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Thread: Titles & forms of address in wuxia drama

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    For a male name, we can just look at Bruce Lee. His given name was "小龙", "xiao3 long2", "Little Dragon." This is an extremely masculine name, because dragons are 'yang' symbols of power, masculinity, and virility. Very, very few parents would think of including the character 'dragon' in a girls name! They might be much more inclined to use the character "凤", "feng4", meaning "phoenix", instead, as that is a very female symbol, and is the female counterpart to the dragon.

    Hope this clarifies things up for you a bit!
    Now, I'll mess things up a bit.

    龙 long2 (dragon) can become a girl's name with the addition of the 'jade' radical, i.e. 珑 long2 (same pronunciation). 珑 long2 comes from 玲珑 ling2-long2, which has two meanings: (1) ingeniously and delicately wrought objects, or (2) clever and agile people (usually girls).

    A friend once sent me this interesting article about 凤凰 feng4-huang2. In a nutshell, 凤凰 feng4-huang2 (both words used together) refers to a mythical bird that is usually translated as "phoenix". But as individual words, 凤 feng4 refers to the male of the species, while 凰 huang2 refers to the female. That solved the mystery of the naming of Lu Xiaofeng 陆小凤 (well-know male protagonist in a series of novels by the same name that were written by Gu Long) for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuangYushi View Post
    A friend once sent me this interesting article about 凤凰 feng4-huang2. In a nutshell, 凤凰 feng4-huang2 (both words used together) refers to a mythical bird that is usually translated as "phoenix". But as individual words, 凤 feng4 refers to the male of the species, while 凰 huang2 refers to the female. That solved the mystery of the naming of Lu Xiaofeng 陆小凤 (well-know male protagonist in a series of novels by the same name that were written by Gu Long) for me.
    True, but it also depends on context. For example, the 'dragon, phoenix' pairing invariably refers to a male/female pairing (often referring to the emperor and the empress), and in that case, the word/phrase '龙凤', 'long2 feng4', has the character '凤', 'feng4', refer to a female.

    Also, Chinese people often do use single parts of multipart words/phrases as abbreviations, so if they were using '凤', 'feng4', in that sense, as an abbreviation, then it would also be the female.

    But in general, yes, your explanation is correct.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 06-05-08 at 01:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sniffles View Post
    Well it does tell me why there seems to be such a huge variety of names in Chinese.

    It also tells me a lot about cultural associations. My parents chose my name because they liked the sound of it and it was traditionally a feminine name; I don't think they were even aware of the underlying meaning. And the individual sounds or letters of my name don't have any relationship to whether it's considered masculine or feminine. It just started out as a feminine name in ancient times and has continued as that to the present.

    So it's a very different way of thinking about names.
    To make it even more fun, for two-part names (such as Xiaolong, or Ruobing), sometimes the first part of the name is a 'generational name'; this occurs most often in large, traditional families, or organizations where hierarchy is very important (such as monasteries).

    So, for example, I'll again point at my own family. My father is named 'Xiaonian', (Little Year); his sister is named 'Xiao3 yun2' (Little Cloud), and his brother is named 'Xiao3 jing1' (Little Clever). So in this case, the word 'Xiao3', 'Little', would be part of the generational name, whereas 'Nian', 'Yun', and 'Jing', respectively, would be their personal names.

    Father's full name: Lai Xiaonian.
    Lai=>Surname
    Xiao=>Generational name
    Nian=>Personal name.

    Similarly, my grandfather on my mother's side had a huge number of brothers, sisters, and cousins; they all belonged to the 'Ke4' generation, and were of the 'Li' family. My grandfather is named Li Keyou; he has relatives named Li Keyong, Li Keming, Li Kedong, etc. etc. etc. This is done so that when people in a family meet, they immediately know what generation each of them belong to, and thus know where they are on the 'hierarchy', so to speak. However, this has grown less and less common with modernity, both because of the shedding of some old traditions, and also because the One Child Policy has made it effectively meaningless, for the most part, due to the much smaller family sizes. My own family has discarded it, and chose my own name without worrying about the generational name issue.

