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Thread: True Power of QKDNY

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    This is a clear vulnerability; 9 Yang is heavily Yang, which makes it vulnerable to a concentrated Yin attack, even one which is MUCH weaker. 9 Yang is repeatedly emphasized as being 'Yang' in nature; 9 Yin, on the opposite hand, has never demonstrated any vulnerability, nor has it ever been described as being 'extremely Yin' in either LOCH or ROCH, or even in HSDS, except for the alleged comment by the Taoist/Confucian/Buddhist, which is why his interpretation of it is so suspect.
    To ensure I understand your argumentation (correct me if I am wrong): U r saying that 9yang is weaker than 9yin, because it was never stated in LOCH/ROCH that 9yin is yin from nature. Additionally it is weaker because 9yang showed weaknesses when fighting with the 3 Persians whereas 9yin never showed any vulnerability.

    1. “it was never stated in LOCH/ROCH that 9yin is yin from nature”: Yes, you are right here. It was indeed never stated in Loch or Roch that 9yin is purely yin. But it was also never said that 9yin is neutral. But –as u said yourself- in HSDS it was clearly stated by the Taoist/Confucian/Buddhist that 9yin is purely yin. The argumentation that 9yin can be still neutral only works if the creator of 9yang didn’t understand the Sanskrit part. This is extremely unlikely. See my previous post.
    2. “Additionally it is weaker because 9yang showed weaknesses when fighting with the 3 Persians whereas 9yin never showed any vulnerability.”: First we never saw a pure yin vs. yang internal fight in ROCH/LOCH. So we don’t know how 9yin would perform. Second, it was three 3 people against one who were merging their internal energy to a minimum stream to fight ZWJ. Something this similar (merging of internal energy) was the seven star assembly of Quanzhen. We never saw GJ or ZBT fight the seven star assembly (XLN or YG never learned the internal part of 9yin). There is no evidence that 9yin (internal energy) would perform better than 9yang.
    I agree with PJ that ZWJ lost in the fight due to his inexperience rather than to 9yang.
    3. We can analyze the smallest detail of every fight where 9yang or 9yin was involved. But important is the intention of Jin Yong which is to make 9yang equal to 9yin.

  2. #62
    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
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    Is there any doubt that 9 Yang is clearly superior in internal cultivation considering ZWJ got to Great level internal in like 5 years with no substantial prior martial arts knowledge. Yes even shorter than the 16 years "wtf so fast?" Yang Guo.

  3. #63
    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    actually the 9yin zhenjing and 9yang shengong does not refer to the nature of the skill but is a name with deep meaning. the 'yin' in 9yin can refer to secrets/mysteries. while the 'yang' in 9yang can refer to illumination/knowledge. the inner power of both manuals is pure and balanced. it's just 9yin stars from the practice of yin that balances with yang as you progress, while 9yang starts from yang and balances with yin as you progress. ZSF who practiced 9yang only developed a unmatched pure inner power.
    when huang seng wrote his compendium of doaist knowledge, he had to study the doaist manuals carefully in order not to make any mistakes. he gained a knowledge of martial arts and inner power cultivation. the secret sanskrit part of 9yin zhenjing was probably from his first work and was the highest doaist inner power cultivation. later when he had to go into hiding in order to find a way to defeat his enemies, he studied their martial arts that he remembered and came up with ways to counter their moves. he came up with the skills he wrote in 9yin along side he had to create another set of inner power practice for the moves. this was because the moves went towards the yin nature(indirect/counter attacking). {e.g. ying gu's skills were of the yin nature, with few direct attacks and mostly counterattacks. HL18Z was of the yang nature, attacking directly.} the accompanying inner power was also yin in nature.
    there's a theory i like to put forth. WCY gave the 9yin manual to a highly intelligent monk who was versed in doaist theories. the monk finding the yin nature of the manual not to his ideal made an effort to correct it. (i said before the monk had high inner power but no martial arts knowledge, i take it back, there is no evidence he had practiced inner power before). also studying shaolin's inner that was of yang nature, he found a way to combine the nature of both, he created 9yang shengong and gained a high inner power. when he first read the 9yin manual, he may not have known sanskrit and only memorized the sanskrit portion like guo jing did. after many years in the shaolin library, he had learned sanskrit and realized the real 9yin was not flawed and actually equal to 9yang. he just did not understand the secret portion then. feeling his work was unnecessary, he wrote in the borders of Nijia Jing scripture, without telling anyone else of it's existence.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

