Card Games?

[jiang bao]

i play ar FT now, and have been many times screwed by incredible bad beats. I posted a couple of days ago about how I let the bad beats mess me up even though I knew I was on tilt. Lost nearly all of my profits in one sitting. Really didn't play that badly. Made 2 bad calls all session, but got sucked out on in all in pots at least 5 times. But then someone deleted the thread.

FT's script is heavily flawed. Random number generators aren't really random. I just want to get my signup bonus cleared and leave.

[ChuckC]

Try playing with Pokercrusher or pokeredge installed. That will increase your call success rate. Some players you obviously need to call out so maybe it wasn't a bad call, statistically.

On poker-edge.com whats your player rating? I started out as a calling station and lost a shit ton of tournaments. Then I slowly went up to green fish, then red fish, now Bomb... and then if I just fold more pre-flop I'd be a shark. I noticed a direct correlation between win rate and what your player rating is.

[jiang bao]

My prob isn't making bad calls. I do do that sometimes, but I lose way more to suckouts. Just a min ago I went all in with 99 from the BB after 3 guys limped. I got one fish caller with K7 offsuit. And yet as is usual on FT, he hits a gutshot straight.

The board came 10 5 6 3 7. The reason I shoved preflop was to get them to fold cuz I know someone would hit something on the flop and not fold to any bet.

The only times today when I shoved all in when behind was when I had KK and the other guy turned over AA. Then another hand I hit a J high flush on the flop, but then it turned out the other hand hit an A high flush on the flop. Nut with 3 diamonds on the board, and no threat of a FH, you can't lay that down a J high flush.

But I must've been sucked out on at least 4 times in 3 hours of play.

I only play about 40% of flops at six player tables--33% of which hands are as blinds.

[ChuckC]

My prob isn't making bad calls. I do do that sometimes, but I lose way more to suckouts. Just a min ago I went all in with 99 from the BB after 3 guys limped. I got one fish caller with K7 offsuit. And yet as is usual on FT, he hits a gutshot straight.

The board came 10 5 6 3 7. The reason I shoved preflop was to get them to fold cuz I know someone would hit something on the flop and not fold to any bet.

The only times today when I shoved all in when behind was when I had KK and the other guy turned over AA. Then another hand I hit a J high flush on the flop, but then it turned out the other hand hit an A high flush on the flop. Nut with 3 diamonds on the board, and no threat of a FH, you can't lay that down a J high flush.

But I must've been sucked out on at least 4 times in 3 hours of play.

I only play about 40% of flops at six player tables--33% of which hands are as blinds.

Yeah, we all get bad beats. But suckouts and bad beats are to be factored in, which is why you don't invest too much of your bankroll at buy-in.

I prefer 9-handed tables. They will respect your raises more and will interpret your bets more rationally than 6-handed. The smaller-handed it is, the more of a game of chicken it becomes. Heads-up is just ridiculous game of chicken to me, but I understand some players love that situation.

Well, can't argue with shoving KK or Jack-high flush on a 3-diamond flop (for fear that someone wants to draw one more diamond for the nut). However, I probably wouldn't shove pocket 9s on the BB at a cash table. I would only do that late-stage tournament or SnG situation, or if I'm short-stacked and near tilt.

I would have just raised with 9s. Maybe some fish would call it, just like on facebook poker. Then c-bet on flop and value bet the turn if they're just calling. Then maybe check the river or fire one more bullet, depending on my read on those players. I'd have pokercrusher installed for sure to see what kind of player they are. Maybe one ******* will float and bet into you on turn or river, at which point I'd probably pin him on A-10 or K-10 and fold it. But at least you'd have a partial stack left. 9s just don't hold up and you can't overpower a calling station/fish. They'll call till their chips are gone.

[jiang bao]

Well, in that J high flush hand, I only bet partially. I didn't shove all in on the flop. The guy just called (can't blame him, holding the nuts). I was pretty much pot commited and would have to call if I checked and he raised me all in on the river. Just one of those hands.