    Generational names will come up especially often in Wuxia series that deals with Shaolin. This is because when monks enter the monastery, they discard their old names, and are assigned a monk name; the monk name itself composes of just the generational name and the personal name (as monks have no family, there is no family name). This works the same way as non-monastic generational names, so people of the 'Xuan' generation, for example, could be called 'Xuanci', 'Xuanku', 'Xuannan', 'Xuanbei', 'Xuandu', etc. etc. etc.

    Traditionally speaking, the generational names are usually already pre-set via a generational poem; each character of the poem would be a generational name, and when the end of the poem is reached, it would either be extended or just start from the beginning again. Shaolin has a poem as well, written in the Yuan dynasty by the Abbot of that time, Fu Yu.

    http://www.shaolinwolf.com/subsites/poem.htm
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 06-05-08 at 04:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    To make it even more fun, for two-part names (such as Xiaolong, or Ruobing), sometimes the first part of the name is a 'generational name'; this occurs most often in large, traditional families, or organizations where hierarchy is very important (such as monasteries).

    So, for example, I'll again point at my own family. My father is named 'Xiaonian', (Little Year); his sister is named 'Xiao3 yun2' (Little Cloud), and his brother is named 'Xiao3 jing1' (Little Clever). So in this case, the word 'Xiao3', 'Little', would be part of the generational name, whereas 'Nian', 'Yun', and 'Jing', respectively, would be their personal names.

    Father's full name: Lai Xiaonian.
    Lai=>Surname
    Xiao=>Generational name
    Nian=>Personal name.

    Similarly, my grandfather on my mother's side had a huge number of brothers, sisters, and cousins; they all belonged to the 'Ke4' generation, and were of the 'Li' family. My grandfather is named Li Keyou; he has relatives named Li Keyong, Li Keming, Li Kedong, etc. etc. etc. This is done so that when people in a family meet, they immediately know what generation each of them belong to, and thus know where they are on the 'hierarchy', so to speak. However, this has grown less and less common with modernity, both because of the shedding of some old traditions, and also because the One Child Policy has made it effectively meaningless, for the most part, due to the much smaller family sizes. My own family has discarded it, and chose my own name without worrying about the generational name issue.

    Generational names will come up especially often in Wuxia series that deals with Shaolin. This is because when monks enter the monastery, they discard their old names, and are assigned a monk name; the monk name itself composes of just the generational name and the personal name (as monks have no family, there is no family name). This works the same way as non-monastic generational names, so people of the 'Xuan' generation, for example, could be called 'Xuanci', 'Xuanku', 'Xuannan', 'Xuanbei', 'Xuandu', etc. etc. etc.

    Traditionally speaking, the generational names are usually already pre-set via a generational poem; each character of the poem would be a generational name, and when the end of the poem is reached, it would either be extended or just start from the beginning again. Shaolin has a poem as well, written in the Yuan dynasty by the Abbot of that time, Fu Yu.

    http://www.shaolinwolf.com/subsites/poem.htm
    Wow. That's some fascinating stuff, thanks! I had wondered about the two-part names. The emphasis on identifying which generation a person belongs to also helps me understand more about the generational issues with wuxia characters and how they know whether to consider another person as senior or junior or of equal level to themselves.

    As I said, it's a different way of thinking about naming. At least for my generation of American-born Caucasians of European descent, a person's "middle" name, or secondary personal name if you will, isn't really used for any purpose other than to identify that individual as separate from any other individual who might have the same given name and surname. My middle name was given in honor of my maternal grandmother, but many people have middle names that don't have any family history.

    The generational poem info is really interesting. I had no idea.
    你看这些云彩,聚了又散,散了又聚,人生离合也是一样。

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    Quote Originally Posted by sniffles View Post
    Wow. That's some fascinating stuff, thanks! I had wondered about the two-part names. The emphasis on identifying which generation a person belongs to also helps me understand more about the generational issues with wuxia characters and how they know whether to consider another person as senior or junior or of equal level to themselves.

    As I said, it's a different way of thinking about naming. At least for my generation of American-born Caucasians of European descent, a person's "middle" name, or secondary personal name if you will, isn't really used for any purpose other than to identify that individual as separate from any other individual who might have the same given name and surname. My middle name was given in honor of my maternal grandmother, but many people have middle names that don't have any family history.

    The generational poem info is really interesting. I had no idea.
    Yup, it can be a lot of fun, and in relationship between juniors and seniors, very important.

