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Thread: Dugu Qiubai: did Jin Yong mess up his story?

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    Senior Member Tom's Avatar
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    Default Dugu Qiubai: did Jin Yong mess up his story?

    Feng Qingyang explained, “This stance is used to overcome opponents who have great inner energy. The essence of the move really depends on your own interpretation. When senior master Dugu took on the entire Martial World with this set of Dugu Nine Swords many years ago, he couldn’t even find a single person that could defeat him, that was all because he had reached the acme of perfection with the set of sword techniques. The same sword technique from the same Huashan style sword art could have very different effect and power. It’s the same with the Dugu Nine Swords. Even though you have learned the sword techniques, if you can’t perfect your skills, you would still be no match for first-class elite fighters in today’s world. You have already entered the field. If you prefer to win than lose, go practice hard for another twenty years, then you will be capable of competing with the key players in the world.”
    Note the bolded text. Jin Yong wrote that Dugu Qiubai used DG9J to fight various warriors. As we all know, Mr. Dugu retired AFTER no one could take him on. So that means DGQB has been using DG9J even before retiring. Now look below:

    “Heavy sword with blunt edges, simplicity brings superiority. Before I reached the age of forty, I used it to roam the entire world under Heaven.”
    Jin Yong said that LHC's swordplay is better than that of Yang Guo's but could he have mistaken in that interview? He said "simplicity brings superiority" in ROCH. DG9J is nowhere near simple. It is really complicated and requires A LOT of memorizing.

    So could we conclude that DG9J was used by DGQB BEFORE the Heavy Iron Sword? And hence HIS>DG9J? And hence YG's sword>LHC's sword?

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Actually, DG9J is very simple. Basically, stab wherever you want at random, and it has more efficacy than the most elaborate and intricate of sword arts. What could be more simple than that?!

    And lest you think I jest...

    Another thirty or so moves passed. Linghu Chong noticed that if he had simply thrust out at will, his opponent would be in a frantic rush and have a hard time dealing with it, but if he had used any of the Huashan Sword School moves or moves of the Songshan, Hengshan, or Taishan sword schools drawn on the rock wall in the back cave, Feng Buping would be able to counter well and launch his counterattack immediately after.
    By the time he remembered the key of “Overcoming stances without a stance” told by Feng Qingyang, he took a long breath and thrust his sword out with an odd angle. This thrust wasn’t part of any sword move, not even part of the sword moves from the “Sword-breaking Stance” of the Dugu Nine Swords. It was weak, and tilted. Even he himself didn’t know where he was pointing the sword.
    If he thrusts out 'at will', even if he himself doesn't know where he is pointing his sword, his enemy finds it incredibly difficult to deal with him, more so than if he used any 'actual' technique.
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    Senior Member Tom's Avatar
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    So you're suggesting DG9J is simple. Hmph...interesting.

    So does that mean Dugu Qiubai used Dugu 9 Jian WITH Heavy Iron Sword?

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    DG9J is simple yet difficult, which makes a lot of sense in the paradoxical world of wuxia. There aren't actually moves to remember, which make it the easiest and the hardest form of swordsmanship to master.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogeyman View Post
    So you're suggesting DG9J is simple. Hmph...interesting.

    So does that mean Dugu Qiubai used Dugu 9 Jian WITH Heavy Iron Sword?
    Based on JY's interview, that's a definite no.

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    Senior Member Tom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    Based on JY's interview, that's a definite no.
    So when do YOU think DGQB used DG9J?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogeyman View Post
    So when do YOU think DGQB used DG9J?
    If YG's HIS stage really were the same as DGQB's, then I would guess that DG9J was after that stage.

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    Senior Member Tom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    If YG's HIS stage really were the same as DGQB's, then I would guess that DG9J was after that stage.
    So that means Dugu 9 Jian is when DGQB was 40+ and didn't need a sword...

    Was it ever mentioned WHEN DGQB retired? If it was after he entered the No-sword stage then it all links up.

    30-40 HIS Stage
    40+ No-sword stage + DG9J
    ?? - Retirement


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogeyman View Post
    So that means Dugu 9 Jian is when DGQB was 40+ and didn't need a sword...

    Was it ever mentioned WHEN DGQB retired? If it was after he entered the No-sword stage then it all links up.

    30-40 HIS Stage
    40+ No-sword stage + DG9J
    ?? - Retirement

    The wooden sword stage comes before the no sword stage. Why does it matter when DGQB retired? He wouldn't stop advancing in martial arts just because he retired from Wulin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    The wooden sword stage comes before the no sword stage. Why does it matter when DGQB retired? He wouldn't stop advancing in martial arts just because he retired from Wulin.
    Because it says that DGQB used DG9J to dominate all of Wulin. So that stage has to be BEFORE his retirement.

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    Based on JY's interview, that's a definite no.
    actually, i don't see it being impossible that dugu qiu bai used dugu 9 sword (or at least some form of it) with the HIS...except unfortunately for YG's case, he only inherited the philosophy of the HIS and missed out on the dugu 9 sword.

    who know? perhaps dugu qiu bai had began developing dugu 9 sword since the start of his career. though perhaps he did not "finish" the completed dugu 9 sword until later.

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    Senior Member Han Solo's Avatar
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    Some of us, Lanny Lin and myself believes that all of DGQB's arts including those learnt by YG can be synthesized via DG9J.