  4. #64
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    Even if the Persian Ming cult emissaries only had 10% of ZWJ's inner power, the Bone-Penetrating Needle is clearly a force multiplier. Just like a blade concentrates force in time and space - i.e. the force of a swing is concentrated along the blade edge (space) and delivered in one blow (time).

    A clear analogy is focusing light from the sun using a magnifying glass onto a surface. Unfocused the light will just warm up the surface, but focused it will burn.

  5. #65
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by person135 View Post
    The 3 emissaries were able to fend of XX and Zhao Ming means that their martial arts can't be too far off. There's no way they are 5-10% of ZWJ's internal energy. Much higher.
    When Zhang Wuji saw the Persians subdue Jinhua Popo, he thought each of their martial arts was far below that of the Granny. It was only their strange techniques that caught her by surprise.

    It's established that Jinhua Popo, Xie Xun, Yin Tianzheng etc are each around 15% of Zhang Wuji's level. Basically, Zhang Wuji =~ 3 Du generation monks =~ 7 Yin Tianzheng's.

    If the Persians are far below the level of Jinhua Popo, that would indeed mean they're at the most 5% - 10% of Zhang Wuji's level.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    I don't know where you get these exact numbers from. You come up with these exact numbers for the values of their inner energy that don't make that much sense at all. Plus, that is what ZWJ THOUGHT. Obviously the emissaries' power is much higher if they were able to stalemate XX with the dragon sabre and Zhao Ming with the heaven sword.

    As for kyss's theory, Shaolin's kung fu isn't all yang. Yi Jing Jing is more yin than yang, and forms a big part of shaolin inner energy.

    I agree with muidi CFT and flamer.

    If indeed 9yang was weak against 9yin, how come ZWJ can beat Zhou Zhi Ruo's much more powerful and concentrated yin energy (compared to the emissaries)? ZWJ would not be able to beat her if his yang did not protect him against her fierce yin attacks.

    Jin Hua Popo learned most of her kung fu from Ming Cult, and so it wouldn't be a surprise if the emissaries knew how to counter her kung fu.
    Last edited by person135; 08-11-09 at 09:08 PM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by person135 View Post

    If indeed 9yang was weak against 9yin, how come ZWJ can beat Zhou Zhi Ruo's much more powerful and concentrated yin energy (compared to the emissaries)?.
    Bear in mind that Chow Chi Yerk was a very rudimentary-level 9 Yum Jen Ging user. Her level was closer to that of Mui Chiu Fung than that of Gwok Jing.

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    if by chow chi yerk you mean zhou zhi ruo (how does chow chi yerk = zhou zhi ruo?), she still is powerful. You have to note that even a person with no martial arts skill learning a top tier martial art will make them very powerful. There are countless examples of this.

    YTZ learned YJJ and became powerful enough to take on QF. DY learned 6MSJ and became powerful. GJ learned XL18Z and instantly became able to beat YK and match Ou Yang Ke. ZWJ learned 9yang.

    The same can be said for Zhou ZHi Ruo learning 9yin. Even though it was not the full version of 9Yin, GJ put in all the basics and then some, enough to make the person who learned it a good martial artist (technically, the person who learns what's in the heaven sword can take down the dragon sabre-made ruler, which requires good martial arts that the heaven sword provides).

    Rudimentary Zhou Zhi Ruo might be, she learned a top tier martial art and became powerful, just like DY, a rudimentary 6MSJ user was able to beat Mu Rong Fu and YTZ, a rudimentary YJJ user was able to fight QF for a bit.