With the 99 preflop shove, I was hoping for all folds or 2 folds and one call. I didn't think any of them had a higher pair. And even against two overcards, I would have been a small fav. But the feeling I got was that none of them were strong, which turned out I was right, but he happened to hit a runner runner straight. I mean, why would anyone call with K7 there? There's no way he is the favorite. The only reason is to try to get lucky, which on FT does happen more often than not, so I guess it's not that bad a play.

I would rather lose to a K there. But that's not even close to the worst beat I've gotten at FTP.

It makes me paranoid now. I laid now AK suited preflop to two reraises after my inital raise. I was playing tight so I figured they had to know that I had something. (If it was just one reraise, I would have called) Turned out they only had AQ and KQ. I woulda won it with a FH (to flush... damn Fulltilt with these insane hands to entice bets so it gets more in rake) if I called, but hindsight's 20/20.

Just need to take a day or two off after a bad run like that. Played some this morning. Heading out now and play more this evening. At least no bad beats yet today LOL.
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Edi:L Spoke too soon LOL. Second session today... didn't take long for some dude to call my preflop check reraise all in with A3... and took down my KK. It was a 2 outter cuz a second guy folded an ace he said.

Also lost 88 to 55. Damn 2 outter again hits on the river.

I only buy in for the min. 40 cents now... No matter how well I play, fulltilt is rigged. (I did get suckered into calling AA preflop with another 88, but that was my only mistake today) I just hope to stay even and get my bonus money gradually cleared up as I play.

[ChuckC]

NL Holdem is the most impacted poker game in terms of competition. You can be holding the nuts or top pair on the flop and end up losing your stack.

PL Holdem may be best for you, because you like to shoot. My most profitable cash sessions are in:

PL Holdem. Keeps your risk of losing your stack lower.
Limit Stud Hi/Lo. Street-by-street stud makes it easier for you to fold.
Limit Omaha Hi/Lo. Omaha is an easier game to make money in, because it is a lot easier to know when you're beat.
Limit Razz. Same with stud hi/lo, you know more often when to fold.

I play hi/lo because over 70% of the time at showdown I can at least recoup my investment on the hand by making a low, with a full scoop of about 12%.

I will almost always get drawn down or lose my stack in a prolonged period of NL Holdem. This is for the reasons you described. I've had my pocket Aces cracked 3 out of last 5 shootouts.

[jiang bao]

playing now, luck been better. i am trimming down to a min. 40 cent buy in. Been playing a little higher stakes (since that clears the bonus at a faster pace) and been sucked out on which killed me.

My initial in was only $100. Had got up to $13 in profit but went down to -$3 at my worst. Now back to about +$2.50.

Getting them all in while I am 4:1 fav. is supposed to be profitable in the long run... but on a rigged system like FT, it just means repeated butt raping.

KK got taken down again. Lost both times I got it. Ace hit on the board again.

[ChuckC]

Hey jiang what's your handle on full tilt? I'm probably going to sit at the stud cash tables, but love to watch you play so I can chuckle at your aggressive moves.

[jiang bao]

nah i m keeping that secret.

I know you probably think I lose cuz I play badly, and I am just whining about bad luck. It is hard to believe all the incredible bad beats I get so I don't blame you. (I am not the only one. I see others get absolutely sick beats too)

I play the tight aggressive style, and I will push when I know I have the best hand. Almost all the time I am right. The problem is the frequency of suckouts makes it not fun. I don't expect to win everytime, but if I have my money in there 3:1, 4:1, I expect to at least win 2/3 of the time, not 50/50.

I just did my own sucking out though. I just have to become looser to adapt. I knew the guy had top pair kings. I was holding A10 suited spades with 2 spades on the board. He put in a pot size bet. Normally I fold it, but I was just sick of people sucking out on me while I fold draws, so I decided to go for it. Turn was no help. He fired another bet and I made a bad call again, but sucked out and doubled up. FT rewards bad play so I will adapt.

I assume you play there too. Have you not experienced the frequency of the sickening suckouts?

[ChuckC]

Hahah I won't think you're a bad player. I don't have enough information on you to make that assessment and besides, certain playstyles match up better than others.

