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Thread: What made Hong Lung 18 Palms a special, elite martial art?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default What made Hong Lung 18 Palms a special, elite martial art?

    Hong Lung 18 Palms is one of the most famous (arguably *the* most famous) martial art featured in Jin Yong's novels. It is the signature martial art of two of Jin Yong's most popular and accomplished protagonists, Kiu Fung and Gwok Jing, as well as that of one of the original generation of Greats of the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY, North Beggar Hung 7 Gung.

    But other than its association with great heroes and warriors, what is it that makes Hong Lung 18 Palms special as a martial art? The common perception of Hong Lung 18 Palms is that it is a fairly straightforward, simple style that enables wielders to hit very, very, very hard. But there is no shortage of martial arts in Jin Yong stories that also hit very, very, very hard...Ha Mo Gung, Iron Sand Palm, Heavy Iron Sword Technique, Lung Jeung Bor Yeh Gung, Sad Palms, and 7 Seung Fists are just a few other techniques that also hit very, very hard, and each of those has distinct, unique characteristics that define it beyond merely being hard-hitting.

    So is there anything other than its tremendous impact (not exactly a unique, distinguishing feature) and its association with certain popular characters that makes Hong Lung 18 Palms special?

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    HL18Z was an amazing martial art. But it didn't make a person a Great level martial artist. The Original Greats are great not because they had great martial arts but because they were martial arts geniuses.

    Guo Jing needed an elite martial art like 9 Yin to become a Great. Yang Guo needed an elite martial art like HIS (and snake gall bladders) to become a Great. Zhang Wuji needed an elite martial art like 9 Yang to become a Great.

    Hard work is a common denominator amongst all of them.

    However, would GJ, YG or ZWJ have become Greats with only HL18Z+Quanzhen internal, Quanzhen+Jade Maiden internal and sword skills or only Wudang martial arts+7 injury fists? I have my doubts.
    Last edited by Dennis Chen; 09-22-09 at 04:48 PM.

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    Maybe because it was the Yangyest of the hard hitters?

    Hardest hitting of the hard hitters?

    Baseball bats hit hard, so do Mack trucks.

    Iron Sand Palm always left me with the impression of a smack, or a really hard hitting with a board, or something, while 18 Palms penetrated hit you deep.

    That's just me.

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    i think h7g said that you had to had alot of internal energy to learn the dragon palms, then once learning it its the most strongest hard yang technique or so. then when yang guo developed his palms, huang yao shi said it was equal to the dragon palms in strength, but yang guos palm the more sadder you are the stronger it gets which the dragon palm has nothing after that.

    so i think its basically the technique you had to have alot of internal energy then it probably like doubles it in form of dragon which is why its so powerful. remeber in heaven sword 03, zzr husband learn some of it and basically he was able to kill that begger dude i guess was strong at least since he defeated some sect masters easily.

    link
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm2C-...eature=related

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mido-Ban View Post
    i think h7g said that you had to had alot of internal energy to learn the dragon palms, then once learning it its the most strongest hard yang technique or so. then when yang guo developed his palms, huang yao shi said it was equal to the dragon palms in strength, but yang guos palm the more sadder you are the stronger it gets which the dragon palm has nothing after that.
    It's been said a lot, especially lately, but we'll repeat it again until this myth is dispelled:

    Yeung Gor's Sad Palm is *not* some infinite font of strength. There is Sad Palms when Yeung Gor feels sad, which is 100% strength, and then there is Sad Palms when Yeung Gor isn't feeling sad, which is somewhat less than 100% strength. Being sad doesn't suddenly make Sad Palms 200%, 500%, or 1,000% stronger. It just doesn't work that way.

    Like Hong Lung 18 Palms, Sad Palms is driven and limited by the amount of inner power that the user has to bring into it. If Yeung Gor is using Sad Palms against a hypothetical Hong Lung 18 Palms user with ten times his inner power, being sad isn't going to help Yeung Gor make up that tenfold deficit.

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Hong Lung 18 Palms is one of the most famous (arguably *the* most famous) martial art featured in Jin Yong's novels. It is the signature martial art of two of Jin Yong's most popular and accomplished protagonists, Kiu Fung and Gwok Jing, as well as that of one of the original generation of Greats of the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY, North Beggar Hung 7 Gung.

