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Thread: True Power of QKDNY

  1. #21
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    I think a super offensive technique like Dragon Palms would increase his overall ability moreso than Taiji. Taiji seems useful when you have lower inner strength or are old like Zhang Sanfeng, but when you're young and have the highest inner strength in the world, I think it's more advantageous to add something like Dragon Palms where you can just overpower any and every body.

  2. #22
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    taiji is a skill that allows you to conserve your inner power and use it wisely against your foes while HL18Z is a power skill that consumes inner power greatly. if ZWJ did not know taiji and had to use HL18Z against the du monks he might have lost because that fight had went on to a endurance battle by the end. HL18Z cannot be kept up for too long and the du monks had mastered a powerful soft formation that could counter hard.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    QKNDY+Taiji+9Yang: a triangle to rule them all.

    BMSG + 6MSJ + LBWB disagrees....



    If 9 Yin > QKNDY. I wonder why QKNDY helped the post 9 Yang ZWJ much. After all, 9 Yang was supposed to have been written to cover 9 Yin flaws. So 9 Yang supposedly > 9 Yin anyway. In that respect, its 2 levels above QKNDY.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    BMSG + 6MSJ + LBWB disagrees....



    If 9 Yin > QKNDY. I wonder why QKNDY helped the post 9 Yang ZWJ much. After all, 9 Yang was supposed to have been written to cover 9 Yin flaws. So 9 Yang supposedly > 9 Yin anyway. In that respect, its 2 levels above QKNDY.
    I believe it was stated that the Taoist/Confucian/Buddhist guy who wrote 9 Yang didn't know/understand the internal energy parts in Sanskrit or something to that effect, and thought that 9 Yin was too 'Yin', and thus wrote 9 Yang to demonstrate that Yang is not inferior to Yin. Due to his lack of understanding w/regards to the internal energy sections of 9 Yin, he did not realize that 9 Yin was actually perfectly balanced; 9 Yang, however, is extremely Yang, unbalancedly so. In that regards, I would say 9 Yin > 9 Yang.

    Anyhow, QKDNY helped post 9 Yang ZWJ primarily because it released all of the enormous power he got from 9 Yang and allowed him to use it whenever he wanted. That, and it was the first technique he actually learned which could be used in battle.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Anyhow, QKDNY helped post 9 Yang ZWJ primarily because it released all of the enormous power he got from 9 Yang and allowed him to use it whenever he wanted. That, and it was the first technique he actually learned which could be used in battle.
    Didn't he already memorise the entire 7 Injury Fist and he was well capable of using it when he demonstrated it on the tree on Guang Ming Shan. For some reason, he just didnt use it.
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    7SQ seems to primarily be an internal energy driven art; it's ingenuity lies not in its techniques (which I'm not sure if ZWJ even knew) but in the way it struck with seven different types of energies attacking at seven different areas at once when it made contact. Whereas ZWJ has enough internal energy that he can just slam through at a go without really needing the ingenuous multitiered internal energy attack that which 7SQ provides.

    It was physical techniques which he lacked, and which QKDNY provided (via teaching him to see flaws and 'steal'/mimic the attacks of others, like the Dragon Claws).
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    I believe it was stated that the Taoist/Confucian/Buddhist guy who wrote 9 Yang didn't know/understand the internal energy parts in Sanskrit or something to that effect, and thought that 9 Yin was too 'Yin', .
    Anyone can quote this from 3rd edition? Or is it just fan speculation? Since that guy was some Buddhist/Taoist/Confucian genius, him knowing Sanskrit would not be out of the question and if it was not explicitly stated that he did not, we should not assume that he could not.


    As for 7 Injury Fist, again there was no indication that there was no techniques in it. After all XX, made ZWJ memorise the whole script, so ZWJ would know everything.If you want to say 7IF is 'merely' an internal energy blasting art, you could make the same accusation of the vaunted 18 Dragon Palms.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Anyone can quote this from 3rd edition? Or is it just fan speculation? Since that guy was some Buddhist/Taoist/Confucian genius, him knowing Sanskrit would not be out of the question and if it was not explicitly stated that he did not, we should not assume that he could not.
    This was fan speculation (started from this post:
    http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...t=11680&page=2
    ).
    All we got in English was this part (source: wuxiapedia. Originally from Athena- I think):

    Third edition of HSDS
    In the recently revised edition of HSDS, Wang Chongyang is mentioned again in chapter 16. It seems that after Wang Chongyang won the first Huashan tournament he met a Buddhist monk at Songshan. He had a drinking contest with this monk and lost. The bet was if Wang lost, the monk would be allowed to read the Scriptures of Nine Negations.


