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Thread: Who would win in a fair fight? Li Xunhuan, or Shangguan Jinhong?

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Default Who would win in a fair fight? Li Xunhuan, or Shangguan Jinhong?

    For the purpose of this discussion, a stipulation must be made: The comment in a later book that Li Xunhuan would always win because he fights on the side of righteousness and justice is to be ignored (mostly because it's just mumbo jumbo).

    It's generally accepted that Shangguan Jinhong is superior to Li Xunhuan, because of this passage:

    "Indeed, he had many chances to kill me. He really could've forced me into a situation where I couldn't even defend myself. But he let the opportunity pass." Li XunHuan said.

    But for someone like ShangGuan JinHong, why would he willingly give up an opportunity like that?

    Sun XiaoHong couldn't help but ask either, "Why was that?"

    Li XunHuan smiled and said, "Because he wanted to take a gamble."

    A spark suddenly shot into Sun XiaoHong's eyes as she said, "He must've not believed in the saying that 'Little Li's flying dagger, once released never misses its target!'"

    "He didn't believe it - he didn't trust anyone, there was not a single thing in the entire world that he trusted." Li XunHuan said.

    "And the result?" Sun XiaoHong asked.

    "He was defeated!" Li XunHuan said.
    But the more I think about it, the more I have doubts. In that fight, Shangguan Jinhong had two huge advantages over Li Xunhuan, which were stated in the book itself:

    1) The presence of Jin Wuming. Jin Wuming's very presence was a huge advantage to Shangguan Jinhong, both psychologically and tactically.

    "Is something wrong with this place?" ShangGuan JinHong said.

    "Originally, no. But now, yes." Li XunHuan said.

    "What is wrong with it?" ShangGuan JinHong said.

    "It's getting too crowded here." Li XunHuan said.

    "Is he making you feel uncomfortable?" ShangGuan JinHong said.

    "Yes." Li XunHuan said.

    He didn't want to hide it. Even if Jing WuMing didn't attack, he was still a threat to him.

    Because his sword could come out at anytime. There was no one in this world who could withstand a combined attack from the two of them.
    At this point in the novel, Ah Fei was the equal of Jin Wuming. Both Li Xunhuan and Shangguan Jinhong felt that if Ah Fei was present, Li Xunhuan would stand a chance; with Ah Fei absent, and Jin Wuming present, he stood none.

    Li XunHuan let out a sigh, he suddenly thought of Ah Fei. If only Ah Fei were here ...

    ShangGuan JinHong read his mind perfectly and said, "If Ah Fei were present then you would have a chance, its unfortunate though ... that he is such a disappointment."
    2) Terrain. The place of the battle was specifically chosen by Shangguan Jinhong; it was his own home! No one in the entire world was more familiar with that place than he was, and it was specifically stated that terrain plays a critical role in a battle:

    "In a duel between experts, not only must you take into account the strengths and weaknesses of a peron's martial arts, but you also consider the weather, surroundings, and people. Since ShangGuan JinHong chose this place for the duel, he must have his reasons." Mr. Sun replied.

    "What reason is that?" Sun XiaoHong said.

    "He must be very familiar with the terrain here, he might have even come here earlier to set up traps." Mr. Sun said.

    "So Li XunHuan must come here beforehand to look around and inspect whether ShangGuan JinHong had set up traps and where they could be." SUn XiaoHong said.

    "Exactly. The generals of old would always patrol the site before an important battle. No matter what kind of battle, as long as one first observes the surroundings, one will ensure an advantage." Mr. Sun said.

    "But why is he strolling back and forth at that spot?" Sun XiaoHong asked.

    "That back and forth stroll has its purpose as well." Mr. Sun said with a laugh.

    "Huh?" Sun XiaoHong said.

    "He wants to walk over every inch of dirt here and see how the surface is. He wants to know whether it's soft, whether it's parched, or whether it's damp." Mr. Sun replied.

    "And what use is that?" Sun XiaoHong said.

    "Because the dirt can be different at different spots, it can affect one's lightness. If when using seven-tenths of your strength you are able to leap seven meters on wet dirt, on solid dirt you can leap ten meters." Mr. Sun said.
    So yes, Shangguan Jinhong was definitely in a far superior position to Li Xunhuan in their duel. He had the advantage of Jin Wuming, and he had the advantage of terrain.

    If it weren't for that, I honestly believe that Li Xunhuan and Shangguan Jinhong actually were equals.