    Simplicity can leads to complexity, and in complexity, emerges simplicity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss
    I think they're probably at the same level as or one level below Ah Qing, which is about the level of a 2nd or 3rd generation Quan Zhen disciple.
    Troll Control

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    Senior Member Tom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Han Solo View Post
    Simplicity can leads to complexity, and in complexity, emerges simplicity.
    You sound like a monk, Han Solo.

    To be is not to be, to not be is to be.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Actually, more and more, I'm starting to believe that SPW's Dugu Qiubai is NOT the same person as ROCH's Demonic Swordsman Dugu Qiubai. As far as I know, SPW NEVER referred to its Dugu Qiubai as Demonic Swordsman, whereas ROCH constantly did. Also, the descriptions of ROCH Demonic Swordsman Dugu Qiubai's martial arts are completely different from the description of SPW Dugu Qiubai's martial arts --> I'm not talking about the theories (which share some similarities), but the actual swordplay names (which don't have any similarities).

    In fact, the best way is to isolate SPW from the rest of Jin Yong canon.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    In fact, the best way is to isolate SPW from the rest of Jin Yong canon.
    No way! Jin Yong purposely linked SPW to the rest of the canon by making references here and there in DOMD.

    And the reason why FQY didn't call DGQB SWORD DEMON might be because he was like his "ancestor". Would you call your ancestor a demon?

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    JY himself linked the two in the interview though.
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    I don't think we should leave out SPW when discussing about DGQB because that is the work where we learn the most about this mysterious character. ROCH alone didn't really tell us much about DGQB's swordsmanship despite his being one of the greatest, if not the greatest swordsman ever. DGQB's martial arts was just one of the many influences on YG whereas LHC depended almostly completely on DG9J. Because LHC's story revolved so much around his progress in DG9J, we were able learn a lot more about DGQB's abilities than in any other works. By leaving out SPW and DGQB's demonic sword skills, he would be just another generic powerful character with great internal power and that's not what DGQB is supposed to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    I don't think we should leave out SPW when discussing about DGQB because that is the work where we learn the most about this mysterious character.
    We don't even know if it's the same person. They seem to have less in common than they do have in common.

    I strongly disagree that SPW describes Dugu Qiubai in more detail than ROCH. ROCH gave a MUCH more detailed description of Dugu Qiubai's life-long martial arts progression from his teenage to his final years. About the only thing that SPW adds to Dugu Qiubai's story is this new technique called Dugu 9 Swords, which does not even fit in with ROCH's Dugu Qiubai descriptions.

    ROCH alone didn't really tell us much about DGQB's swordsmanship despite his being one of the greatest, if not the greatest swordsman ever. DGQB's martial arts was just one of the many influences on YG whereas LHC depended almostly completely on DG9J. Because LHC's story revolved so much around his progress in DG9J, we were able learn a lot more about DGQB's abilities than in any other works. By leaving out SPW and DGQB's demonic sword skills, he would be just another generic powerful character with great internal power and that's not what DGQB is supposed to be.
    But again, the question is: is it the same Dugu Qiubai.

    In ROCH (and in every novel except SPW), Dugu Qiubai (and Jin Yong) consistently placed internal energy above technique. Only in SPW did this concept diverge, and that's why you get a different version of Dugu Qiubai that contradicts what was written about Dugu Qiubai in ROCH.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    JY himself linked the two in the interview though.
    Which interview?
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    We don't even know if it's the same person. They seem to have less in common than they do have in common.

    I strongly disagree that SPW describes Dugu Qiubai in more detail than ROCH. ROCH gave a MUCH more detailed description of Dugu Qiubai's life-long martial arts progression from his teenage to his final years. About the only thing that SPW adds to Dugu Qiubai's story is this new technique called Dugu 9 Swords, which does not even fit in with ROCH's Dugu Qiubai descriptions..
    I'm talking more about the martial arts. All we learned in ROCH were a few vague descriptions of DGQB's progress in swordsmanship. In SPW, we actually got to see why his skills with a sword were so fearsome. I think DG9J fits in perfectly with DGQB's ROCH stages since it's a marital arts that progresses as one builds knowledge and experience. Also,since SPW was written later, it's safe to assume that the DGQB portrayed in SPW is closer to JY's vision for that character.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    But again, the question is: is it the same Dugu Qiubai.

    In ROCH (and in every novel except SPW), Dugu Qiubai (and Jin Yong) consistently placed internal energy above technique. Only in SPW did this concept diverge, and that's why you get a different version of Dugu Qiubai that contradicts what was written about Dugu Qiubai in ROCH.

    I think you should look at how JY's theories progressed in terms of the order that his books were written. His early works had relatively simple battles where the more powerful character always won. In DGSD, we started to see XF winning against overwhelming odds by using superior strategy. In SPW, there was a even bigger emphasis on factors other than raw power. It wasn't a matter of JY suddenly contradicting himself, his theories and writing simply became more sophisticated. Personally, I found the battles in his later works to be much more exciting because they weren't just like Dragonball battles where the guy with more power automatically wins.

    It's the same thing with DGQB. JY just made him into a more fleshed out character. We got to see what simplicity is superior to complexity really means. The things we learn about DGQB in SPW actually make a lot of sense. If all DGQB did was continually increased his internal power, then what makes him so different from the other greats that didn't wield swords?

    SPW is essential to understanding why DGQB was able to dominate Wulin with his sword. If anything, it makes more sense to ignore ROCH when talking about DGQB. JY's answer to question about YG's swordsmanship implied that not much of DGQB' advanced sword skills were portrayed in ROCH.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Which interview?
    I think he's talking about that interview when JY was asked if YG had learned DG9J and JY replied that YG's swordsmanship wasn't particularly good.

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