    To take a fun example out of Xiao Ao Jiang Hu, at one point in time, Fangzheng, the abbot of Shaolin, was willing to take on Linghu Chong as his disciple, in which case Linghu Chong would have become Guochong (at Fangzheng's suggestion) since the next generation down from the 'Fang' generation was the 'Guo' generation. Due to Shaolin's extremely high seniority in the martial world, the 'Fang' generation monk was actually one generation above that of the headmasters of the Five Sword sects, so if Linghu Chong had really joined Shaolin, and had become Linghu Guochong, he would have suddenly jumped up in seniority equal to his former master, Yue Buqun!
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 06-05-08 at 07:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Yup, it can be a lot of fun, and in relationship between juniors and seniors, very important.

    To take a fun example out of Xiao Ao Jiang Hu, at one point in time, Fangzheng, the abbot of Shaolin, was willing to take on Linghu Chong as his disciple, in which case Linghu Chong would have become Guochong (at Fangzheng's suggestion) since the next generation down from the 'Fang' generation was the 'Guo' generation. Due to Shaolin's extremely high seniority in the martial world, the 'Fang' generation monk was actually one generation above that of the headmasters of the Five Sword sects, so if Linghu Chong had really joined Shaolin, and had become Linghu Guochong, he would have suddenly jumped up in seniority equal to his former master, Yue Buqun!
    Another JY novel translation I need to read - I can't remember if wuxiapedia has a completed one,though.
    你看这些云彩,聚了又散,散了又聚,人生离合也是一样。

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    It's completed on this forum by Pokit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    It's completed on this forum by Pokit.
    Thanks!

    Lots of copying and pasting do to, I guess - I copy them to .rtf files and then convert them to .pdb files so I can read them on my Palm Pilot.
    你看这些云彩,聚了又散,散了又聚,人生离合也是一样。

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    Quote Originally Posted by sniffles View Post
    New question:
    I have noticed that I've never seen a man named Ziyi, for instance, but that may just be my limited experience of Chinese names.
    I have a lecturemate called Ziyi, and I thought it was a she until I saw his photo. What a surprise. Not sure of exact characters though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    In a given school, generally speaking, even if the wife's martial arts are superior to the husband's (a very rare occasion), the husband would still be the shifu, and the wife still the shiniang, because of traditional Chinese patriarchy. The situation where the woman would be addressed as shifu would only come up in cases where 1) She's a bachelorette/spinster, or 2) She knows martial arts and her husband is not a person of the Wulin. In the former, the question of what to call her husband is irrelevant. The latter case comes up extremely rarely (especially for women who have a high enough ability in martial arts to take on students), and in the few cases I can think of where that might have happened, in none of them did the woman take on disciples; based upon general Chinese tradition, I believe that if they "marry out of" Wulin by marrying a non-Wulin husband, that they set aside Wulin customs and traditions and take on that of the general populace.

    So to answer your question, in the context of Wuxia, I can think of no situation where that might come up, due to the traditions of that time. Yushi, can you think of anything?
    IIRC the disciples of Mr and Mrs Gui Xinshu in BXJ referred to both of them as shifu. Anyone can confirm?

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    Sorry, I'm really not all that familiar with BXJ.
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    Watching more drama, I've noticed there's a tendency for characters to sometimes refer to themselves in third person. Instead of "I will do such-and-such" it's "(Insert name here) will do such-and-such."

    Is that something that only occurs in these dramas, or is it a normal pattern of speech? And what's the reason for this? Is it considered improper to talk about oneself too much using "I"?
    你看这些云彩,聚了又散,散了又聚,人生离合也是一样。

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    There's a number of ways that people can refer to themselves, usually with varying degrees of respect and seriousness; referring to themselves in the third person with their full names is usually in very serious cases. In modern days, most of those conventions are pretty much non-existent; the only time where a person might actually use his name instead of 'I' is if they are being extremely, extremely serious and formal.

    The only situation off the top of my head where I've ever heard a person refer to themselves in third person these days is when they're making a promise or an oath (it can be tongue-in-cheek as well, in that regard).
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 06-08-08 at 02:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    There's a number of ways that people can refer to themselves, usually with varying degrees of respect and seriousness; referring to themselves in the third person with their full names is usually in very serious cases. In modern days, most of those conventions are pretty much non-existent; the only time where a person might actually use his name instead of 'I' is if they are being extremely, extremely serious and formal.