    1) Although Shangguan Jinhong was ranked ahead of Li Xunhuan in the 'Book of Weapons' by Bai Xiaosheng, it was made clear that even in Book 1, upon his death, Bai Xiaosheng realized that he had underestimated the speed of Li Xunhuan's dagger.

    Bai Xiao Sheng's eyes filled with hate, staring at Li Xun Huan. His whole body showed immense disbelief and shock.

    Even in death, he could not believe that Li Xun Huan's dagger is in his throat.

    His mouth is still trying to say something, except he couldn't say it. But everyone can see that he was trying to say, "I'm wrong... I'm wrong..."

    That's right. Bai Xiao Sheng knows all, sees all, but was wrong about one thing.

    Little Li's Flying Dagger is much more faster then even he had ever imagined!
    2) The verbal and philosophical exchanges between the two indicate a level of parity:


    ShangGuan JinHong's hands finally emerged from his sleeves.

    His hands were empty.

    "Where are your rings?" Li XunHuan asked him.

    "They are here." ShangGuan JinHong answered.

    "Where?" Li XunHuan asked again.

    "In my heart." ShangGuan JinHong replied.

    "Your heart?" Li XunHuan said.

    "The rings aren't in my hands, the rings are in my heart!" ShangGuan JinHong said.

    Li XunHuan's eyes suddenly shrunk.

    ShangGuan JinHong's rings, they could not be seen!

    Because they cannot be seen, they could be anywhere. They could be right before your eyes, right in front of your throat, or right next to your soul.

    Even when your entire being has been destroyed, you still wouldn't know from where they came!

    "The rings aren't in hand, but the rings are in the heart."

    This is the pinnacle or martial arts!

    This was the level of gods and immortals.

    But no one understood. That is, no one except Li XunHuan.

    [...]

    "Seven years ago, my hands had finally become formless." ShangGuan JinHong said.

    "I'm in awe." Li XunHuan said.

    "You understand?" ShangGuan JinHong asked.

    "Subtle and exquisite, there are no rings, there is no self. No trace left to be found, and no barrier left that is unbreakable." Li XunHuan said.

    "Wonderful! You really do understand!" ShangGuan JinHong exclaimed.

    "To comprehend is to not comprehend, to not understand is to understand.

    The two of them were like two Zen masters engaged in a duel of rhetoric.

    Except for the two of them, no one else understood a word.

    They did not understand, that's why it was so terrifying ...

    [...]

    "Very well, make your move!" ShangGuan JinHong said.

    "My moves are already here!" Li XunHuan said.

    ShangGuan JinHong looked a little confused and asked, "Where?"

    "In the heart. The moves are not in this dagger, the moves are in my heart."

    ShangGuan JinHong's eyes suddenly shrunk as well!

    Those who couldn't see where ShangGuan JinHong's rings resided, couldn't see where Li XuHuan's moves were either.

    But when the rings arrive, the moves would emerge!
    3) Old Man Sun believed that 'no one can answer' the question of who was 'currently winning' the battle between the two.

    4) Although the following quote was about their personalities, it is an exemplar of the 'opposite parity' which Gulong put into their characters. This was shortly after the duel they made, which was interrupted by Old Man Sun:

    "Although their auras and actions are completely different, the two of them ... the two of them both aren't human. The things that they do, humans are just not capable of doing."

    "Yes, there is some sense in your words, the two of them really are inhuman, except ... one of them is a saint, while the other one is a demon."

    The line between kindness and evil is thin, the difference between a saint and a demon lies in between.

    "Right, if Li XunHuan was not Li XunHuan, then he could very well be ShangGuan JinHong."
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Han Solo's Avatar
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    Nice analysis RWX.

    I always felt cheated by the ending of Ruthless Sword, Sentimental Swordsman.

    Talk about another anti-climatic GL ending.

    I always felt that SGJH is a bit better than LXH, but this is counteracted by his haughty, proud presence --> thus he is not as calm as LXH and is more liable to make a mistake against LXH. A single mistake against LXH could prove fatal.

    If this is a fight to the death, then i think that LXH could prevail. GL seldom wrote stories about his protagonist failing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss
    I think they're probably at the same level as or one level below Ah Qing, which is about the level of a 2nd or 3rd generation Quan Zhen disciple.
    Troll Control

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    I take Li's words at face value.

    If SGJH did not expose himself in order to let Li release his dagger, I think Li would lose.

    Question : Do you think Hu Bugui's capture of Li would have worked if it was SGJH instead of Li?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    I take Li's words at face value.

    If SGJH did not expose himself in order to let Li release his dagger, I think Li would lose.