Yes, I've experienced suckouts and bad beats before but that number is equal to the times I've sucked out and beaten players. It happens. I have a couple videos of my suckouts and best hands, I'll post those in a bit.

There's a guy named PoLikesPho sitting to my left on stud table, so I thought that might have been you LOL.

nah i m keeping that secret.

I know you probably think I lose cuz I play badly, and I am just whining about bad luck. It is hard to believe all the incredible bad beats I get so I don't blame you. (I am not the only one. I see others get absolutely sick beats too)

I play the tight aggressive style, and I will push when I know I have the best hand. Almost all the time I am right. The problem is the frequency of suckouts makes it not fun. I don't expect to win everytime, but if I have my money in there 3:1, 4:1, I expect to at least win 2/3 of the time, not 50/50.

I just did my own sucking out though. I just have to become looser to adapt. I knew the guy had top pair kings. I was holding A10 suited spades with 2 spades on the board. He put in a pot size bet. Normally I fold it, but I was just sick of people sucking out on me while I fold draws, so I decided to go for it. Turn was no help. He fired another bet and I made a bad call again, but sucked out and doubled up. FT rewards bad play so I will adapt.

I assume you play there too. Have you not experienced the frequency of the sickening suckouts?

[ChuckC]

Me (RockstarOC) versus Zednic. Two BOMB-rated players in a 6-handed situation. Rockstar has semi-loose hand selection, Zednic is a loose player.

Note: When two bombs are in a hand together, one will frequently get knocked out or lose a huge part of their stack due to the aggressive betting nature of those playstyles.

Zednic raises from UTG+1 with KT suited.
Rockstar calls from BB with suited J9 spades.
Flop is K(s) T(s) Q(s). Rockstar holds a Queen-High Straight-Flush. Zednic has 2-pair.
Rockstar Checks (slow-playing)
Zednic bets.
Rockstar Calls.
Turn is 2(s)
Rockstar Value-Bets.
Zednic Calls.
River is 5(d)
Rockstar Value-Bets.
Zednic Calls.

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Total pot is over $80. In retrospect, Zednic should have folded the turn. It's understandable for him to think I did not flop a flush, but once the turn came it's no longer a good time for him to bluff if I've called his C-bet on the flop. This is a situation where an aggressive player will often get caught from behind by someone holding the nuts on him.

[ChuckC]

Jiang, you might know this scenario all too well. They call KK "Ace Magnets" for a reason.

This is at the final table of a Full Tilt Tournament. At this time, the blinds are substantial and you can no longer afford to play too tightly.

Holding suited KA, I raise hard from UTG. Big Blind shoves all-in with his KK. Result:

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Quad-Aces for Rockstar. Not really a bad beat for KissThis, considering the premium draw of AK suited. But that's just overkill.

[jiang bao]

Me (RockstarOC) versus Zednic. Two BOMB-rated players in a 6-handed situation. Rockstar has semi-loose hand selection, Zednic is a loose player.

Note: When two bombs are in a hand together, one will frequently get knocked out or lose a huge part of their stack due to the aggressive betting nature of those playstyles.

Zednic raises from UTG+1 with KT suited.
Rockstar calls from BB with suited J9 spades.
Flop is K(s) T(s) Q(s). Rockstar holds a Queen-High Straight-Flush. Zednic has 2-pair.
Rockstar Checks (slow-playing)
Zednic bets.
Rockstar Calls.
Turn is 2(s)
Rockstar Value-Bets.
Zednic Calls.
River is 5(d)
Rockstar Value-Bets.
Zednic Calls.

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Total pot is over $80. In retrospect, Zednic should have folded the turn. It's understandable for him to think I did not flop a flush, but once the turn came it's no longer a good time for him to bluff if I've called his C-bet on the flop. This is a situation where an aggressive player will often get caught from behind by someone holding the nuts on him.

Well, that dude obviously is a fish and plays dumb for fairly high stakes. I play way more online than in real life, but the frequency of bad beats at FT is way worse than in real life. The primary reason, I guess, is that in real life the ppl I play with know that I am generally a tight player, so they fold when they should fold, so it never goes to a showdown suckout situation. That, plus the likely rigged system to entice looser gameplay results in the frequency of bad beats.