    I'd say Zhou Zhi Ruo was above Mei Chao Feng, since Zhou Zhi Ruo had the martial arts as well as the inner power that goes along with it, while Mei Chao Feng only had the external martial arts. Mei Chao Feng wasn't as strong as she could be because she did not have the internal energy to back up her external techniques. Zhou Zhi Ruo had the internal energy required since GJ put internal energy practice techniques in that scroll too. Remember when ZWJ tried to heal Zhou Zhi Ruo on Snake Island after Zhou Zhi Ruo set them up? ZWJ detected a strong internal energy within her. She had the internal energy, which was what Mei Chao Feng lacked that made her external techniques weak. Therefore, ZHou Zhi Ruo was definitely above her level.
    Last edited by person135; 08-11-09 at 11:33 PM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by person135 View Post
    I don't know where you get these exact numbers from. You come up with these exact numbers for the values of their inner energy that don't make that much sense at all. Plus, that is what ZWJ THOUGHT. Obviously the emissaries' power is much higher if they were able to stalemate XX with the dragon sabre and Zhao Ming with the heaven sword.
    It wasn't as if Zhang Wuji just pulled it out of his a$$. When he watched the way they subdued Jinhua Popo, he saw that their internal energies were weak, and they had no great martial arts, it's just that their strange moves were hard to counter. There's nothing unbelievable going on here.

    It's a fact that Yin Tianzheng + Yang Xiao =~ Dunan, the weakest of the 3 Du-generation monks. The combined forces of 3 Du-generation monks, or roughly 3.5x Dunan, were roughly an equal to Zhang Wuji, which means 7x Yin Tianzheng (and by association: Xie Xun, Jinhua Popo, and Wei Yixiao) =~ Zhang Wuji.

    Xie Xun armed with Dragon Sabre (being blind) proved to be an equal to Jinhua Popo. So I don't see the big deal.

    Jin Hua Popo learned most of her kung fu from Ming Cult, and so it wouldn't be a surprise if the emissaries knew how to counter her kung fu.
    It was later explained that she concealed some of her martial arts on purpose. Yet it doesn't change the fact that the Persians' real abilities were revealed when they subdued her. It was plain to see that their internal energies were piss poor.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    lol your crazy associations.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by person135 View Post
    I'd say Zhou Zhi Ruo was above Mei Chao Feng, since Zhou Zhi Ruo had the martial arts as well as the inner power that goes along with it
    It was stated that at her peak, Zhou Zhiruo's internal energy level is still vastly inferior to that of Wudang Hero #6 Yin Liting.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by person135 View Post
    lol your crazy associations.
    Says the guy who "just based that on what i saw in the TV series," apparently.

    You're welcome to read the novel and find out for yourself (that I was right ).
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by person135 View Post
    if by chow chi yerk you mean zhou zhi ruo (how does chow chi yerk = zhou zhi ruo?), she still is powerful. You have to note that even a person with no martial arts skill learning a top tier martial art will make them very powerful. There are countless examples of this.
    Except for the instant power transfer afforded by DGSD's Bak Ming Sun Gung, it still takes time.

    With the complete 9 Yum Jen Ging, Gwok Jing needed the entire thirteen years between LOCH and ROCH to attain parity with the Greats. This is after one year of training with the manual brought him close enough to exchange a total of six-hundred strokes with two Greats at the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament.

    Cheung Mo Gei reached Greats-level inner power within five years using the 9 Yeung Jen Ging, but even he enjoyed special conditions that facilitated that: first, he was completely undisturbed during those five years...literally having nothing better to do than training inner power, day in and day out, every day for five years. Second, the plants and animals he consumed while inside that cave were also helpful to his inner power training. Third, Cheung Mo Gei improved his training by learning the Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee on top of the 9 Yeung Jen Ging. Fourth, that time he spent circulating his 9 Yeung inner power while trapped inside the Can't Say Monk's bag significantly hastened his inner power development. All these conditions enabled him to achieve inner power at the level of the ROCH Greats within five years.

    During the final battle at Shaolin, Chow Chi Yerk had been training in the 9 Yum Jen Ging for only around a year. Moreover, because she was in a hurry, she used the short cut method devised by Wong Yung. This short cut method gave the practitioner a quick boost of power and skill that can be used to fool the inexperienced, but ultimately isn't going to work against a true Greats-level fighter.

