The eVILSLAYER -vs- The tOMBRAIDER

[PJ]

The sky was cloudy.

Why was the sky cloudy?

Because there was cloud in the sky.

OK, let me cut to the chase.

This topic is about pitting two MOFO speedsters against each other, who happen to share the same family name (maybe they're related).

On the first corner, we have:

The original castratee of the Ming dynasty, the pioneer of the unfathomably chic fad, the monk who resigned his position in order to fulfill a more surprising position, The Pioneer of Castration, The Castration of Pioneer, CASTRATION PIONEER EVIL SLAYER Lin Yuantu

On the other corner, have we:

Founder of the Ice Coffin, Misandrist with Pride, She Who Cursed at Her Partner-in-Travel for 7 days 7 Nights Nonstop, Master of Dragon Girl's Dazzling Speed, Who Has reached the Peak of Perfection in Finger Rock Writing by Cheating, TOMB RAIDER Lin Chaoying

Both are not known for their godly speed, but we know/think that they had such godly speed. If they were to fight each other, who would take the cake?

[Tom]

Did Lin Yuantu had full access to the complete version of KHBD? If he did, he could possibly win.

My opinion might be a bit biased though because I never really thought much of Ancient Tomb's martial arts.

[Wu Wudi]

I give the edge to Lin Yuantu. Lin Chaoying's techniques were largely effective because they were "weird" and unorthodox. It'd be shocking for LCY to finally see a MA that's even more weird than hers.

[Ken Cheng]

I give the edge to Lin Yuantu. Lin Chaoying's techniques were largely effective because they were "weird" and unorthodox. It'd be shocking for LCY to finally see a MA that's even more weird than hers.

Personally, I think Lam Chiu Ying might have lucked out that she never ran into East Heretic Wong Yerk See during her lifetime. I suspect that Peach Blossom Island martial arts might be a good match for her Ancient Tomb Sect martial arts.

[Extremer88]

My opinion might be a bit biased though because I never really thought much of Ancient Tomb's martial arts.

Same here, maybe against Quanzhen these martial arts are useful, but I don't think they will look awesome or powerful outside of their Quanzhen-Ancient Tomb world.

[yittz]

She was described as an equal to WCY (we know she's a bit below), but clearly ahead of preLOCH greats. Compare to ROCH greats - hard to say depends on how we view WCY vs ROCH greats. IMO she's considerably below the likes of GJ.

Next question is how does Lin Yuan Tou compare to ROCH greats. This becomes a debate between Trilogy vs SPW. IMO LYT should be better than DFBB, he had longer access to a better version with more understanding (and maybe more martial arts intelligence). DFBB's ranking within Trilogy fluctuates between clearly a ROCH great to somewhere below XLN.

In summary: no fricken idea, anywhere between LYT pwning LCY, to LCY being slightly better than LYT.

[shenlong]

LYT was not known for his godly speed? Wasn't "his family's" sword art renowned for its speed?

[Wu Wudi]

DFBB's ranking within Trilogy fluctuates between clearly a ROCH great to somewhere below XLN.

I've seen many arguments which claim that DFBB is stronger than a ROCH great.

LYT was not known for his godly speed? Wasn't "his family's" sword art renowned for its speed?

Yeah, it seemed that all variations of KHBD have strong emphasis on speed.

[ChronoReverse]

It was said that he didn't seem that fast because he used exactly enough speed to win meaning he was far faster but was hiding the essence of his sword art. This was why so many people had the motions of PXJF down but had no idea why it was so crappy. In fact, this is a form of formlessness because the moves didn't actually matter but rather the execution and the result.

Since he was using crappy technique on purpose and still managed to never lose and left a legacy that was remembered two generations down, I'd put his speed at "Pretty Damn Fast". LCY on the other hand, despite her speed and weird "Black Star to QZ" techniques, could not actually beat WCY in a fight.

[PJ]

LCY on the other hand, despite her speed and weird "Black Star to QZ" techniques, could not actually beat WCY in a fight.

After Lin Chaoying invented Ancient Tomb martial arts, she never fought Wang Chongyang. So no proof that she couldn't beat him.

[Ken Cheng]

After Lin Chaoying invented Ancient Tomb martial arts, she never fought Wang Chongyang. So no proof that she couldn't beat him.

Didn't Jin Yong himself write that she wouldn't win?

[PJ]

Didn't Jin Yong himself write that she wouldn't win?

I'm not comparing Lin at the end of her life with Wang at the end of his life. Because Wang outlived Lin by 10 or so years. If we compare apples to apples--Lin and Wang at the time right after Lin invented Ancient Tomb arts, Lin might be better.

[Ken Cheng]

2) After Lin Chaoying passed away, Wang Chongyang further improved with 9 Yin. By then, he could be better than her.

I thought that while Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung read and comprehended the 9 Yum Jen Ging, he never really practiced it and thus, it was never really incorporated into his personal martial arts.

Moreover, I know it's been written somewhere that while Ancient Tomb Sect martial arts were specifically designed to counter Cheun Jen Sect martial arts and would be thus effective if Ancient Tomb acolytes fought Cheun Jen Sect acolytes (of comparable levels, of course), Lam Chiu Ying would not defeat Wong Chung Yeung in personal combat.

