What made Hong Lung 18 Palms a special, elite martial art?

[Aventinus]

Didn't say it was easy to pick up.
Just the effect was allwoing your to use your internal energy to the max.

[person135]

Song Qing Shu was able to learn it just like GJ was able to learn it. XL18Z is relatively easy to pick up. Not only that, but it possesses extreme external power using simple attacks. It is superficially simple, but has many nuances, which makes it such a powerful skill. If a newbie like GJ/Song Qing Shu learns it, they can get pretty powerful. But to become a real elite level, you'd have to master the skill fully using years of training to get internal that lets you use the martial art to its fullest extent.

[Dennis Chen]

Was it ever said what internal Hong Qi had?

Guo Jing was lucky. He was trained personally by one of the Quanzhen 7. Without that nightly training everynight for 2 years, he wouldn't have had such good internal. Guo Jing worked hard, but the Quanzhen 7 also put some time and effort into him.

[Ian Liew]

Was Xiexun's Seven Wounding Fists superior to that of Zhong Wenxia's and Tang Wenliang's, or were they equal? Was it because he had better internal energy, or he stole the book and deprived them of the full manual?

[Doc Kwok]

The way I see it, XL18Z probably has one of the largest output:input ratio among it's peers
(and of course, whatever H7G said about the 100% out 90% reserved stuff).

I think this is the key reason why XL18Z is so revered - it lets you deal a disproportionately large amount of damage for the amount of effort you put in. As H7G himself said, a technique which depended purely on brute strength could be learnt by anyone as long as they were strong, but that would hardly be worthy of praise from HYS. A technique which lets you use only 30% of your strength but achieve results greater than using conventional techniques with 100% strength is very impressive indeed!

As for the retention of power, that seems to be more for defensive purposes in that it gives you options in the event of a miss, rather than for a high power follow-up. The one time GJ tried a full power strike (against HYS at the Lu manor), he dislocated his wrist because HYS unexpectedly retracted his body at the last moment, resulting in the power coming to bear on his own body. Had he retained some power, he might have avoided that by fighting the power he put out with the power he held in reserve, but as it was, he had none left.

[dracnom]

yeah i guess sad palm doesn't get stronger after being more sadder or so, i was just assuming after watching rotch 06, yang guo destroyed all those cannons with ease i would think that required alot of force to counter all those cannons. also i actually like how in rotch 95 we actually get to see different variety of sad palm.

but yeah i guess dragon palms internal energy is so great since you had to had high level energy to learn, but how come song ching su in heaven sword was able to learn it? i mean he was like 20 didn't you need at least 40 plus years or so?

That incident at the end of ROCH with yang guo destroying the cannons never happened in the book. the sad palms had another characteristic, that being the moves were strange and somewhat unpredictable.

To my knowledge, song qing su never learnt the dragon palms, correct me if i'm wrong, according to the book, he did learn some basic 9 yin bai gu zhao. but if he was to learn the dragon palms, he could, but the feel and power of it won't be there.

[CC]

Was it ever said what internal Hong Qi had?

.

Never. H7G* used some nameless internal skill but the effect didn't seem any inferior to the Duan family or Quanzhen internal skills. Kind of like 2nd Edition Qiao Feng, the author didn't seem to see the need to describe the internal base.

*Was it the same for OYF? Did Hama Gong come with its own inner energy training or was it like Dragon Palms, only technique for releasing power, not cultivation. If so, then OYF's internal base was never named either.

[flamer]

I believe that Toad Stance cultivates internal energy, said sometime in beginning of ROCH with young YG.

[Candide]

By the 30%/70% mumbo jumbo, HQG meant to tell Guo Jing that while being a hard hitting palm technique, HL18Z teaches the practitioner maximum *control* of his power and timing for desired impact (either destroying the opponent, or pulling back in time).

[CC]

By the 30%/70% mumbo jumbo, HQG meant to tell Guo Jing that while being a hard hitting palm technique, HL18Z teaches the practitioner maximum *control* of his power and timing for desired impact (either destroying the opponent, or pulling back in time).

I don't think the 30/70 mumbo was mentioned in 3rd Edition LOCH. Only for 3rd Ed DGSD IIRC.

[Dennis Chen]

It was also special because there was never anything that was shown to be better. Hama Gong could equal it, but was never shown as better.

Wang Chongyang's martial arts was overshadowed by the 9 Yin.

Duan Zhixing's Yi Yang Zhi later became overshadowed by 6 Mai Shen Jian.

Huang Yaoshi's martial arts were also never shown to be bested by anything, that's probably why many people worship him and his kung fu. Except for the fact that even the book says that Tan Zhi Shen Tong is a finger skill 2nd to Yi Yang Zhi.

[person135]

I dont think frog attack can actually equal xl18z. I think it's just the amount of proficiency and power that OYF used it that made Frog attack seem as powerful as XL18Z.

[Dennis Chen]

Are you suggesting that Ouyang Feng was a greater martial artists genius than Hong Qi? That Hong Qi never fully mastered HL18Z?

[ChronoReverse]

I don't think the 30/70 mumbo was mentioned in 3rd Edition LOCH. Only for 3rd Ed DGSD IIRC.

