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Thread: 9 Yum White Bone Claws - Ming Cult origins unrecognized in HSDS?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default 9 Yum White Bone Claws - Ming Cult origins unrecognized in HSDS?

    Although the 9 Yum White Bone Claws were depicted as an integral component of the overall 9 Yum Jen Ging manual in the first and second editions of Jin Yong's CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY novels, by the third edition, the claw technique had become a martial art originating from the Ming Cult, included by Wong Seung in the 9 Yum Jen Ging only for archival purposes.

    If the 9 Yum White Bone Claws was originally a Ming Cult martial art, why didn't any Ming Cult members from the HSDS era recognize it as such when they witnessed Chow Chi Yerk using it? At the very least, I would think that Yeung Siu, who compiled a history of the Ming Cult, would have had some inkling as to what the technique really was and where it came from.

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    The Ming Cult is a sect rich with unique people and broad range of people and martial arts. Besides QKDNY, I don't even know if there's any sect specific kungfus (and the Persian Arts, but that's a variant of QKDNY anyway). The person who used the claws could easily have learned it from somewhere else, and thus it is not archived as anything related to Ming Cult, expect by chance that someone from there knows it.

    That, and the fact that from 9 Yin til HSDS, it's probably been a good 200 years give or take. Martial arts in jianghu seem lucky to be remembered past even the 100 year mark.

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    I think the only ones that were in DGSD that survived to HSDS is Xiang Long Shi Ba Zhang and Yi Yang Zhi.

    Both Greats level martial arts that nobody was able to excel in by HSDS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    If the 9 Yum White Bone Claws was originally a Ming Cult martial art, why didn't any Ming Cult members from the HSDS era recognize it as such when they witnessed Chow Chi Yerk using it? At the very least, I would think that Yeung Siu, who compiled a history of the Ming Cult, would have had some inkling as to what the technique really was and where it came from.
    Do keep in mind that the Ming Cult during the HSDS era was comprised of a whole new generation of martial artists , none of which was related to those from Huang Shang's time other than its exclusive premier QKDNY whom no one could master beyond a certain level other than its creator.
    Last edited by timeless; 09-23-09 at 04:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timeless View Post
    Do keep in mind that the Ming Cult during the HSDS era was comprised of a whole new generation of martial artists , none of which was related to those from Huang Shang's time other than its exclusive premier QKDNY whom no one could master beyond a certain level other than its creator.
    I would think that if the Ming Cult had once included a member who wielded as deadly and strange a martial art as what came to be known as the 9 Yum White Bone Claws, Yeung Siu's exhaustive history of the cult might have made at least passing reference to it.

    It'd be kind of hard to overlook a member who knew a martial art like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I would think that if the Ming Cult had once included a member who wielded as deadly and strange a martial art as what came to be known as the 9 Yum White Bone Claws, Yeung Siu's exhaustive history of the cult might have made at least passing reference to it.

    It'd be kind of hard to overlook a member who knew a martial art like that.

    Very penetrative threads, Ken. One possible explanation could be that there were simply far too many powerful martial arts for the archivist to know which is greater than which as the members were there for a common cause, and maybe the archiving was not taken seriously among the pugilist lot.

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    Probably JY forgot that 9 Yin White Bone Claws came from Ming Cult while he was writing Shaolin fight scenes of HSDS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I would think that if the Ming Cult had once included a member who wielded as deadly and strange a martial art as what came to be known as the 9 Yum White Bone Claws, Yeung Siu's exhaustive history of the cult might have made at least passing reference to it.

    It'd be kind of hard to overlook a member who knew a martial art like that.
    Would you think the Green Bat King or Eagle King, or any of the protectors or Left/Right Emissaries be remembered nearly 200 years later? Their martial arts respectively are probably no weaker than someone who practiced the claws. They are on par with Mei Chiaofeng for sure I imagine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Would you think the Green Bat King or Eagle King, or any of the protectors or Left/Right Emissaries be remembered nearly 200 years later? Their martial arts respectively are probably no weaker than someone who practiced the claws. They are on par with Mei Chiaofeng for sure I imagine.

    Lion King, Dragon King, all the principal notables were all not far from Greats level. One can only imagine just how good Lion King might be if he had not lost his sight as it was mentioned that he was a wee bit more promising than all of them during their younger days.

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    According to Zhou Botong, some of the Ming cultists that were killed by Huang Shang were originally from well-known 'good' schools of the Central Plain. It was fellow members from the schools of these dead cultists plus some 'helpers' from other schools that killed his family, and not the other cult members. Since Huang Shang devised 9 Yin as a way of taking revenge against those who slaughtered his family, it would stand to reason that the 9 Yin claws would not have been wielded by a member of the Ming cult at all. It is a bit odd that someone from a 'good' sect would use such martial arts though - maybe one of the 'helpers' was from a less-than-savory school.

