stage do not require high internal to master. Stage 3 (HIS), stage 4 and beyond require the practitioner to have high to immense internal to advance.
    Therefore, it could be theorized with high confidence that DG9J is the 1st sword stage.
    Hence, the HIS sword stage is one or two magnitudes higher than the DG9J sword stage.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruychii View Post
    This forum is already very old, but I just stumble upon it, and can't be helped to give my opinion. A lot people in here say that DG9J is something that is created by DGQB after HIS, so it is somewhat bothered me. In my opinion, it is not.
    I think DG9J is created by DGQB during his teenage year and is perfected during his 20s. So it is before HIS. Because that is the only period where DGQB was using normal sword or flexible sword to fight his enemies. So I believe he developed all that kind of sword techniques during that time. And remember, the last technique of DG9J is fighting enemy with higher internal than himself. Which mean DGQB must encounter enemy with higher internal before, that's why he developed such technique. And I believe the only period DGQB has weaker internal is during his teenage and his 20s. Even if you say how possibly a teenage developed such profound technique, you maybe forget that it is described that DGQB was a genius in martial arts, even admitted by Yang Guo more than himself. So it is possible he developed DG9J when he was younger.

    And all this make sense and connected with HIS. After he perfected DG9J with all its philosophy, you can see how DGQB think about techniques, that no pattern can overcome pattern, his way of thinking is moving towards simplicity.

    So my conclusion is, DGQB started to develop DG9J in his teenage year, perfected it in his 20s, then after reaching no pattern techniques, he switch his weapon to HIS, developed more simply but powerful techniques, and then keep prgressing towards no swords.
    your opinion was contradicted to this quote

    "Feng Qingyang explained, “This stance is used to overcome opponents who have great inner energy. The essence of the move really depends on your own interpretation. When senior master Dugu took on the entire Martial World with this set of Dugu Nine Swords many years ago, he couldn’t even find a single person that could defeat him, that was all because he had reached the acme of perfection with the set of sword techniques. "

    if you said that DGQB has perfected his DG9J during his 20s, then DGQB was unparalleled in his 20s, then it contradicted to ROCH's statement that said DGQB was unparalleled during his 30s.

    Jin Yong made a mistake by giving 2 different informations and claim, thus making a plothole. This thread is no-ending debatable
    topic, no wonder Athena or others lazy to reply. None of the replies or theories in this thread really give the best answer for me, none satisfy me, and i dont think there would be one in the future. Moreover, in the interview, Jin Yong indicated that DG9J > HIS .
    if HIS is really that great and perfect, why Dugu never taught to his disciple or his heir? Feng Qingyang should also learned HIS technique instead of 9-Dugu , and taught LHC a HIS swordplay.

    CC joked about DGQB in 2 stories were different people, even though it's a joke, but sometimes i feel it is so far the best answer that can cover the plothole, lolz.

    i have my own theory, it's not a good theory, but everyone can express their own theory right?

    "The fourth sword (represented by a wooden sword)
    "After the age of 40, I was no longer hampered by any weapon. Grass, trees, bamboos and rocks can all be my swords. Since then, I have developed my skills further, such that gradually I can win battles without reaching for weapons."
    i think the sentence said that "no longer hampered by any weapon" and "I can win battles without reaching for weapons" mean that DGQB was too strong that he didnt rely to any weapon, only using bare-handed or anything is enough to defeat his opponent.
    so perhaps he use DG9J martial arts or theory or stance using bare-handed to defeat his opponent, because that's enough, no need for him to use a sword.
    Feng Qingyang and Linghu Chong are not yet reach that level, using swordplay technique without a sword to defeat a first class fighter, this indicated how strong DGQB was in his era or... his opponents are too weak in his era.
    but at least Feng Qingyang's understanding of DG9J is better than LHC, as how he lectured LHC in this quote
    "You idiot! your finger can be used as a sword, too. Do You absolutely have to use a real sword for that move?"

