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Thread: Individual 9 Yum martial arts inferior to Greats' martial arts?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Individual 9 Yum martial arts inferior to Greats' martial arts?

    Taken as a complete package, the 9 Yum Jen Ging represented a system of martial arts that was superior to the native skills of the L/ROCH Greats. Considering only the 9 Yum Jen Ging's component skills separately, however, none of them seem to be as powerful as the Greats' native skills. For example, I don't see the 9 Yum White Bone Claws or Heart Penetrating Palm being able to stand up to the likes of Hong Lung 18 Palms, 1 Yeung Finger Technique, or Ha Mo Gung. 9 Yum White Bone Claws users, in fact, without exception do poorly against Greats-level fighters.

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    Senior Member S Beaver's Avatar
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    in the third edition, i believe they changed 9 yin white bone claw & heart penetrating palm to be Huang Shang's enemy's arts instead.

    I wouldn't say the "skills" inside 9 yin are superior to that of the Great's original martial arts. I don't remember seeing such statements. It was only said that the martial arts & theories inside are highly advanced and the skills were not below that of the Greats.
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    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
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    I would say the actual skills within 9 Yin are comparable to Shaolin 72 Arts and other advanced arts.

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    Senior Member wuyuejin's Avatar
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    HS wrote the 9 Yin Manual based on principles of Taoism and the martial arts of his enemies who came from the Ming Cult and were probably not as powerful as the original Greats.
    9 Yin internal techniques >= HYS, HQG, YD, OYF's internal techniques.
    The whole set of 9 Yin external techniques = HYS, HQG, YD, OYF's external techniques.
    Each individual 9 Yin technique < signature techniques like XL18P, 1YZ, etc.
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    I don't think there was a single 9 yin white bone claw and heart penetrating palm user after Huang Shang who had the full 9 Yin inner power development. No surprise that the whole technique did not manifest its full power.

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    Senior Member S Beaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuyuejin View Post
    The whole set of 9 Yin external techniques = HYS, HQG, YD, OYF's external techniques.
    Each individual 9 Yin technique < signature techniques like XL18P, 1YZ, etc.
    not necessarily. Most of these techniques arn't interdependent like each of the 18 Dragon Subduing Palms are linked to each other. This mean, it technically makes no difference in power between practicing one art or multiple art, though it does provide lots of versatility. It's like, practicing 1 Yang Finger is not necessarily going to improve the skills of XL18Z, though knowing both will make one a more versatile and perhaps better fighter. Then, of course, there's the whole issue with being a jack of trades/master of none.

    In essence, each individual 9 yin skill are supposedly not weaker than any Great's elite martial arts.
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    Junior Member 东邪黄药师's Avatar
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    I think it was the artist himself/herself that made 9yin external techniques look weak/strong.

    ZBT did use a Demon-Subduing Skill against YG's Sad Palms and he won (part where YG tried to get ZBT to meet Yinggu).

    That said, I won't go as far to say that 9yin external techniques were better or equivalent to XL18Z etc. It is very difficult to do a proper assessment imo. The Greats probably saw no point in trying to learn and refine a new external fighting skill. They were better off focusing on cultivating more internal energy and refining their own techniques.

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    And the 9 Yin Claws and Heart Crushing palms that are mainly talked about are likely the weaker skills in 9 Yin, which is why Mei and Chen were able to learn them without much inner strength. He chose the quickest and most vicious martial arts to get strong considering their shallow inner power. There could be other skills that are much more powerful that he didn't dare to learn.

    If Vacant Fists/Taichi were developed through Taoist theories, there could be similar martial arts in the manual that was overlooked.

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    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    I remember in LOCH 2003 that Mei and Chen hit a roadblock in advancing their 9 Yin claws because they did not have the inner power building part. I don't know if that is in the book. Inner power is everything.

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Depends on the version. For the earlier versions, they didn't have the internal part at all so they just picked the fiercest sounding martial arts and then proceeded to totally misinterpret how to train the skills.

    I think in the 3rd edition, 9 Yin also had a listing of the heretical martial arts that HS faced and those were the ones Mei and Chen picked to train because it didn't require the internal energy aspect.

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    I wonder if ZBT's Vacant Fists were inspired by a technique in the 9 Yin. He subconsciously learned a bunch of stuff from it, and that particular martial art is based on the Taoist idea that a bowl is only useful because it is empty (i.e. you can put things in it). 9 Yin might have had similar skills perhaps.

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Vacant Fists was based on the highest level of QZ theories which are also Taoist. ZBT only started to subconsiously learn 9 Yin after he deliberately set out to teach GJ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    Vacant Fists was based on the highest level of QZ theories which are also Taoist. ZBT only started to subconsiously learn 9 Yin after he deliberately set out to teach GJ.
    Right, and the highest level of QZ theory is likely still a bit lower than 9 Yin.

    I thought ZBT had memorized and flipped through 9 Yin (without actually practicing actively) throughout his tenure on Peach Blossom Island?

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Yes but he didn't have the complete manual (not even 1/2 since part of the bit he had was in Sanskit). In the end Vacant Fists was still his own creation he mentioned explicitly was based on stuff WCY had explained to him in the past but ZBT didn't understand at the time.

    As for 9 Yin, he incorporated all those moves and subconsciously practiced them after he read the portion GJ had.

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