    But other than its association with great heroes and warriors, what is it that makes Hong Lung 18 Palms special as a martial art? The common perception of Hong Lung 18 Palms is that it is a fairly straightforward, simple style that enables wielders to hit very, very, very hard. But there is no shortage of martial arts in Jin Yong stories that also hit very, very, very hard...Ha Mo Gung, Iron Sand Palm, Heavy Iron Sword Technique, Lung Jeung Bor Yeh Gung, Sad Palms, and 7 Seung Fists are just a few other techniques that also hit very, very hard, and each of those has distinct, unique characteristics that define it beyond merely being hard-hitting.

    So is there anything other than its tremendous impact (not exactly a unique, distinguishing feature) and its association with certain popular characters that makes Hong Lung 18 Palms special?
    Hitting VERY VERY HARD is a broad description. Hitting 2 times as hard is very very hard, but so is hitting 10X as hard. The way I see it, XL18Z probably has one of the largest output:input ratio among it's peers
    (and of course, whatever H7G said about the 100% out 90% reserved stuff).

    However, there is quite some flaw is you want to compare it to certain other arts (ie. Toad Stance, Sad Palms, Iron Palms, etc) because there is not evidence that XL18Z is "more special" than those other skills.

    If you are speaking in regards of it's special-ness to wuxia fans, then I would agree that the likely cause is because of the characters who used them. Not only did two main characters use them, but both used it in very dominating fashions. XF, whom I don't need to go into detail with, and GJ going from a nobody to being able to hold off MCF (don't forget that he blasted a guy away the first time he used it). On TV, it's always portrayed as if one was firing a bazooka, so I suppose people liked ideas/visuals the same way people love to watch dunks.

    Plus, LOCH is probably Jin Yong's first major hit and the television series is probably one of the most well known wuxia series of all time. It's not surprising that people would be familiar with the name.
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 09-22-09 at 10:48 PM.

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    Yes, to reemphasize, Sad Palms does NOT scale to sadness! IE, it does not grow stronger the sadder one is; rather, it is the opposite; when one is happy, the palmset grows weaker.
    Read the latest chapters of Coiling Dragon at Wuxia World!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    However, there is quite some flaw is you want to compare it to certain other arts (ie. Toad Stance, Sad Palms, Iron Palms, etc) because there is not evidence that XL18Z is "more special" than those other skills.
    It isn't, but those other elite skills had defining characteristics beyond just being hard-hitting. Does Hong Lung 18 Palms have any defining characteristics beyond just being hard-hitting?

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    It isn't, but those other elite skills had defining characteristics beyond just being hard-hitting. Does Hong Lung 18 Palms have any defining characteristics beyond just being hard-hitting?
    what characteristics did the Heavy Iron Sword & Iron Sand Palms have? Or even 7 Shang Fists (I don't think self-injury is quite the defining characteristic you're looking for, is it?)
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 09-22-09 at 11:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    what characteristics did the Heavy Iron Sword & Iron Sand Palms have? Or even 7 Shang Fists (I don't think self-injury is quite the defining characteristic you're looking for, is it?)
    Well....to be fair, HIS technique is a sword technique with a blunt sword that relies on crushing damage and overwhelming power (pretty unique for a sword technique), Iron Sand Palms were said to be more complicated in technique than XL18Z and is trained by building up energy via striking bags filled with iron pellet (pretty unique), and 7SQ is pretty unique in that it apparently attacks the opponent using seven different 'wavelengths' of internal energy at once.

    I do agree though; the external techniques of Dragon Palm seem to be nothing special, but the internal component to the techniques allow enormous power to be generated...
    Read the latest chapters of Coiling Dragon at Wuxia World!

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    I think JY must have asked himself this very same question sometime after the 2nd editions because in the 3rd edition DGSD, he came up with some mumbo-jumbo by having Xiao Feng describe the Dragon Palms as 'always holding 70% in reserve'.

    I call it Mumbo Jumbo because :

    1. Are you using only 30% but hitting for 100% damage?

    2. Why can't you use 100% and hit for 330% damage then? (If so, we are back to square one since Toad Stance, Sad Palms, Dragon Elephant Skill seems to hit just as hard.)