    If anyone can post the exact part in chapter 16 in Chinese and English would be great.

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    the monk who wrote 9yang was like jue yuan, he had great knowledge of shaolin internal cultivation arts and high inner power but he did not have an extensive martial arts knowledge. he probably did not learn anything beyond the basic boxing skills. he could not read the Sanskrit portion that contained the true 'pure' internal cultivation techniques. he only read the internal cultivation techniques in the front of the book which were the inner power training methods for the skills in the second half. as many of the skills were 9yin based, so was the corresponding internal cultivation technique. the monk tried to correct the inner power cultivation so it was more balanced. he changed the theories for martial arts to a move later arrive first the was different from 9yin because he did not understand advanced martial arts moves so came up with inner power techniques without any moves to defeat the opponent. later when ZSF came up with his own skills, he based it on inner power as well. kong jian and cheng kun both used this against xie xun and ZWJ used it against the kongtong elders.
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    Which is why, in that sense, 9 Yin is superior to 9 Yang. 9 Yang seemed to be superior in terms of being able to heal other's internal, but 9 Ying was more complete. 9 Yin had internal and external arts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyss of the sword View Post
    the monk who wrote 9yang was like jue yuan, he had great knowledge of shaolin internal cultivation arts and high inner power but he did not have an extensive martial arts knowledge. he probably did not learn anything beyond the basic boxing skills. he could not read the Sanskrit portion that contained the true 'pure' internal cultivation techniques. he only read the internal cultivation techniques in the front of the book which were the inner power training methods for the skills in the second half. as many of the skills were 9yin based, so was the corresponding internal cultivation technique. the monk tried to correct the inner power cultivation so it was more balanced. he changed the theories for martial arts to a move later arrive first the was different from 9yin because he did not understand advanced martial arts moves so came up with inner power techniques without any moves to defeat the opponent. later when ZSF came up with his own skills, he based it on inner power as well. kong jian and cheng kun both used this against xie xun and ZWJ used it against the kongtong elders.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    Which is why, in that sense, 9 Yin is superior to 9 Yang. 9 Yang seemed to be superior in terms of being able to heal other's internal, but 9 Ying was more complete. 9 Yin had internal and external arts.


    Did either of you guys read what Muidi wrote? This is just pure fan speculation that the 9 Yang creator could not read Sanskrit or that he had any deficiency in martial art knowledge!
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  12. #32
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    it had been mentioned before that the Sanskrit portion was pure and balanced, and contained the highest internal cultivation techniques, and it was mentioned by rev yideng that whether you follow the buddhist formula or taoist formula, all roads lead to the same place. there would have been no need for the monk to create 9yang if he had read the Sanskrit portion. the author never said the monk could not read sanskrit but it seems to be logical. i don't read chinese but several posters have mentioned that in the latest revisions, it stated the monk who wrote 9yang had a high inner power, thus could defeat WCY in a drinking bout, but lacked martial arts knowledge. since there is unclear if to be true, could someone with the latest editions post that specific portion of the text.
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    where does it say 9yin contains the highest internal cultivation techniques?
    As far as internal cultivation, 9yang seems to surpass just about everything, with not only the pure amount of internal energy and the protection granted by the internal energy as well


    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    Which is why, in that sense, 9 Yin is superior to 9 Yang. 9 Yang seemed to be superior in terms of being able to heal other's internal, but 9 Ying was more complete. 9 Yin had internal and external arts.
    in terms of full martial arts, 9yin might be better because it also provided the actual fighting techniques. but 9yang is at least on par with 9yin in terms of internal energy. Granted, pair 9yang up with a good pure external attack like the ones in 9yin and i think 9yang+that attack would win vs 9yin

    also, for those who said QKDNY < 9yin, what proof is there? Even though Huang Shang did defeat all of Ming Cult's martial artists, no one in Ming Cult, not even the creator of QKDNY was able to learn all seven levels of QKDNY until ZWJ. Therefore, you dont really know 9yin > QKDNY since there was never really a fight between full 9ying and full QKDNY.


    in QKDNY, there were a couple of lines that even ZWJ did not learn (he didnt learn it because he didnt really want to right?). What are those lines? Wouldn't they make him even stronger?
    Last edited by person135; 08-09-09 at 03:17 PM.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by person135 View Post
    also, for those who said QKDNY < 9yin, what proof is there? Even though Huang Shang did defeat all of Ming Cult's martial artists, no one in Ming Cult, not even the creator of QKDNY was able to learn all seven levels of QKDNY until ZWJ. Therefore, you dont really know 9yin > QKDNY since there was never really a fight between full 9ying and full QKDNY.

    in QKDNY, there were a couple of lines that even ZWJ did not learn (he didnt learn it because he didnt really want to right?). What are those lines? Wouldn't they make him even stronger?
    Its weird to compare martial arts like that. If Xiao Feng defeats Wu Brothers' YYZ with Ancestor Long Fist, does that mean Long Fist > YYZ? Clearly not. So even if someone knew QKDNY when Huang Shang fought them, it still doesnt show 9 Yin > QKDNY as the standard of Ming Cult unknown.

