End of ROCH: who had greater prestige - older Greats or younger Greats?

[Ken Cheng]

During the era of LOCH, the Greats were all of the same generation. Only Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung was significantly older than the others, and he was still close enough to them in age to be considered of the same generation.

The same was not true of the time period at the end of ROCH. Two of the Greats (East Heretic Wong Yerk See and South Monk 1 Deng) were holdovers from the previous generation, and Central Mischief Chow Bak Tung, though only newly christened a Great, was of the same generation as well. North Hero Gwok Jing was an entire generation younger, however, and West Passionate Yeung Gor was a generation younger than even Gwok Jing.

In traditional Chinese society, the venerability of age means *everything*. The seniors are given priority over the juniors simply as a virtue of their greater age (and implied greater wisdom and experience). That said, by the end of ROCH, the achievements of the senior Greats were long in the past. What great feat or service had 1 Deng performed in wulin recently at the end of ROCH? His most recent moment of glory was some seventy years earlier at the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament. Wong Yerk See had a much more recent contribution by serving as the de facto leader of the operation to rescue Gwok Seung from the Golden Wheel Monk, but other than that, he'd been MIA in wulin for the preceding thirty years. Chow Bak Tung was much more active during that period, but he was known for his mischief, not his heroism. Any heroic acts that Chow performed during those years were fortunate accidents of his behavior rather than the products of heroic intent.

That leaves Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor. The former defended Seung Yeung steadfastly for the preceding two decades, while the latter greatly disrupted the invasion plans of the Mongols by killing many of their troops and even killing their Khan, Mongke. Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor were foremost in the hearts and minds of the people of Seung Yeung as heroes, as they had most recently performed great heroic feats on behalf of the population.

Given these factors, at the end of ROCH, did people hold the elder Greats (East Heretic, South Monk, and Central Mischief) in higher esteem due to their greater seniority, or were the younger Greats (North Hero, West Passionate) more highly regarded due to their more recent records of heroism?

[pannonian]

Definitely the younger ones. The older Greats were highly regarded in wulin, but the younger Greats were known as heroes over and above their martial abbility. Would Huang Yaoshi, Yideng or Zhou Botong be able to gather such mini-armies as Guo Jing and Yang Guo did for the defence of Xiangyang?

[Dennis Chen]

The older Greats were largely forgotten by the end of ROCH.

[PJ]

Actually, it's said that the old Greats are extremely well-known at the end of ROCH.

[Dennis Chen]

I'm going to have to re-read the passage but it seemed as if the young people who were going to fight on Mt. Hua at the end mentioned that there for formidable fighters who fought each other some 50 years ago but they didn't name names. They knew that the Greats existed but they didn't know who they were.

[Ken Cheng]

The older Greats were largely forgotten by the end of ROCH.

Unlikely, as people in wulin were still talking about them a hundred years later during HSDS.

But the older Greats might have lost some of their old luster as their epic achievements faded increasingly into the distant past, and the younger Greats, with much more recent accomplishments, came to the fore.

[PJ]

I'm going to have to re-read the passage but it seemed as if the young people who were going to fight on Mt. Hua at the end mentioned that there for formidable fighters who fought each other some 50 years ago but they didn't name names. They knew that the Greats existed but they didn't know who they were.

There's no hint that the new guys didn't know the names of the old Greats. It was a very brief scene and they didn't get much speaking opportunity.

Later, it was said that 黄药师、一灯、周伯通、郭靖、黄蓉在武林中都已享名数十年，江湖上可说是谁人不知，那个不晓

The names of Huang Yaoshi, Yideng, Zhou Botong, Guo Jing, and Huang Rong have thrived in the martial world for several tens of years. They have become household names to the martial world.

[flamer]

I will think at the end of ROCH. Guo Jing and Yang Guo will be more esteemed in the hearts of commoners while all the Greats will be in high esteem from Wulin guys.

[tape]

I can imagine wulin people discussing the same things we do. "Whaddaya mean East Heretic is no match for that puny Yang Guo?!" *slams table and starts a fight*

[kyss of the sword]

HYS was a weirdo respected for his skills and intelect. yideng's disiples were all famous hero's who had done many good deeds so yideng would be more respected. HQG always travelled around helping people so he gets direct props from wulin. guo jing scarified for years to keep xiangyang save. even common people who don't know about wulin respected him. yang guo helped people during the time guo jing was fighting the mongols. he had as much respect as guo jing among the commoners. zhuo butong was too childesh, he was respected for his skills, but probably not well known among the people.

[Exodus]

I def. think that the older greats were more well known in wulin not sure even if wulin knew that GJ and YG had become greats at all unless they all go out and do some advertising

[jhudsui]

I think an important thing here is that Zhou Botong taught Guo Jing and Huang Yaoshi taught Yang Guo. The older Greats aren't just a generation above them in an abstract sense, they are actually the younger Greats' teachers. Even everyone thought that GJ and YG were so powerful that they eclipsed their predecessors, I think that would just add to their prestige (at least in wulin) for having trained such great disciples.

[flamer]

I think an important thing here is that Zhou Botong taught Guo Jing and Huang Yaoshi taught Yang Guo. The older Greats aren't just a generation above them in an abstract sense, they are actually the younger Greats' teachers. Even everyone thought that GJ and YG were so powerful that they eclipsed their predecessors, I think that would just add to their prestige (at least in wulin) for having trained such great disciples.

That might be true, but not always so. Xuanku, Wang Jiantong trained Xiao Feng, they were hardly remembered for that. They were remembered for their own greatness.

Yang Guo's arsenal doesnt all come from Huang Yaoshi(Jade Maiden, Toad Stance, Dog Beating Stick) and Guo Jing's also din all come from Zhou Botong (XL18Z anyone?). They each had about 2-3 Greats' help. So its hard to to pin down someone to credit to.

[Ken Cheng]

Yang Guo's arsenal doesnt all come from Huang Yaoshi(Jade Maiden, Toad Stance, Dog Beating Stick) and Guo Jing's also din all come from Zhou Botong (XL18Z anyone?). They each had about 2-3 Greats' help. So its hard to to pin down someone to credit to.

Officially, Yeung Gor's lineage came from West Poison Au Yeung Fung, although he really hardly learned anything from Au Yeung Fung (Au Yeung did get him started, however). Gwok Jing's lineage came clearly from North Beggar Hung 7 Gung, as it was Hung who taught Gwok Jing his primary skill, the Hong Lung 18 Palms.

The relationships with East Heretic and Chow Bak Tung were a bit more peripheral.

[flamer]

Officially, Yeung Gor's lineage came from West Poison Au Yeung Fung, although he really hardly learned anything from Au Yeung Fung (Au Yeung did get him started, however). Gwok Jing's lineage came clearly from North Beggar Hung 7 Gung, as it was Hung who taught Gwok Jing his primary skill, the Hong Lung 18 Palms.

The relationships with East Heretic and Chow Bak Tung were a bit more peripheral.

Yup and whats more, i think the general Wulin would not really know the origins of YG/GJ's MAs. Except the obvious XL18Z etc. So its again hard to credit those.