I should start keeping track of how often I win when I have a pocket pair against a pocket under pair. The thing is, when I get a terrible beat, I usually just leave the table in anger LOL and don’t remember to save the log. The long run probability I think is probably like 4:1 when having a higher pocket pair against a lower pocket pair (too lazy to check now). Lost both times in the only two situations (88 vs. 55 and AA vs. 99). So far in my time at FT there’s no way that’s close to 4:1. It’s probably not even 2:1.

Now trimming back to the min. buy in, I limit my losses when I get a bad beat

[ChuckC]

Hehe well I tried some FTP tournaments out today. The bad beat bug hit me, too.

I was monkeying around and called a huge raise with KQoffsuit. Flop was like 2(d) 7(d) K(h). He goes all in, I call all-in as well.

I assume he hit the K and I figure I'd risk him having KA, maybe I'll hit him with runners. Well as it turns out, he had 2-4 suited hearts. The turn and river were both hearts so he flushes me out.

So that's my bullsh*t hand for the day. Knocked out early.

[jiang bao]

Have you been able to get in on any freeroll tournies for $? I only see restricted when I look for them.

Yesterday I only got to play like 40 hands cuz I got home late. First couple of hands I screwed up bad. The guy put in a huge raise on the river (2x pot) as the third spade hit on the board. (I am sitting on trip 3s, which I hit on the turn and put in a small bet—2/3 pot. I had checked the river, which was a mistake too… shoulda put in a small-medium bet and see if he reraised.) I thought why would anyone overbet if he had the flush there if he wants calls? So I called it with trips plus a high kicker. I forget this is Fulltilt… My stupidity. Can’t blame bad beat for that. I made the money back though, luckily this time.

Your hand, at least you were behind when you shipped your money in. Nothing really you could have done about it, but it’s better than getting killed on a 2 outter on the river.

And what’s your fav starting hand? (excluding the monster hands QQ and above) I really like 10 8 suited but even just unsuited. I seem to have my best luck with that.
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Just saw the gayest hand ever. I had AK and raised 3.5x BB. Two callers. I had position. Flop comes with scrap. No raises. Turn is another crap card. Two checks, and I raised about half the pot. The SB raises all in with like $1.5 into a pot of about 40 cents. The BB calls all in. Something seemed off, but I decided to just fold it given the crazy way some FT players bet, one of them must have had something.

The guy who raised only had AJ and the other guy had 62(!) and a gutshot str draw (4 outs!!). I would have been out in front. I was mad at myself for a sec... then the 5 comes on the river and the guy who made the worst call quite possibly ever wins.

Fulltilt... total BS. At least it wasn't my butt being sodomized this time. Damn site gimme my bonus and let me leave. Never again will I play there once I withdraw my $.

[ChuckC]

Yeah I started out doing only freerolls, would get into em all day. There are about one or two where you can only register on a website, not through the full tilt poker interface. You'll see the link to it in the tournament description.

There are several of them every hour for U.S players that only appear for about 20 seconds and then they are filled up. You'll want to set up an alarm system about 2 minutes early so that you can start spamming the register button to get in. I play the horse, razz, and holdem freerolls.

I've actually managed to win one. however, most of the time I get knocked out. You have to get past 1700 terrible players, and bad beats do happen. They will often shoot anything from anywhere.

And I'm tellin you, Full Tilt is not BS. Thats just poker. You're going to get sucked out a lot. But statistically if you go in with top hands they will hold up more than 50% of the time. AA is 85% favorite heads up, but as soon as you get 2 callers it goes down to like 60%. If you play at the low-stakes tables, people call anyways because it's not a huge investment of real cash to call a raise of 15 cents.

My favorite starting hands. Well I have no problem with 8T or any suited one-gapper from late position, as long as I have a stack to draw. I actually prefer calling with suited gappers and connectors over hands like AQ and KQ, because the gappers are impossible to read and are generally not dominated.

I will also bring in suited Ace-rags for a flop check. If I flop 2 suits with one to draw, I'll play it aggressively. I will also work non-suited connectors into the equation if I'm priced in and late-position.