    Those lines in QKDNY ZWJ didn't learn were speculations by the creator and if ZWJ kept on going, he would've been in trouble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    Those lines in QKDNY ZWJ didn't learn were speculations by the creator and if ZWJ kept on going, he would've been in trouble.
    To elaborate, the creator of QKDNY did not master level 7, and thus the entire level 7 was purely conjecture and theory. As it so happened, the lines he didn't learn were parts that were wrong, and had he tried to force them, the result would have been fire deviation.

    In addition, the biggest reason why I think 9 Yang is not as well balanced as 9 Yin is that although it was very strong and had a powerful auto-protect, it repeatedly proved itself vulnerable to sharp, Yin-natured attacks, even from martial artists who have FAR inferior internal energy, such as the Persian Ming cult emissaries. 9 Yin, on the other hand, was never shown to be particularly weak or vulnerable to anything whatsoever.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 08-09-09 at 11:48 PM.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    I believe it was stated that the Taoist/Confucian/Buddhist guy who wrote 9 Yang didn't know/understand the internal energy parts in Sanskrit or something to that effect, and thought that 9 Yin was too 'Yin', and thus wrote 9 Yang to demonstrate that Yang is not inferior to Yin. Due to his lack of understanding w/regards to the internal energy sections of 9 Yin, he did not realize that 9 Yin was actually perfectly balanced; 9 Yang, however, is extremely Yang, unbalancedly so. In that regards, I would say 9 Yin > 9 Yang.


    Ok, after checking some old posts I want to summarize what we know about the origin of 9yang (I still hope that someone can post chapter 16 of HSDS 3rd edition in Chinese or/and English):

    (source: [COLOR=#800080]http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...t=11680&page=2[/COLOR]; posted by laviathan)
    “In the new edition, Zhang Wuji learns about Nine Yang's origins on the last page of the Lankavatara Sutra. It states that Wang Chongyang, after having obtained the Book of Nine Yin, travelled to Songshan one day and had a drinking contest with a certain guy. Wang Chongyang lost, and had to let the man read the entire Book of Nine Yin as a favour. This man used to be a Confucianist scholar in his youth and was exceptionally bright and educated. He later became a Taoist priest and acquired a vast amount of knowledge about Taoist principles and theories. But when he reached old age, he became a Buddhist monk for some unknown reason. When reading the Book of Nine Yin, the monk, with his superior intellect and knowledge, noticed that the Nine Yin martial arts were based on extreme Yin principles instead of a harmony between Yin and Yang. Realising that there must be "another way", he created the Art of Nine Yang and wrote the Book of Nine Yang inside the Sutra. This sutra somehow got into the Shaolin temple, so maybe the monk was a Shaolin member.”

    1. It was not said that this Taoist/Confucian/Buddhist guy could not understand Sanskrit.
    2. It is clearly said: 9yin is extremely yin.
    3. Because of the extreme yin principles this guy created 9yang.

    That 9yin is superior to 9yang because 9yin is neutral and 9yang not, is vague speculation. This idea only works if the 9yang creator didn’t understand the Sanskrit part (which makes the whole 9yin neutral). But this was not said. Actually there are hints that the creator could understand Sanskrit. It was stated in HSDS that the “Lengjia Jing” (Lankavatara Sutra) is written in Sanskrit. 9yang was written between the lines. Who in the world is writing something in a book which he cannot understand (especially between the lines and over 4 volumes!)? It is obviously that the creator wrote 9yang while reading the Lengjia Jing.
    I think the speculation that 9yin is neutral, is quite popular because many fans don’t see any extreme yin principles in Guo Jing’s or ZBT’s martial arts (exception is MCF, but she practiced 9yin wrongly).
    But I believe that it was Jin Yong intention to make 9yin equal to 9yang. None of both is stronger.
    Last edited by muidi; 08-10-09 at 08:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    In addition, the biggest reason why I think 9 Yang is not as well balanced as 9 Yin is that although it was very strong and had a powerful auto-protect, it repeatedly proved itself vulnerable to sharp, Yin-natured attacks, even from martial artists who have FAR inferior internal energy, such as the Persian Ming cult emissaries. 9 Yin, on the other hand, was never shown to be particularly weak or vulnerable to anything whatsoever.

