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Thread: This is China- a land of pollution.

  1. #41
    Senior Member jiang bao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    The problem is not vehicle but big vehicles. If consumers are willing to drive smaller cars instead of big SUV, then consumption of oil would be greatly reduced.
    Well, fuel efficiency can delay the inevitable a bit, but the bigger problem is that more and more people will be driving cars. (Just take a look at the growth numbers in China alone) More cars mean not only more gas consumption, but it also takes more steel and other materials. (Guess why China is importing a record amount of iron ore and copper this year) We are talking about a finite amount of global resources to meet an indefinitely growing global demand.

    That’s why I think the technology cop out (i.e. in the future technology will magically be the answer to everything) is a disservice to the future of mankind. It’s the kind of sand-in-the-head, “so far so good” attitude that’s gonna ensure the end of civilization as we know it sooner rather than later.
    What are you fighting for? Just mix them into pissing beef balls, stupid.
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  2. #42
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiang bao View Post
    Well, fuel efficiency can delay the inevitable a bit, but the bigger problem is that more and more people will be driving cars. (Just take a look at the growth numbers in China alone) More cars mean not only more gas consumption, but it also takes more steel and other materials. (Guess why China is importing a record amount of iron ore and copper this year) We are talking about a finite amount of global resources to meet an indefinitely growing global demand.

    That’s why I think the technology cop out (i.e. in the future technology will magically be the answer to everything) is a disservice to the future of mankind. It’s the kind of sand-in-the-head, “so far so good” attitude that’s gonna ensure the end of civilization as we know it sooner rather than later.
    Sure, but what's the viable alternative? It's not realistic to expect that we can persuade hundreds of millions of people (likely more) to live like it's the Middle Ages.

    We've got to come up with a better plan than that, because *that's* sure not going to work.

    I think it's going to come down to this:

    $this->handle_bbcode_img_match('http://www.huge-entity.com/images2/space-colony-3.jpg')

    But if that's the case, we'd better hurry up, because we've got a thousand-page book to write and we've barely got the first word down.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Trinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Sure, but what's the viable alternative? It's not realistic to expect that we can persuade hundreds of millions of people (likely more) to live like it's the Middle Ages.

    We've got to come up with a better plan than that, because *that's* sure not going to work.

    I think it's going to come down to this:

    $this->handle_bbcode_img_match('http://www.huge-entity.com/images2/space-colony-3.jpg')

    But if that's the case, we'd better hurry up, because we've got a thousand-page book to write and we've barely got the first word down.
    Hm... I wonder if we will ever live like the Jetsons???
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  4. #44
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinie View Post
    Hm... I wonder if we will ever live like the Jetsons???
    Some people in Seattle, Las Vegas, and Calgary already do (well, they DINE like the Jetsons, anyway).

    When I was a kid, I fully expected that by the year 2010, we'd be driving flying cars and living in space colonies on Mars. We're not even *close* to that, but as a kid, I never imagined the Internet (although some of the stuff they were doing on sci-fi shows of the period such as KNIGHT RIDER already sort of pointed the way that some everyday technologies would go).

  5. #45
    Senior Member jiang bao's Avatar
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    Ken, I’ve stated what I believe is the only long-term solution (to at least the energy problem) already, and it is renewal energy. My concern is that we, the world, isn’t doing enough to build the infrastructure we will need when oil really does become in short supply—i.e. we lack the foresight to take sufficient steps to address this problem.

    As for the materials shortage, I have no idea what we can do about it. According to the US Geological Survey, we could run out of silver by 2020. I guess we’ll start melting silver coins… lol

    As you can see, we have some posters who believe (as I suspect a majority of people do) that there’s nothing to worry about, that “technology” will somehow take care of everything. If we don’t solve this problem, we may end up living like the Middle Ages anyway, not voluntarily of course.
    What are you fighting for? Just mix them into pissing beef balls, stupid.
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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patricia n View Post
    the goverment is mostly to blame but also mass consumers in the developed countries cannot be overlooked. i need to avoid buying products made in china or else i would be supporting the situation.
    boycott only works if the government is doing absolutely nothing (which in this case, is untrue. They just happened to realize the need after it's too late). With the current situation, China has actually been trying to take a forefront effort into environmental friendly technology (it knows that it desperately needs it). In that case, buying products-->stimulate economy-->increased revenue-->increased funding for environmental technology research. Of course, it always comes down to a double edged blade: using resources to find a way to save resources. It comes down to which side of the balance beam is heavier.