[PJ]

It was said that if Lin Chaoying had lived to the day of 1st Huashan Tournament, chances are good that she would have won the tournament.

I thought that while Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung read and comprehended the 9 Yum Jen Ging,he never really practiced it and thus, it was never really incorporated into his personal martial arts.

Well he learned enough of it to find counters to Ancient Tomb martial arts.

Moreover, I know it's been written somewhere that while ... Lam Chiu Ying would not defeat Wong Chung Yeung in personal combat.

That might be true (or might not be true), but the point is that we're comparing Wang who outlived her by a number of years and had additional opportunities to learn superb martial arts. But before he had those opportunities, Lin was better.

When I read ChronoReserve's statement, it sounded like "AT martial arts would have lost to Wang at all times." But that's not true. She could beat him for a while. Only after he learned 9 Yin did he gain some grounds.

[ChronoReverse]

I said that and I still stand by it. It's the simpler explanation whereas it takes more hand-waving to argue that LCY was better than WCY at one point.

WCY definitely maintained a higher internal energy (and probably significantly higher for that) than LCY. Added to that LCY's AT techniques (not the final Jade Maiden which she couldn't use by herself anyways) were the "Black Star" of QZ but hardly flawless. WCY isn't so stiff that in a straight up fight he couldn't change things up. This was the guy who invented the Big Dipper formation for his disciples because they weren't good enough to take on the Greats.


Finally, it was Jade Maiden, the entire thing, that WCY couldn't figure out how to defeat. But to completely use Jade Maiden, it was impossible for one person to use without L/R Technique. LCY couldn't have used it.

[PJ]

WCY definitely maintained a higher internal energy (and probably significantly higher for that) than LCY.

I doubt it was that significant.
He was only slightly better than her prior to AT.
He couldn't have improved that much afterwards.

Added to that LCY's AT techniques (not the final Jade Maiden which she couldn't use by herself anyways) were the "Black Star" of QZ but hardly flawless.

Same thing can be said about Lin Yuantu's martial arts.

WCY isn't so stiff that in a straight up fight he couldn't change things up. This was the guy who invented the Big Dipper formation for his disciples because they weren't good enough to take on the Greats.

Yeah but how long did it take him to invent the Big Dipper Formation? Changing things up as you call it takes time. It took Ouyang Feng a day to counter one move to Dog Beating Stick, and it took Jiumozhi a "cup of tea's time" to devise a strategy to beat the 6M monks. They couldn't do it on-the-fly.

[ChronoReverse]

I doubt it was that significant.
He was only slightly better than her prior to AT.
He couldn't have improved that much afterwards.

Why wouldn't he? His standard orthodox QZ internal energy was already one of the best available. Plus he trained Pre-Heaven. Going from LMC, XLN and the old lady, AT internal energy isn't that impressive even with the Ice Bed. WCY was known for his strong internal energy; QZ martial arts' basis was internal energy.

Same thing can be said about Lin Yuantu's martial arts.

Except technique really doesn't matter with LYT's martial arts. He has strong internal energy backed up by tremendous speed. Furthermore, he has some grasp (perhaps not too good though) of formlessness in how he used weak looking techniques in a manner that ended up skewering his opponents. In other words, sword intent.





In any case, since the Jade Maiden techniques were specific counters even relatively small variations (for a master not the normal fighter) would be enough to greatly reduce the danger. At the very worse, WCY would fight defensively until he had a good grasp of the techniques.

No fighter in the Great level could be defeated that easily. OYF would've been put on his heels against H7G with DBS, but their internal energies are similar as well as their intelligence as well as their other techniques. In this case, the edge provided by DBS would slowly prove decisive.

If we are to believe WCY is even "only" at LOCH level, he'd have enough in him to hold out and eventually win even in the first sortie because of his intelligence and superior internal energy. You don't need to "counter" Jade Maiden to beat it (in all but the final stages). The Mongol flunkies in ROCH clearly prove that.





[extra]
This is an elaboration on the assertion that minor variations break true counters.

First we have the sayings of FCY:

If we judge them by their understanding of advanced Kung Fu theories, these Demon Cult Elders shouldn’t be counted as ones who have entered the realm of top level Kung Fu. They didn’t know that moves are static, but the one executing the moves is alive. No matter how clever the counter-move is for breaking static moves, as soon as they encounter moves performed in a lively way, they would feel like their arms and legs are all tied up and would have no other choice but to give themselves up to the opponent’s mercy.

Second, the reason why the counters work is because of foreknowledge of what your opponent is going to do. But this is an assumption that you actually do know. If your opponent is following the technique then sure you do know, but surely a Great-level fighter like WCY isn't constrained by that?
[/extra]

[Wu Wudi]

That might be true (or might not be true), but the point is that we're comparing Wang who outlived her by a number of years and had additional opportunities to learn superb martial arts. But before he had those opportunities, Lin was better.

At the time when WCY would rather give up his tomb than get married, WCY was still superior to LCY. Since WCY had inscribed much of his MA on the tomb's wall, LCY was able to learn from them and create techniques to counter WCY. So it would seem that LCY actually benefited from more "opportunities" than WCY before her untimely death.