    That is not quite fair because those 'sharp' yin based attacks could also be likened to bladed weapons (after all, the emissaries were carrying weapons, not bare handed). And we see how even Mr. HexXor Xu Zhu faired against a dagger when full powered JMZ blows were not hurting him.

    And yes, I agree with Muidi's post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    That is not quite fair because those 'sharp' yin based attacks could also be likened to bladed weapons (after all, the emissaries were carrying weapons, not bare handed). And we see how even Mr. HexXor Xu Zhu faired against a dagger when full powered JMZ blows were not hurting him.

    And yes, I agree with Muidi's post.
    CC, the comparison is totally fair:

    1) The Shenghuoling tablets the emissaries were holding were flat and blocky, not sharp,
    2) Zhang Wuji was wielding a weapon as well (the dragon sabre),
    3) The 'yin' based attacks were purely internal energy in nature, and were not accompanied with any physical attacks; the four of them were simply standing there, their weapons touching, while they clashed their internal energy against each other.

    Judge for yourself if 9 Yang seems 'balanced':

    By this time these four people had reached the stage where they were staking everything in this internal energy tug-of-war. Zhang Wuji thought that this internal energy duel was exactly what he was expecting, since his internal energy was a lot stronger.

    For a moment four people stood motionless with each one exerting his/her internal energy. Suddenly Zhang Wuji felt a shot of pain in his chest as if a very fine sharp needle was pricking his heart and lung. His grip loosened and the five Sheng Huo Ling pulled the Tulong Saber away [...]

    [...] Suddenly Zhang Wuji felt that pricking pain in his chest again. This time he had anticipated the attack, so that his grip on the precious saber was not loosened. These two attacks were tangible, he could feel it; but in reality they were formless attacks. A thread of cold air broke through his ‘jiu yang shen gong’ defense line, straight to his internal organs. He knew it was the Persian Three Emissaries’ cold ‘yin’ internal energy, concentrated into a singular point and entered his body via the Sheng Huo Ling.

    When a ‘yin’ type of energy attack a ‘yang’ one, it might not necessarily be able to penetrate the ‘jiu yang shen gong’ defense. However, his ‘jiu yang shen gong’ was protecting his whole body, while the ‘yin’ energy was concentrated like a thin silk thread, drilling through his defense system. It was difficult to guard against, as well as difficult to bear. For example, the elephant has great strength, yet even a woman or a small child will be able to prick its skin with a small embroidered needle. As the ‘yin’ energy entered the body, it would disperse immediately; but this prick could really cause the pain to enter the bones.

    Zhang Wuji realized that if this deadlock situation continued and while the enemy keep repeatedly sending this needle-like ‘yin’ energy attacks, he would not be able to hold on in the end [...]
    This is a clear vulnerability; 9 Yang is heavily Yang, which makes it vulnerable to a concentrated Yin attack, even one which is MUCH weaker. 9 Yang is repeatedly emphasized as being 'Yang' in nature; 9 Yin, on the opposite hand, has never demonstrated any vulnerability, nor has it ever been described as being 'extremely Yin' in either LOCH or ROCH, or even in HSDS, except for the alleged comment by the Taoist/Confucian/Buddhist, which is why his interpretation of it is so suspect.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 08-10-09 at 01:32 PM.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    This is a clear vulnerability; 9 Yang is heavily Yang, which makes it vulnerable to a concentrated Yin attack, even one which is MUCH weaker. .
    The thing is that no 9 Yin user was subject to a 'concentrated blade like Yin attack' either. It can be argued that by concentrating the energy into a small area, you effectively make your attack like a real blade (e.g. 6MSJ).
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    The thing is that no 9 Yin user was subject to a 'concentrated blade like Yin attack' either. It can be argued that by concentrating the energy into a small area, you effectively make your attack like a real blade (e.g. 6MSJ).
    But it was in an internal energy competition; it wasn't as though they were physically 'stabbing' or 'striking through the air' with it. If concentrating the energy into a small area works against all martial arts instead of just 9 Yang, why is it that in every other case where we see a weak martial artist engaged in an internal energy competition with a strong one, they are always crushed?

    For these people to be able to successfully use a 'concentrated Yin attack' against a much more powerful opponent who uses 9 Yang is a very strong indicator that this is a weakness of 9 Yang, otherwise anyone in an internal energy competition against a stronger foe should be able to do the same thing (and we never, ever see that).
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