    that aside, the resource for product consumed will always have to come from somewhere. if not china, then some other nation or the US itself. at this point, depletely natural resources really isn't a matter of individual countries anymore. The only way to go about helping the environment is to entirely boycott the product itself, not where it comes from.

    so folks, save your resources! dont' let the drain run, recycle when possble, etc etc...

  7. #47
    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiang bao View Post
    I’ve said this earlier, but again, the problem is that technology isn’t just going to happen. For example, how is solar cells going to magically reach 60% conversion efficiency when the highest conversion efficiency’s in the teens right now? The most affordable ones, made by First Solar, are more like 10%. Execution problems with infrastructure, energy, materials, time, etc. I’ve mentioned above aren’t just going to disappear.

    To be clear, my point is that the progress in technology is not enough to make material difference. It's not going to increase the amount of oil in the ground. The only longterm solution is alternative energy, but for the reasons I've listed before, we need to start early and commit to it. Or by the time when people relying on magic technology realize that technology has limits and we need alternative energies on a huge scale, it'd be too late.
    Surely, 20 years ago, if I said I can get power from the Sun, people would be like "what are you talking about, how are you going to do that". The same goes for many MANY technologies, nuclear (very high conversion rates compared to burning fossil fuels), flight, space exploration etc etc...

    I do not do that research and innovation but I'm sure you'd agree the world is much more committed to alternative resources now. Both development and usage.

  8. #48
    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiang bao View Post
    Ken, I’ve stated what I believe is the only long-term solution (to at least the energy problem) already, and it is renewal energy. My concern is that we, the world, isn’t doing enough to build the infrastructure we will need when oil really does become in short supply—i.e. we lack the foresight to take sufficient steps to address this problem.
    The problem is, the price of fossil fuels will not *jump* to a level above renewable energy suddenly and then everyone goes "yep now is the time to do renewable energy, let's build those cells, dams, wind generators etc". The price is going to rise steadily and with every little rise, resources will be diverted away from fuel and into infrastructure, development and usage of alternative resources. By the time prices of fossil fuels tipped the prices of other resources, the world will not be building its infrastructure then, it would already be well equipped years before that. The world may not even feel the pinch when the price tips, but they will have to cope the problems rising fuel prices cause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    The problem is not vehicle but big vehicles. If consumers are willing to drive smaller cars instead of big SUV, then consumption of oil would be greatly reduced.
    Dude. That is only delaying the inevitable problem. That might give you an extra what, 10-20 years?

    The problem is not how much we use. The problem is that we're running out of what we use. We either find something else to use. Or we find alot more of it somewhere else.

    We've always been driven by excess, and excess is what helps us develop rapidly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    Yes, they have every right to modernize their society, but they should do it the right way. That is growth their economy responsibly. I don't think anyone is blaming china for modernize their society, but they should do it the right way. They should build infrustructures that are needed and clean their environment.



    It is still a long way to go for their gdp to climb to 10,000.



    Contrary to many people here, I agree that one child policy is a good thing.



    Nah, no doubt that the US is consuming more than average but they deserve it. They work for it. Gotta go now, will write more.
    It's all easy to blame China for all their pollution, but it's actually insanely complicated that there's no real solution for it as off now unless you wanna put all the production on a hold which would let's face it, hurt other countries even more than China.

    As long as there's demand, China will deliver, simple as that. You really think the billion factories are there for Chinese citzen's use? Fancy laowai like to complain about the pollution and labor rights in China, yet they happily wear their fancy Nike's that says 'made in China', while they happily sit in their 'made in china' furniture. Double standards much?

