Cheung 3 Fung using Tai Chi Sword Technique vs. the Dook Goo 9 Swords users?

[Ken Cheng]

How would Cheung 3 Fung, using Tai Chi Sword Technique, fare against each of the Dook Goo 9 Swords users (Ling Wu Chung, Fung Ching Yeung, Dook Goo Kau Bai) one-on-one?

[Dennis Chen]

Does this include using internal?

[Ken Cheng]

Does this include using internal?

Both sides can draw on whatever inner power they possess, although Ling Wu Chung can't "cheat" and use Kup Sing Dai Fat to steal or dissipate anybody else's inner power.

[flamer]

Z3F can prob defeat all of them except maybe Dugu.

[Trien Chieu]

It would be interestesting!
However, I think Dook Goo Kau Bai would defeat Cheung 3 Fung. Dook Goo Kau Bai is too powerful for anyone to handle when he is at his best...

However, if you talk about at the time Dook Goo Kau Bai still haven't maximize his inner power and technique while Cheung 3 Fung at his best, then Cheung 3 Fung would have a chance.

[Dennis Chen]

We don't know enough about either Dugu Qiubai or ZSF to know who is more powerful. It seems all 3 books of the trilogy has an individual who has martial arts better than anyone else in the books; someone who doesn't actually appear. In LOCH, it was Wang Chongyang. In ROCH, it was Dugu Qiubai. In HSDS, it was GJ. Based upon the line that ZSF said about GJ, his kung fu was also mythically awesome.

IMHO, the only reason we don't rank GJ with DGQB is because we've not only seen GJ in fights, we've seen him as a newbie learning his kung fu. We know his strengths and his weaknesses. We don't see that for DGQB.

[Ken Cheng]

We don't know enough about either Dugu Qiubai or ZSF to know who is more powerful. It seems all 3 books of the trilogy has an individual who has martial arts better than anyone else in the books; someone who doesn't actually appear. In LOCH, it was Wang Chongyang. In ROCH, it was Dugu Qiubai. In HSDS, it was GJ. Based upon the line that ZSF said about GJ, his kung fu was also mythically awesome.

IMHO, the only reason we don't rank GJ with DGQB is because we've not only seen GJ in fights, we've seen him as a newbie learning his kung fu. We know his strengths and his weaknesses. We don't see that for DGQB.

We also saw Gwok Jing get his butt royally kicked from time to time, definitely during his youth and even after he became a Great, which leads to another critique of one of the major logical flaws in the whole "invincible" Dook Goo Kau Bai concept.

Nobody, not even the Janitor Monk, was *born* a martial arts master. Nor could anybody go from zero to invincible in a day (not even Hui Juk, after gaining the Siu Yiu Sect Elders' great power, could make this claim because despite that power, his lack of skill and experience meant he'd still lose some fights). I can accept that by the time that Dook Goo Kau Bai reached maturity, he stopped losing and nobody could defeat him. But surely, he must have had a young, formative period when he was still learning his craft, and during this period, there must have been stronger warriors who defeated him. Logic dictates that that *must* have happened. Just as surely as Michael Jordan was not a world-dominating basketball player the first day he touched a basketball, and just as surely as William Shakespeare did not begin to write beautiful and poetic verse on the first day he learned how to pick up a pen and write, surely Dook Goo Kau Bai did not begin beating opponents from when he first picked up a sword.

That's one logical chasm that I can't bridge.

[IcyFox]

There's a probability that Master Dugu didn't start fighting until he became a pro.

[PJ]

We don't know enough about either Dugu Qiubai or ZSF to know who is more powerful. It seems all 3 books of the trilogy has an individual who has martial arts better than anyone else in the books; someone who doesn't actually appear. In LOCH, it was Wang Chongyang. In ROCH, it was Dugu Qiubai. In HSDS, it was GJ. Based upon the line that ZSF said about GJ, his kung fu was also mythically awesome.

IMHO, the only reason we don't rank GJ with DGQB is because we've not only seen GJ in fights, we've seen him as a newbie learning his kung fu. We know his strengths and his weaknesses. We don't see that for DGQB.

Some good points here. But I'd say the reason we don't rank Guo Jing as high as Dugu Qiubai, is simply that Jin Yong downplayed Guo Jing's greatness at the end of ROCH. After 16 years, Guo Jing should be significantly better than the old Greats, but it's never mentioned or even suggested. IMO, according to the logic and pattern of Guo Jing's historic steady improvement, Guo Jing should be one level above the old Greats at the end of ROCH.

But nice guy Jin Yong wanted to keep all the Greats (including Wang Chongyang) at a similar level. By doing so he created many inconsistencies.

[PJ]

But surely, he must have had a young, formative period when he was still learning his craft, and during this period, there must have been stronger warriors who defeated him. Logic dictates that that *must* have happened.

That's one logical chasm that I can't bridge.

Not so in Jin Yong universe. Several people have been annotated by Jin Yong as never having lost a fight in their lives, until a certain moment. See List of fighters who were known to be UNDEAFEATED.

How to account for this? Let's take Xiao Feng for example. From birth, he was secretly protected by several high-level individuals. They made sure he didn't get into a dreadfully disadvantageous situation. Knowing that, it's not difficult to conceive that he never lost a fight.

Even somebody like Granny Golden Flower, who never lost a fight until she met Miejue, all that's needed to preserve her claim of not having lost, is to not get into a situation where you have a high chance of losing - i.e. pick your fights wisely.

For Dugu Qiubai, it could be like IceFox said: he didn't participate in any major fights until he became pretty formidable. During his younger days (< 15), he could have sparred with his master (if he had one) and lost, but I don't think that counts as losing a fight.

[IcyFox]

During his younger days (< 15), he could have sparred with his master (if he had one) and lost, but I don't think that counts as losing a fight.

Maybe he could have been like Zhang San Feng in his earlier days - staring at some waterfall or rock or cloud or cesspool for 7 days and 7 nights and suddenly getting enlightened.

Or his master might have been that Big Bird who can't talk anyway.

[AnhHung]

Taji is more sophisticated with its simplicity(!?). DG9J is simple, yet rich in variety.

The Taji art is better than DG9J. I remember reading an article in Vietnamese once where the author discussed the two sword art. I will try to find it and translate.

In my book, Taji is better. Z3F is better. DGKB is overrated.