But I follow the standard Full Tilt Pro methodology for 9-handed games. This includes a set selection with guidelines for raising by position. That is to play only a certain range from position and I'm very disciplined about it.

• UTG or UTG+1: Fold AJ and below, fold 10s and below. 2x raise from this position. Do not play AJ from UTG until about 6-handed, at which point you can play it very aggressively.
• Mid Position: Fold A10 and below, fold 8s and below. 2.5x raise from this position.
• Late Position: Button and blinds can call with anything if it makes sense. 3x raise from this position if folded to you.

Final table, final 3 spots. Many pros agree this is the time to gamble.
Shoot or move all-in with Q8, K8, or Ace high or better.

[jiang bao]

When i don't get sucked out, I win. 6 showdowns, 6 times ahead, no suckouts, yet. Of course, with a crappy 40 cent buyin, my winnng is limited. Why couldn't I have fair luck when I played higher stakes. All total BS luck then.
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Ooh just quadrupled up... still only $1 something, but better than losing, right?

First hand at the table. I had k10 on BB. Everyone limps in. Family pot.

Flop's KK4 (2 diamonds). I am second to act, a check raise probably gives away the K and could give away free card, so I put in a 50% of pot bet to look like either pot building or feeler bet. Got 3 callers, which makes me think at least two are on flush draws, which means 2 fewer outs. I had 10d so that's another out fewer.

Turn's Jc, I check and hope someone bets. The next guy does bet 12 into 36, 2 calls (I feel pretty confident now no one else has a K) so I push my remaining 32 cents in. If they all fold, I am fine with that. And if someone calls, I am in good shape too. Everyone calls. The river is 10h, a perfect card for me.

Turns out they all had suited diamonds, so there were 4 outs maximum left in the deck going to the turn (the two who folded could have had 1 or 2 diamonds too). It feels good not to be butt raped by FT for a change. Normally I woulda lost on the river despite only 4 outs.

[ChuckC]

Yeah dude, I'm tellin ya. If you keep playing strong hands, you will come out ahead in the long run. Sure, you can get sucked out 49.999% of the time.

The main issue for you seems to be suckouts. So my guess is pre-flop hand selection needs tightening up, and position needs to be more emphasized. You should be playing more than half of your hands from late position and very few from early.

If you just keep track of your stats, position play, and your poker-edge rating, you will see a direct correlation with profitability and win rate. It's not rocket science, it works.

[yittz]

Yay, poker is alive again. I went out today on pocket Aces with a flush draw after the flop. I know that's pretty common, but still frustrating to see people call you when you do a strong raise during preflop.

[jiang bao]

Yeah dude, I'm tellin ya. If you keep playing strong hands, you will come out ahead in the long run. Sure, you can get sucked out 49.999% of the time.

The main issue for you seems to be suckouts. So my guess is pre-flop hand selection needs tightening up, and position needs to be more emphasized. You should be playing more than half of your hands from late position and very few from early.

If you just keep track of your stats, position play, and your poker-edge rating, you will see a direct correlation with profitability and win rate. It's not rocket science, it works.

I am actually very tight. Usually the only time I preflop raise without a big hand (9s or better) is if I haven’t raise in a long time, I am the button, or I am one away from the button.

I mean, again, it’s hard to believe the kind of bad beats I’ve had if you haven’t experienced it for yourself. Without a flawed game script designed to attract more betting, I should be up about $15-$20 now. I have not played perfectly, but I have played well enough to be winning even if I just had 50% fewer bad beats. When I was on tilt a few times after the insane bad beats, I screwed up several times which cost me about $2 total in bad play. Bad beats happen, and I am perfectly ok with them, if they occur once in a while (say 20% - 25%, which would be a fair percentage given the appropriate odds when I shove), but not close to half the time. Last night, I only had 1 truly bad beat so I was ok with it. 99 beat my QQ. Some guy also hit a Q with AQ on the turn to beat my own 99, but it was a coin flip going in, so no biggie.
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Edit: didn't take long... pocket aces cracked again... by pocket 3s.

But this, is the worst beat ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crn09...eature=related