    Question : Do you think Hu Bugui's capture of Li would have worked if it was SGJH instead of Li?
    Well, I agree; that being said, the question is, if SGJ didn't have Jin Wuming by him, AND if they weren't fighting in terrain he was far more familiar with than Li, would Li still have lost?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Well, I agree; that being said, the question is, if SGJ didn't have Jin Wuming by him, AND if they weren't fighting in terrain he was far more familiar with than Li, would Li still have lost?

    If they were in an open field with the sun at high noon and no wind and flat ground etc etc etc,

    yeah I think SGJH would win if he went for the kill and did not dick around.

    The other way to win is for SGJH to get really phat.
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    The core of the issue is that SGJH "allowed" LXH to release his dagger in order to test the myth that Little Li's dagger is never released in vain. He wanted to test the technique/speed of LXH's dagger.

    The issue of terrain is irrelevant since it was not really a standard duel. I would have thought that the presence of Jin Wuming might have affected Li, but then he is an elite, and really he had no choice but to unleash his dagger.

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    In Biancheng Langzi, Jing Wuming, who was the only witness of that battle, clearly states that Shangguan Jinhong's martial arts was above that of Li. I don't think he had any reason to lie at that point.

    I think the main reason Shangguan Jinhong took such a silly gamble was because he had so many advantages at his side. If the playing field was exactly equal, Shangguan Jinhong might not've been so haughty and would've fought Li Xunhuan straight up. All evidence points to Shangguan killing Li under those circumstances.

    But ... if we are to take author's intent into account ... righteousness would've snuck up on Shangguan at the last possible second, guiding Li's dagger backwards making a 180 degree loop around SGJH and stabbing him between the eyes.
    明月心跳起來,又回頭,嫣然道,“你還要不要我帶上那面具?”
    傅紅雪冷道,“現在你臉上豈非已經戴上了個面具?”

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss View Post
    But ... if we are to take author's intent into account ... righteousness would've snuck up on Shangguan at the last possible second, guiding Li's dagger backwards making a 180 degree loop around SGJH and stabbing him between the eyes.
    Have you been replaced by me or CC ?

    Velgome to ze club!
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    What makes comparing Lee Chum Foon and Seung Gwoon Gum Hung difficult, despite their both being wulin elites of the first order, is that their styles of combat and respective strengths and weaknesses were so different.

    Lee Chum Foon - best from long range. Close-in combat skills good, but not elite. Inner power not known to be significant.

    Seung Gwoon Gum Hung - best from close range. Close-in combat skills among the very best. Inner power was definitely significant.

    From a distance of several meters, the duel is decidedly in Lee Chum Foon's favor.

    From grappling distance, the duel is decidedly in Seung Gwoon Gum Hung's favor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    What makes comparing Lee Chum Foon and Seung Gwoon Gum Hung difficult, despite their both being wulin elites of the first order, is that their styles of combat and respective strengths and weaknesses were so different.

    Lee Chum Foon - best from long range. Close-in combat skills good, but not elite. Inner power not known to be significant.

    Seung Gwoon Gum Hung - best from close range. Close-in combat skills among the very best. Inner power was definitely significant.

    From a distance of several meters, the duel is decidedly in Lee Chum Foon's favor.

    From grappling distance, the duel is decidedly in Seung Gwoon Gum Hung's favor.
    I don't think GL characters are so easy to simplify. The GL martial arts are a bit more hazy.

    For example, I would have thought that Li's close in skill and inner power was nothing incredible but he stopped Guo Songyang's Solar Apex Iron Sword (which in my mind, is a bit like YG's HIS) while holding his dagger in his hand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    I don't think GL characters are so easy to simplify. The GL martial arts are a bit more hazy.

    For example, I would have thought that Li's close in skill and inner power was nothing incredible but he stopped Guo Songyang's Solar Apex Iron Sword (which in my mind, is a bit like YG's HIS) while holding his dagger in his hand.
    That was pretty exceptional, but we didn't see Lee Chum Foon do that kind of stuff very often. Usually, when he had to fight hand-to-hand or with a sword, he didn't do particularly well. I always imagine that if Lee had to face off against Seung Gwoon Gum Hung, Ging Mo Meng, or Ah Fei without his famous dagger, they'd utterly waste him without breaking a sweat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    That was pretty exceptional, but we didn't see Lee Chum Foon do that kind of stuff very often. Usually, when he had to fight hand-to-hand or with a sword, he didn't do particularly well. I always imagine that if Lee had to face off against Seung Gwoon Gum Hung, Ging Mo Meng, or Ah Fei without his famous dagger, they'd utterly waste him without breaking a sweat.
    Point is, we never really saw Li fight hand to hand. The only exception was with Hu Bugui but that was with trickery and Hu Bugui is also amongst the top fighters.