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by a_tumiwa View Post
    your opinion was contradicted to this quote


    "Feng Qingyang explained, “This stance is used to overcome opponents who have great inner energy. The essence of the move really depends on your own interpretation. When senior master Dugu took on the entire Martial World with this set of Dugu Nine Swords many years ago, he couldn’t even find a single person that could defeat him, that was all because he had reached the acme of perfection with the set of sword techniques. "


    if you said that DGQB has perfected his DG9J during his 20s, then DGQB was unparalleled in his 20s, then it contradicted to ROCH's statement that said DGQB was unparalleled during his 30s.


    Jin Yong made a mistake by giving 2 different informations and claim, thus making a plothole. This thread is no-ending debatable
    topic, no wonder Athena or others lazy to reply. None of the replies or theories in this thread really give the best answer for me, none satisfy me, and i dont think there would be one in the future. Moreover, in the interview, Jin Yong indicated that DG9J > HIS .
    if HIS is really that great and perfect, why Dugu never taught to his disciple or his heir? Feng Qingyang should also learned HIS technique instead of 9-Dugu , and taught LHC a HIS swordplay.


    CC joked about DGQB in 2 stories were different people, even though it's a joke, but sometimes i feel it is so far the best answer that can cover the plothole, lolz.


    i have my own theory, it's not a good theory, but everyone can express their own theory right?


    i think the sentence said that "no longer hampered by any weapon" and "I can win battles without reaching for weapons" mean that DGQB was too strong that he didnt rely to any weapon, only using bare-handed or anything is enough to defeat his opponent.
    so perhaps he use DG9J martial arts or theory or stance using bare-handed to defeat his opponent, because that's enough, no need for him to use a sword.
    Feng Qingyang and Linghu Chong are not yet reach that level, using swordplay technique without a sword to defeat a first class fighter, this indicated how strong DGQB was in his era or... his opponents are too weak in his era.
    but at least Feng Qingyang's understanding of DG9J is better than LHC, as how he lectured LHC in this quote

    It is not really contradicting. Because Feng Qing Yang never stated how old is DGQB when he master all DG9J and took on entire martial world. The only things it contradicts probably is the statement in ROCH, where it says DGQB go unopposed in his 30s. So here is my additional opinion, like I mentioned in the other comment, that perhaps only 9th stance of DG9J is created later. And it is probably the same time with when he switched his weapon to HIS. There is even possibility that HIS is one of his result when he tried to create the 9th Stance, of how to defeat opponent with higher internal energy, since both share a similarity, that HIS also can defeat enemy with Higher Internal energy.


    Why HIS is never taught or passed down? Rather than his technique, HIS is his weapon and more towards his story of progress. Even Yang Guo is never really taught HIS, he only try to redo what DGQB did when using HIS by what was told by the condor. But how can DG9J is passed down? Then I can only make another assumption. Perhaps DGQB encounter someone young in his later year, probably after 40 and had reached no sword, and then tutor that young man of his way of sword, DG9J, at whim. This is also similar with how the main character in CH and ROCH, Guo Jing & Yang Guo are taught at whim by every master they encountered, such as Ou Yang Feng, Hong Qi Gong, Chou Bo Tong, or Huang Yao Shi. No one really teach Guo Jing or Yang Guo their progress of internal, all only teach their techniques, except maybe Guo Jing, who is taught basic of breathing by Ma Yu.


    Yes, it is maybe plothole, but it is not that big of plothole, and we can still make assumption that make sense to fill that plothole, not making up entirely other story or theory that deviated from Jin Yong's story.


    And I am sorry, I make my opinion not to satisfy you, but just to make the story make more sense for me. If you don't feel satisfy, then you should come up with your opinion that is more matching to the story, otherwise it just show how lazy and uncreative you really are.
    Last edited by ruychii; 07-27-21 at 09:52 PM. Reason: double quote and wrong stance & wrong sentences

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