Wind power---a 'can of worms'

[JamesG]

I've been hearing more and more stories of wind power problems that are not getting much media coverage. Check this out:
http://www.aweo.org/ProblemWithWind.html

Even the fact that space and ground based temperature monitoring have showed a decline for the past 4 or 5 years gets scant, if any, mention. Too many scientific and political reputations are at risk. Of course the media will blame both if the myth of 'Global Warming' turns out to be wrong.

[jiang bao]

I am no expert on global warming, but I do know that the climate is measured in terms of average over a long period of time. That temperature may or may not be higher in a span of a few years doesn’t mean much. Some people still refer to evolution as a myth, so I guess there’ll always be skeptics.

The world is in need of alternative energies. They will be more costly than oil, but that doesn’t mean the world doesn’t need them. I’ll probably be in my 50’s at least when the world’s oil is scarce enough to be considered essentially depleted, but I would like my descendants to have a world to live in. Political chaos will likely occur years before actual oil depletion if there are no alternatives found.

Huge alternative energy infrastructure spending is required to set up systems which can contribute enough power to make a difference. Right wingers love to cry about spending and leaving debt to our children, but they seem to care what the world will be like without viable alternative energy solutions.

[JamesG]

The main problem with wind and solar energy sources is that they are not 24/7 like coal, natural gas, hydro or nuclear. Wave and other sea powered sources hold some promise for coastal areas, but whether they will prove to be 24/7 is a question yet to be answered. Steady and 24/7 is the key to a controlable electric grid. We have many wind turbines all a cross southern Alberta and they kill many birds and bats.

[jiang bao]

Yeah there’s problem with pretty much every source of energy. But it’s a matter of balancing long and near term costs and benefits. Fossil fuel reserves are limited and will be depleted in decades. We have to find a viable solution for the sake of future generations of humanity. Solar and wind, while far from perfect, are more abundant than anything we can find in the ground, and are the most likely alternative.

Investing in wind and solar may seem stupid to some people, but once oil reserves run low (and chances are the reported oil reserve numbers are inflated, especially by OPEC, so we’ll run out sooner than the official forecast), oil producers will keep more for themselves. Plus, energy demand will keep growing as countries like China continue to develop. We already saw $147 oil last year, the next time around it could get even more expensive.
We, as a world, instead of being complacent that last year was an anomaly and think that oil will remain cheap so pursuing other more expensive sources of energy is dumb, should get off our butts and create the infrastructure for alternative energy before it’s too late.

[Trien Chieu]

I am no expert on global warming, but I do know that the climate is measured in terms of average over a long period of time. That temperature may or may not be higher in a span of a few years doesn’t mean much. Some people still refer to evolution as a myth, so I guess there’ll always be skeptics.

The world is in need of alternative energies. They will be more costly than oil, but that doesn’t mean the world doesn’t need them. I’ll probably be in my 50’s at least when the world’s oil is scarce enough to be considered essentially depleted, but I would like my descendants to have a world to live in. Political chaos will likely occur years before actual oil depletion if there are no alternatives found.

Huge alternative energy infrastructure spending is required to set up systems which can contribute enough power to make a difference. Right wingers love to cry about spending and leaving debt to our children, but they seem to care what the world will be like without viable alternative energy solutions.

Who is willing to pay for the more expensive alternative energies?? I think it's more important to build more fuel efficient vehicles/machineries and consumers should be encouraged to drive smaller vehicle instead of big SUV.

[yittz]

Agree that it might not be ideal right now, but doesn't mean we should not invest in making it better.

[AndyChrono]

Who is willing to pay for the more expensive alternative energies?? I think it's more important to build more fuel efficient vehicles/machineries and consumers should be encouraged to drive smaller vehicle instead of big SUV.

All that does is delay the inevitable.

The main reason alternatives never gain serious traction is because they just aren't competitive price-wise with fossil fuels. Most people would rather pollute the air a bit more than pay steeper prices for energy. However, as the price of oil rises the renewable alternatives will eventually become competitive and one day even cheaper than fossil fuels.

The fact of the matter is there's a finite amount of fossil fuels on this planet and in the very near future it will be all gone. That's the forecast whether you lean right, left, up, down, or upside down. This also means that eventually, there's going to be massive spending on alternative energies one way or another. Either that or modern civilization will grind to a halt. The severity of the inevitable price hike in fossil fuels will depends on whether there are alternatives available.

Building more efficient vehicles and such is but a temporary stopgap measure to allow for more time to develop alternatives. But make no mistake, the world is going to need alternatives and it's far more prudent to begin now work on them now while fossil fuels are still around to keep things running relatively smoothly.

[JamesG]

The key still is 24/7 availability. Wind, solar-voltaic and solar-reflective [which destroy dessert ecosystems] aren't. At this time the only truly viable alternative is nuclear ...............and nobody wants one in their 'back yard'.

[oGaKirA]

The key still is 24/7 availability. Wind, solar-voltaic and solar-reflective [which destroy dessert ecosystems] aren't. At this time the only truly viable alternative is nuclear ...............and nobody wants one in their 'back yard'.

24/7? I thot the whole idea of wind and solar were also to store in batteries. Therefore making it usable 24/7.