    So we use what evidence we can and it seemed that with a hand held dagger, he stopped Guo's sword.
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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Point is, we never really saw Li fight hand to hand. The only exception was with Hu Bugui but that was with trickery and Hu Bugui is also amongst the top fighters.
    Didn't that dude who escorted him to Shaolin (that...something "7" guy) knock him out cold with a single blow? Granted, that was a sucker punch (from behind), but still...

    Also, Lee Chum Foon dueled his treacherous sworn brother Lung Siu Wan, and although Lee won, it wasn't a one-sided duel. Lee had to put some effort into it, and Lung wasn't *that* great a swordsman (definitely nobody who would worry Gwok Sung Yeung, Ah Fei, or Ging Mo Meng).

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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss View Post
    But ... if we are to take author's intent into account ... righteousness would've snuck up on Shangguan at the last possible second, guiding Li's dagger backwards making a 180 degree loop around SGJH and stabbing him between the eyes.

    But before that;



    Shangguan's hands would have reached Li's heart!

    NOTHING in the world can stop Shangguan's fingers from crushing Li's heart now!

    The Heaven and the Earth holds it breath.

    The dagger is frozen in space. Held like a needle pinned by the heaviest hammer.

    Nothing moves, nothing makes a sound.

    Time is still.

    But how can time hold the fire of righteousness?

    The dagger flashes with a bright light.

    The dagger is between Shangguan's eyes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    Didn't that dude who escorted him to Shaolin (that...something "7" guy) knock him out cold with a single blow? Granted, that was a sucker punch (from behind), but still...

    Also, Lee Chum Foon dueled his treacherous sworn brother Lung Siu Wan, and although Lee won, it wasn't a one-sided duel. Lee had to put some effort into it, and Lung wasn't *that* great a swordsman (definitely nobody who would worry Gwok Sung Yeung, Ah Fei, or Ging Mo Meng).
    Both sound like TVB nonsense. Never happened in the novel. And Long Xiaoyun was light-years behind LXH; if the two were to ever actually fight, LXH would beat him without blinking, dagger or no.

    Btw, this book has been fully translated Ken, so anytime you want to check it out...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post

    Btw, this book has been fully translated Ken, so anytime you want to check it out...
    Its not in proper pdf format and the entire Quadrilogy of Flying Dagger, Bordertown, September Eagle and Horizon Blade hasn't been completed
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Its not in proper pdf format and the entire Quadrilogy of Flying Dagger, Bordertown, September Eagle and Horizon Blade hasn't been completed
    I will shoot you in the freaking face.
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    Going along with the notion of gaps between fighters from the other thread, anyone notice that the gap between ranked weapons/users in the Book of Weapons were ridiculously huge?

    One that really bothered me was how Shangguan crushed Lu Fengxian's life/morale without lifting a finger. All he had to do was steal his woman. Classic Gu Long pre-battle hype at its finest, so sublime that there was no battle at all. Overcoming the battle with no battle.
    明月心跳起來,又回頭,嫣然道,“你還要不要我帶上那面具?”
    傅紅雪冷道,“現在你臉上豈非已經戴上了個面具?”

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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss View Post
    Going along with the notion of gaps between fighters from the other thread, anyone notice that the gap between ranked weapons/users in the Book of Weapons were ridiculously huge?

    One that really bothered me was how Shangguan crushed Lu Fengxian's life/morale without lifting a finger. All he had to do was steal his woman. Classic Gu Long pre-battle hype at its finest, so sublime that there was no battle at all. Overcoming the battle with no battle.
    Not that much difference between the top 3 I think. Then there seems to be a slight gap to 4 (Guo right?). Then a bigger gap to 5. Then between 5-10 it didnt seem that far. I think the biggest gap is between the top 3-4 and the rest of the bunch. However, the list also ignores guys like Jin and Fei who could easily sit at 4 and 5 position.

    I didn't like how lousy Lu Fengxian seemed in that scene (GL avoiding having to write a fight as usual!). But I also guess that if it was anyone else stealing his woman (other then Shangguan), Lu wouldn't have been crushed so easily.
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    If ShangGuan JinHong did not try to test Li XunHuan's dagger, he would not be ShangGuan JinHong!
    Reverend Rongku prepared himself.

    Suddenly, he toss his hands and screamed: "I am not human! I am an animal!"

    The crowd startled at such a bizarre beginning to the story.

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