    This always seemed to me to be a foreshadowing of one of the central themes of HSDS and SOD - the 'good' schools can be just as bad, if not worse, than the 'demonic' sect.

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    Now I'm confused. As of the third editions of the novels, is 9 Yum White Bone Claws definitively a technique developed by one of Wong Seung's enemies (possibly a Ming Cult member) and incorporated into the 9 Yum Jen Ging for archival purposes, or is it an actual 9-Yum technique that Wong Seung himself devised?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Now I'm confused. As of the third editions of the novels, is 9 Yum White Bone Claws definitively a technique developed by one of Wong Seung's enemies (possibly a Ming Cult member) and incorporated into the 9 Yum Jen Ging for archival purposes, or is it an actual 9-Yum technique that Wong Seung himself devised?
    According to the third edition, it is specifically one of the techniques that 9-yin was devised to counter.

    However, there seems to be a big contradiction in the third edition here:

    • When ZBT taught GJ the techniques from 9-yin, it said that he would only teach the 'good' techniques, and leave out the 'evil' techniques such as the white bone claws.
    • However, three paragraphs later, it has ZBT teaching the 'hardness-penetrating god claws' (in Cantonese, 'cui geen sun jau') to GJ, which was also in previous versions. This had the 'penetrate the enemy's head like rotten earth' passage in it, and ZBT commenting on how MCF misinterpreted this passage by taking it literally. The third edition also had an extra passage about it being included so that one can learn to counter it.
    • But then (as in the earlier additions) when GJ had his suspicions, ZBT turned his attention to 9-yin principles, reasoning that the techniques (i.e. the claws) would then follow naturally from the theory.

    This can be reconciled somewhat by making the white-bone claws and the god claws completely separate arts, but MCF was clearly using passages from the god claws in her white-bone claws. The god claws cannot be a 9-yin innovation, since it was there to be countered, but then why would ZBT feel that the techniques would follow from 9-yin principles?

    Frankly, I think that Jinyong simply messed up here while revising the story to make 9-yin a 'purely good' martial art, and wasn't careful enough to ensure that small local changes made sense in a wider context.

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    Didn't Mei Chaofeng kidnap a young Guo Jing to force Ma Yu to reveal true Quanzhen internal techniques to help complete her training in the claws?

    9 Yin and Quanzhen internal is quite similar, albeit 9 Yin is far more profound.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timeless View Post
    Do keep in mind that the Ming Cult during the HSDS era was comprised of a whole new generation of martial artists , none of which was related to those from Huang Shang's time other than its exclusive premier QKDNY whom no one could master beyond a certain level other than its creator.
    I don't think even the creator of QKDNY mastered all 7 levels. I'm don't remember where I heard this from though..

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    Quote Originally Posted by person135 View Post
    I don't think even the creator of QKDNY mastered all 7 levels. I'm don't remember where I heard this from though..
    Yeah, he didn't have enough internal energy to do so. So he vaguely wrote the formula to achieve 7 seventh level not out of experience.
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    th 9yin white bone claws were actual an orthodox skill based on Taoist principles, it gained a bad name because of the iron and copper corpse who practiced it wrongly. ZZR in HSDS and SQS followed a short method that was somewhat heretical. the actual skill is extremely powerful. likely the name 'white bone' has a taoist meaning. it's a killing skill however and so rather feared.

    The sacred sun and sacred moon
    Illuminate the Golden Court.
    One attainment is eternal attainment.

    The body will naturally become weightless.
    When the supreme harmony is replete,
    The bone fragments become like winter jade.

    Acquiring the Elixir results in immortality;
    Not acquiring it results in extinction.

    The Elixir is within yourself,
    It is not white and not green.

    Recite and hold ten thousand times.
    These are the subtle principles of self-illumination.

    The Jade Emperor's Mind Seal Classic. The Taoist Guide to Health, Longevity, and Immortality.
    that is a partial at translation. the lines, the bone becomes like winter jade and the line, the elixer is not white or green, it reminded me of the words 'white bone'. maybe white bone refers to the internal cultivation of qi required for the skill, that gives it ti's power.
    Last edited by kyss of the sword; 11-08-09 at 10:14 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    I think the only ones that were in DGSD that survived to HSDS is Xiang Long Shi Ba Zhang and Yi Yang Zhi.

    Both Greats level martial arts that nobody was able to excel in by HSDS.
    Who used Yi Yang Zhi in HSDS?

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodrick View Post
    Who used Yi Yang Zhi in HSDS?
    The Zhu and Wu families. The Wu family also had the orchid acupoint brushing technique.

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