    3. Are you restricted to using only 30%? Why?

    I agree with Dennis on this. Dragon Palms is elite but no more elite than say Toad Stance or Sad Palms. Its just the cool name and heroes using it which makes it stand out.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    I agree with Dennis on this. Dragon Palms is elite but no more elite than say Toad Stance or Sad Palms. Its just the cool name and heroes using it which makes it stand out.
    I don't think there's any contention that Hong Lung 18 Palms is *more* elite than those other skills, but since those other skills have other distinguishing features other than just being hard-hitting while Hong Lung 18 Palms is known *only* for being hard-hitting, how can Hong Lung 18 Palms maintain its place as one of the elite skills...especially the chosen skill of heroes of heroes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I don't think there's any contention that Hong Lung 18 Palms is *more* elite than those other skills, but since those other skills have other distinguishing features other than just being hard-hitting while Hong Lung 18 Palms is known *only* for being hard-hitting, how can Hong Lung 18 Palms maintain its place as one of the elite skills...especially the chosen skill of heroes of heroes?
    we've already answered, ken. it's among the hard hittingest of the hard hitting

    it's also got good power control, i suppose
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 09-23-09 at 02:22 PM.

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    The 18 palms is like the heirloom of the beggar clan right? Maybe it's just up there with the rest.

    But the more you practice it, the better you get at it. So they've already invested the time to master a kamehameha type attack, there's no reason to start learning a new one unless it was magnitudes better because the time you've invested makes it more formidable than something you have to start a new.

    I'm basing the idea that it gets stronger as you practice it, because I think I heard somewhere that Xiao Feng's 18 palms is at a level that even Guo Jing can't compare with.

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    I would argue that the whole 70% in reserve thing refers to being able to strike with your full power without having to commit your full power to a blow at first.

    For example in most cases when someone wishes to use their whole power they must be committed to it at the start and cannot back off in the middle. For example when you swing a baseball bat, if you want to hit a ball hard, you cannot start meaning to hit it lightly and then suddenly change your mind and hit it hard. You have to commit to it from the beginning of the swing.

    Perhaps the power of XL18Z is in that you can throw out palms with 30% of your power, which is efficient and easy to sustain, and you can add the other 70% in at will when you need to. With a normal palm technique either you are using 30% of your power and therefore cannot hit as hard, or you are using 100% of your power and therefore waste alot when you miss.
    Reverend Rongku prepared himself.

    Suddenly, he toss his hands and screamed: "I am not human! I am an animal!"

    The crowd startled at such a bizarre beginning to the story.

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    I think the skill is just one of those skills where if you just learn it, you become already semi-elite, and with more and more practice, you get up there or near the elites because it's so efficient and powerful.

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    yeah i guess sad palm doesn't get stronger after being more sadder or so, i was just assuming after watching rotch 06, yang guo destroyed all those cannons with ease i would think that required alot of force to counter all those cannons. also i actually like how in rotch 95 we actually get to see different variety of sad palm.

    but yeah i guess dragon palms internal energy is so great since you had to had high level energy to learn, but how come song ching su in heaven sword was able to learn it? i mean he was like 20 didn't you need at least 40 plus years or so?

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    What made Hong Lung 18 Palms a special, elite martial art?
    The question is not what, but who.

    The answer: Jin Yong.

    More specifically, Jin Yong's beloved main characters who employed XL18Z to crush their opponents.

    ARTS.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Maybe HL18 is special because it is so simple.
    It doesn't have special characterteristics, it doesn't reduce with happyness..it doesn't do any of that.

    It's straight forwarf, wahck you into next week. That's why it's special...no non-sense...


    As for teh 70% thing...hmm....maybe it like you hit as hard as 100% of what your inner strength will allow, but only exerting feeling like only 30% of it......but that cath is such that you can't exert more than that. Like if you put in 40% of your strength it does nothing more....it gives you a ton more leverage.....you don't have to exert yourself as much...

    External skill, in addition to technqiue, speed and change up...is about expressing your inner strength into outer force...some are more efficient than others.......and how you cultivate your inner strength determines about it most easily expressed...thus why so many martial arts have inner and external parts......they couple well together..HL18 is purehaps one of the easiest and most efficinet conversion....open the flood gates if you will...



    I don't know

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aventinus View Post
    ..HL18 is purehaps one of the easiest and most efficinet conversion....open the flood gates if you will...

    I don't know

    If it was easy to pick up, it won't be considered a top martial arts together with the 6msj. According to the writings, it was only passed down from one beggar leader to another provided these and those they want to passed down to are people of upright character with the highest integrity. There is a physical requirement though, the person must have a strong physique so as to be able to undergo the rigours of the power building.

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