[AndyChrono]

The key still is 24/7 availability. Wind, solar-voltaic and solar-reflective [which destroy dessert ecosystems] aren't. At this time the only truly viable alternative is nuclear ...............and nobody wants one in their 'back yard'.

All the more reason to invest in the development of alternatives.

24/7? I thot the whole idea of wind and solar were also to store in batteries. Therefore making it usable 24/7.

It is. The most viable option in the near future IMO is a combination of solar/wind to charge up hydrogen fuel cells as backup in case of cloudy days and such.

[JamesG]

24/7? I thot the whole idea of wind and solar were also to store in batteries. Therefore making it usable 24/7.

Wind is direct to the grid. Batteries are still not very efficient and inverters are required to convert the DC voltage to AC for the grid. It works, but not very efficienrly.

[jiang bao]

Nuclear plants are also very expensive to set up. Plus the potential environmental contamination/destruction risk is too much.

My family lived near some sort of chemical plant in China, built in the 70's. So many people in the village got cancer, plus my mom later on too. All the fishes in the stream died, and plant life was destroyed around the plant too. Eventually the plant shut down, but it was too late.

Yes I realize it's not the same here and now because we can have strict regulations, but accidents do happen. When nuclear accidents happen... its impact is very serious.

The best solution is solar and wind. By the time oil gets to $200 or more a barrel, and people then cry for alternative energy, it’d be too late. Energy costs affect every facet of life. It’s not like you don’t get affected if you don’t drive or something. The $100+ oil from last year certainly had a hand in the current recession.

[JamesG]

All the more reason to invest in the development of alternatives.



It is. The most viable option in the near future IMO is a combination of solar/wind to charge up hydrogen fuel cells as backup in case of cloudy days and such.

Fuel calls aren't something that can be 'charged-up'. They're stand-alone devices that produce electricity for as long as their hydrogen fuel lasts. They're ok for smallish DC power applicatins, but not for grid power.

[AndyChrono]

Fuel calls aren't something that can be 'charged-up'. They're stand-alone devices that produce electricity for as long as their hydrogen fuel lasts. They're ok for smallish DC power applicatins, but not for grid power.

Both right and wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell

Under In Practice: "Fuel cells cannot store energy like a battery, but in some applications, such as stand-alone power plants based on discontinuous sources such as solar or wind power, they are combined with electrolyzers and storage systems to form an energy storage system."

So while the cells themselves do not actually store power, you can use outside power sources such as wind/solar to create fuel for the cell and just store the fuel. While this isn't literally charging the cell, it achieves the same practical goal. A simple example would be:

1. Wind/solar power into the grid, excess energy used to split water and thus get hydrogen and oxygen for the fuel cell.

2. Store these reactants.

3. Power up the fuel cell with stored reactants when needed (cloudy/rainy/nightime/etc.)

Assuming you have all the proper equipment in place, the only things needed for this to work are sunlight, wind, and water of which we have an abundance.

[JamesG]

If only fuel cells were twice as efficient as they are now, and a lot cheaper, the combined system would not be as cost effective as conventional sources and would have to be subsidised [tax dollars] in order to compete with conventional power sources. It's a Rolls Royce solution. One step missing in your explanation of the system is the electric powered compressor needed to pressurise the hydrogen and oxygen for storage. I won't mention the instrumentation and control needed for the gas separation, compression, storage and fuel feeds to the fuel cells.

[jiang bao]

If infrastructure can be developed on a massive scale for wind and solar power to the degree that they are viable complements to conventional energy sources, and there’ll be no outage situation. The economy needs a kick in the butt, and alternative energy is a good area to create jobs. When oil and industrial metal prices go sky high again, it will just make building the alternative energy infrastructure all the more expensive.

[AndyChrono]

If only fuel cells were twice as efficient as they are now, and a lot cheaper, the combined system would not be as cost effective as conventional sources and would have to be subsidised [tax dollars] in order to compete with conventional power sources. It's a Rolls Royce solution. One step missing in your explanation of the system is the electric powered compressor needed to pressurise the hydrogen and oxygen for storage. I won't mention the instrumentation and control needed for the gas separation, compression, storage and fuel feeds to the fuel cells.

Those things aren't particularly difficult. The only thing missing at the moment is the fuel cell technology efficient enough to work in the system. Like I mentioned earlier, right now fossil fuels are cheaper so energy companies are unwilling to invest heavily in fuel cells them unless its subsidized. But that is certain to change in the future once the global economy recovers. In the near future, fuel cells will likely be cheaper than fossil fuels as the price of fossil fuels continues to increase and fuel cell technology improves. By then, private investment can pick it up and it will no longer require gov't funds.

[JamesG]

Maybe in a 100 yrs we'll find a 'cheap' alternative to coal, but I can't guess what it might be. As for all the jobs Mr. Obama babbles about....don't hold your breath. So far, his crystal ball ain't workong that well.

[Trien Chieu]

Maybe in a 100 yrs we'll find a 'cheap' alternative to coal, but I can't guess what it might be. As for all the jobs Mr. Obama babbles about....don't hold your breath. So far, his crystal ball ain't workong that well.

I think COAL is a very good solution. It's pretty cheap and there are plenty that can last for several hundred years.

[yittz]

I think COAL is a very good solution. It's pretty cheap and there are plenty that can last for several hundred years.

And helps keep Canada warm in the winter.