    The only situation off the top of my head where I've ever heard a person refer to themselves in third person these days is when they're making a promise or an oath (it can be tongue-in-cheek as well, in that regard).
    From the context I suspected as much. But since I'm only watching dramas with semi-historical settings, I wasn't sure if people were using modern colloquial speech, or doing what I sometimes see in American-made historical drama, where everyone speaks more formally (or in medieval or fantasy drama where everyone speaks formally and has a British accent! ).
    你看这些云彩,聚了又散,散了又聚,人生离合也是一样。

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    Quote Originally Posted by sniffles View Post
    From the context I suspected as much. But since I'm only watching dramas with semi-historical settings, I wasn't sure if people were using modern colloquial speech, or doing what I sometimes see in American-made historical drama, where everyone speaks more formally (or in medieval or fantasy drama where everyone speaks formally and has a British accent! ).
    But you'll never see an American movie or TV series where the 'Founding Fathers' speak with English accents even though most were born in England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesG View Post
    But you'll never see an American movie or TV series where the 'Founding Fathers' speak with English accents even though most were born in England.
    Very true. American film and television producers are also notorious for never hiring anyone of the correct nationality to play a part. If they need someone to play a Chinese character, for example, they just find an Asian actor, even though plenty of Chinese-American actors may be available. Sigh.
    你看这些云彩,聚了又散,散了又聚,人生离合也是一样。

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    Okay, new question. I just finished watching Fox Volant of the Snow Mountain, and now I'm starting in on Sword Stained With Royal Blood (the most recent version). I notice that Hu Fei calls Ping Si by a certain title that's translated as "uncle" in the subtitles. Yuan Chuanzhi calls his father's retainers by the same term. I'm not sure what this word is, but to my unschooled ear it sounds a bit similar to the word for bathroom.

    I can't find a term for "uncle" in my dictionary that corresponds with this word.
    你看这些云彩,聚了又散,散了又聚,人生离合也是一样。

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    The name should be Yuan Chengzhi, not Yuan Chuanzhi, just as an FYI. And I'm not sure what 'uncle' sounds like 'bathroom'...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    The name should be Yuan Chengzhi, not Yuan Chuanzhi, just as an FYI. And I'm not sure what 'uncle' sounds like 'bathroom'...
    Oops! I've only watched the first episode of SSWRB, so I got his name wrong.

    The trouble is that I don't know if it really is a word for uncle or if that's just the way the subtitlers chose to translate it. It sounds like the actors are saying "ze4suo", or maybe "ce4shuo" or "ce shi wo" (not sure about the tones), which sounds a bit similar to ce4suo3 to me.

    Now I'll probably find out that it's nothing at all like that and feel really foolish.
    你看这些云彩,聚了又散,散了又聚,人生离合也是一样。

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    Words for "uncle" include:

    1. 伯父 bo2 fu4 [informal: 伯伯 bo2 bo] - Older brother of one's father or equivalent.
    2. 叔父 shu1 fu4 [informal: 叔叔 shu1 shu] - Younger brother of one's father or equivalent.
    3. 舅父 jiu4 fu4 [informal: 舅舅 jiu4 jiu] - Older/younger brother of one's mother. This is usually not used as a form of respectful address for male non-relatives who are one generation older than the speaker.

    Quote Originally Posted by sniffles View Post
    The trouble is that I don't know if it really is a word for uncle or if that's just the way the subtitlers chose to translate it. It sounds like the actors are saying "ze4suo", or maybe "ce4shuo" or "ce shi wo" (not sure about the tones), which sounds a bit similar to ce4suo3 to me.
    IIRC, there's one retainer called 孙仲寿 Sun Zhongshou (Sun1 Zhong1 Shou4) whom Yuan Chengzhi addresses as Sun-shushu 孙叔叔 (Uncle Sun). Could it be him?

    On the other hand, it might not even be a person at all. Since English syntax differs from Chinese, the words you heard could have been those relating to other parts of speech. E.g.:
    这是我 zhe4 shi4 wo3 - This is my ....
    这所 zhe4 suo3 - This could be ....

    It's probably not "bathroom", because "bathroom" tends to go by another term during those times, e.g. 茅厕 mao2 ce4 .... unless there was visual indication, or better still, confirmation!
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