    As of the end of HSDS, Chow Chi Yerk's inner power and overall martial arts level was beneath that of the two eldest Mo Dong 7 Heroes, and she was exposed to the more observant and experienced eyes at the Shaolin battle when it was evident that she could not penetrate the inner power field generated by Cheung Mo Gei and the three Dao-generation elder monks. At best, she was at Mui Chiu Fung's level.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by person135 View Post
    if by chow chi yerk you mean zhou zhi ruo (how does chow chi yerk = zhou zhi ruo?)
    Cantonese.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Well I never said that she was at the level of the five greats. All I said was that she was above the normal user. She definitely was better than Mei Chao Feng, because Mei Chao Feng only had the external techniques, whereas Zhou ZHi Ruo not only had the external techniques, she also had the internal energy to go along with that, not to mention that the scroll GJ left behind had other useful stuff too. Therefore, she definitely was better than Mei Chao Feng.

    Yang Guo mastered the important concepts left in the tomb by WCY, and his internal energy was boosted quite a bit. Now of course, he needed more practice to get near the 5 greats' level, but with the basics that he learned from 9yin in the tomb, he reached a decent level of internal energy, and quickly too. The same can be said for Zhou Zhi Ruo.

    As you know, it gets progressively harder as you try to become more and more powerful. Take the SATs for example. Trying to improve your score from 1000 to 2000 is a very easy task. Going from 2000 to 2300 is much harder, and from 2300 to 2400 is even harder. Same for ZHou ZHi Ruo. Its easy for her to go from a low internal energy to a decent level, but to go even higher would obviously take longer. Therefore, it makes sense that her internal energy can rise quickly from a short time after studying such a powerful skill. That's my point. I never said she was at the level of the 5 greats or anything.

    But my point here is that, it doesn't matter how much internal energy Zhou Zhi Ruo had. Arguing about Zhou ZHi Ruo's internal energy levels is only digressing from the topic and a completely different argument. Why not defend the topic at hand before moving on to something else... Zhou Zhi Ruo's Yin attacks were stronger than those of the emissaries, and ZWJ was able to defend against those.


    Says the guy who "just based that on what i saw in the TV series," apparently.
    And for PJ, you are very quick to judge. You should think more carefully about what I said and when it applies.
    Last edited by person135; 08-12-09 at 12:58 AM.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by person135 View Post

    Yang Guo mastered the important concepts left in the tomb by WCY, and his internal energy was boosted quite a bit. Now of course, he needed more practice to get near the 5 greats' level, but with the basics that he learned from 9yin in the tomb, he reached a decent level of internal energy, and quickly too. ge. You should think more carefully about what I said and when it applies.
    The single most significant gain that Yeung Gor attained for his inner energy did not come out of the 9 Yum Jen Ging. In fact, 9 Yum Jen Ging had a negligible role in developing Yeung Gor's inner power (he was missing too much of it for it to be helpful to him). His quantum inner power boost came from consuming those snake organs that the Divine Condor provided to him and later, training with the Heavy Iron Sword. 9 Yum Jen Ging only played a small role in Yeung Gor's martial arts development.

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    and yet GJ sensed that YG's internal energy was on a remarkable level (this was when YG tried to secretly kill GJ, which was before YG ate the snake eggs)

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by person135 View Post
    and yet GJ sensed that YG's internal energy was on a remarkable level (this was when YG tried to secretly kill GJ, which was before YG ate the snake eggs)
    It was pretty good for a guy who wasn't even twenty years old yet, but to attain Greats-level, Yeung Gor would need a little more help (which he got).

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    and again, I'm not talking about greats level. I am saying that practicing 9yin for a short time increased his low internal energy level to a decent internal energy level, and the same happened for ZHou Zhi Ruo.

    I was never talking about the greats level. I never said either one of them were at greats level. U_U

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by person135 View Post
    and yet GJ sensed that YG's internal energy was on a remarkable level (this was when YG tried to secretly kill GJ, which was before YG ate the snake eggs)
    That was because he had quite a lot of years of Ancient Tomb inner power (which shouldn't be half bad) training combined with the Ice Bed. I don't think 9 Yin had much to do with it.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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