This seems similar:

Qi-Gong rolled his eyes. "What else can it be? Doesn't that go without saying? You've been practicing so long that sweat is dripping down your face, yet you just only understood this simple principle? You're really stupid. This stance is called the Proud Dragon Repents. Its essence lies not in the word 'Proud' but in the word 'Repents'. If it only focuses on projecting brute strength, then anyone with some muscle will be able to execute this. Why does Huang Yao Shi admire this stance? 'The proud dragon repents, but not for long'. Therefore, with projection must come collection. If you project 10 degrees of your power, be sure to have 20 degrees remaining within your body. The day that you grasp the essence of 'repent', you will have mastered 30% of this stance. Just like fine and mature wine, it does not sting at first taste but the aftertaste is extremely overwhelming, thus demonstrating the meaning of 'repent'. "

In any case, the real reason for withholding power from the strike itself is the previous paragraph:

"Silly boy, why are you shaking the tree? Trying to catch squirrels? Or trying to drop pinecones?" scolded Qi-Gong impatiently. Guo Jing went red in the face and smiled sheepishly. Qi-Gong continued, "I've told you this before: you must force your opponent into a position of no retreat. The power in your strike was not weak, but when the pine tree shook, it dispelled much of the power. You must first learn how to hit a tree without making it move, and then you can learn how to break a tree with one stance."

Therefore, if you strike with 100 units of power, only a small amount is inflicted as damage and the rest wasted. With internal energy, however, it becomes possible to utilize it to force the target to take the full brunt of your power. Perhaps the optimal balance of damage and control is the 1:2 ratio or 33% to 66% which is pretty close to 30/70.

This is a pretty common concept actually (maximizing strike damage) but that's usually how JY's martial arts tend to be. That is, the elite martial arts are based on a theory that actually pretty mundane but taken to a high degree (e.g., redirection of force, the concept of "mu", soft overcoming hard, etc.)

[timeless]

Are you suggesting that Ouyang Feng was a greater martial artists genius than Hong Qi?

In a sort of way, Hys & OYf were more of a martial arts genius than say, Dzx or H7 because (you do the maths*) someone like H7g was bestowed a top martial arts that would already put him on a Greats level whether he wants to or not.

My personal ranking in terms of martial arts ingenuity(before 9yinzj exposure):

1. Hys- do i even need to say why.
2. Oys -external style expert boosted by internal boosting power & adroit use of poisons that could stand up to the sheer power of Xl18z- why i placed him below Hys.

2. Dzx-A family skill elevated to the highest level by sheer hard work and personal sacrifices and of course that overpowering ego to be no.1 just like Oys.
3.H7g- already touched on.

* Those of you good in mathemathical configurations can put it into a sort of rough conjectural percentages comparison.

A rough example would be something like this -eg. case of Oys vs H7g as to why they even up squarely if we would try to contravene the very idea that everything -internal & external are equal, which is theoretically unlikely which calls for a logical suspension of this 'everything being exactly equal' theorem:

H7g= 70 % generated raw power output+ 20% external dexterity + 10% stamina

Oys= 50% generated power output >additional 10% power boosted +30% external dexterity+10% execution of poisons/trickery

As mentioned, this is just a rough opinionated configured way of trying to make sense of the possible disparities between the Greats in how they could always stay even. With what i have seen here, i believed most of you can come up with better models. Though this does not mean that there is a substantial disparity in their internal power which is more or less quite on par.

Maths* I remembered reading some very interesting stuff from CC, Chronoreverse and some others on how they actually apply mathematical theorems on Jy martial arts. So i think taking this approach would be a more apt way of talking the language here.

[CC]

Maths* I remembered reading some very interesting stuff from CC, Chronoreverse and some others on how they actually apply mathematical theorems on Jy martial arts. So i think taking this approach would be a more apt way of talking the language here.

Not me! I really hate to use formulas and theories to put numbers and rankings on fighting ability. This is because I feel that for a work of literature, the plot, the author's intention and how he gets that intention across to the reader trumps everything else.


The ONLY exception is when there are HARD FACTS. e.g. JY _stated_ that Xu Zhu while utilising only 10% of his power, can throw a LDA palm with force exceeding 10 times his own bodyweight at running speed. With that, we can use e=0.5mv2 and an approximate adult body weight and running speed to derive kinetic energy values.

[timeless]

Not me! I really hate to use formulas and theories to put numbers and rankings on fighting ability. This is because I feel that for a work of literature, the plot, the author's intention and how he gets that intention across to the reader trumps everything else.


The ONLY exception is when there are HARD FACTS. e.g. JY _stated_ that Xu Zhu while utilising only 10% of his power, can throw a LDA palm with force exceeding 10 times his own bodyweight at running speed. With that, we can use e=0.5mv2 and an approximate adult body weight and running speed to derive kinetic energy values.

Something like that.

[Dennis Chen]

Hong Qi=martial arts genius

Ouyang Feng=martial arts geninus

Hong Qi=Ouyang Feng.

[ChronoReverse]

Maths* I remembered reading some very interesting stuff from CC, Chronoreverse and some others on how they actually apply mathematical theorems on Jy martial arts. So i think taking this approach would be a more apt way of talking the language here.

Erm, I've usually tried to show how absurd it is to try to apply direct mathematical "proofs" to the martial arts. It's kinda funny how you singled out me and CC when both of us are among the least likely to take something like A=B and B=C therefore A must equal C as a proof in itself. They're good for ballpark comparisons but hardly definitive in themselves.



In any case, martial arts "genius" is way too vague to be something that could be quantified like that. Even between editions of novels it fluctuates for instance (e.g., H7G recreating XL18P in the earlier edition).

Furthermore, being able to take an existing martial far requires genius in itself as the martial arts as transmitted is incomplete nonetheless and requires the practitioner to fill it out and take it to the utmost level.

[Dennis Chen]

Being a creator of a martial art doesn't mean you're a great martial artist. Qian Kun Da Noi Yi creator never mastered his own art. It's an open question as to the martial arts level of the person who created 9 Yang; though Jin Yong seems to stress his knowledge of the Dao, Buddhism and other philosophies more than anything else.