    The amount of foreign industry in China is at an all time high, you wanna complain about pollution then foreign companies should ****ing stop establishing in China and screw up China's living standards even more. But I guess that's impossible right, whenever your own countries personal gain is on the line, other so called morals just have to take a sideline, it's what capitalism is all about, profit at the expense of others no?

    Also the hell is wrong with you about US deserving to consume more? They work for it? If you mean they industrialized way before China and have a huge lead so they can now abuse foreign and third world countries to do their dirty jobs so their wives can stay home and drink martini's all day long while the husbands can go out and take a spin in their SUV's then yes, I wholeheartedly agree.

    One child policy is decent, if you live anywhere but in China. Maybe you have forgotten about the thousands baby girls that got murdered/thrown away/left to rot simply because bastard number 1 desperately wanted a baby boy. Or perhaps the million babies that were ditched on the roadside because their parents couldn't afford to pay the fine? One of my dads friends actually accompanied his father to bring her little new born sister to a family in some rural place I can't even recall the name all the while he was asking why they had to get rid of her cute newly gained sister with the father having no words but I'm sure plenty of tears that would have spoken for him.

    I've actually been lurking for ages around these forums usually without having the urge to post and it seems that it's usually YOU that comes with these really weird *** arguments of yours. Then again maybe I'm the idiot. Mighty mods don't ban me for expressing my opinion yarr?

  11. #51
    Senior Member jiang bao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    The problem is, the price of fossil fuels will not *jump* to a level above renewable energy suddenly and then everyone goes "yep now is the time to do renewable energy, let's build those cells, dams, wind generators etc". The price is going to rise steadily and with every little rise, resources will be diverted away from fuel and into infrastructure, development and usage of alternative resources. By the time prices of fossil fuels tipped the prices of other resources, the world will not be building its infrastructure then, it would already be well equipped years before that. The world may not even feel the pinch when the price tips, but they will have to cope the problems rising fuel prices cause.
    Here's the price of oil, charted:
    http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm

    Looks like plenty of volatility to me in recent years. In two or three years time, I think we might pass that record high we reached in 2008.

    We are just going around in circles at this point, but it really does take a huge amount of energy, time, and materials (all of which are all counted as cost) to develop enough renewable energy infrastructure to make a difference.
    In regards to what you said about who would have thought we could get power from the Sun a few decades ago, actually people have looked at the Sun as a potential source of power for a long time, it’s just that the technology would be crazy expensive. But guess what jump started solar power research seriously? The OPEC oil crisis.

    Yes, we’ve gone from 0 solar power generation to roughly 10 to 15% solar conversion efficiency on average such then, but you have to keep in mind that we started from 0. How much higher can you go? You do not just keep going up and up until you reach 100.

    I'm not going to continue this anymore unless there are other points brought up. I guess only time will tell if my concerns are correct or too dire.
    What are you fighting for? Just mix them into pissing beef balls, stupid.
    SOD Pt. 7 updated Jan. 6, '08

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  12. #52
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    As I said, volatility but if it's an upward trend, the market will sense it.

    Why can't solar power be more efficient? Discovery of new materials, new arrangements, nanotechnology and more. It is hardly inconceivable that energy generation can only get more efficient than stop where it is.

    You're right, only time can tell. However, I think you are a little too pessimistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiang Yu View Post
    It's all easy to blame China for all their pollution, but it's actually insanely complicated that there's no real solution for it as off now unless you wanna put all the production on a hold which would let's face it, hurt other countries even more than China.
    I don't think anyone can claim the problem is simple. You are right, it's complicated but china can do much better than that. Allowing companies to discharge all the harmful pollutant into rivers and lakes is not good for the country. Yes, it encourage growth but it does way more harm than good. In addition, much of the sewage is discharged into river and lake without and treatment. With all the surplus money, china should be in much better situation environmentally.

    As long as there's demand, China will deliver, simple as that. You really think the billion factories are there for Chinese citzen's use? Fancy laowai like to complain about the pollution and labor rights in China, yet they happily wear their fancy Nike's that says 'made in China', while they happily sit in their 'made in china' furniture. Double standards much?
    Sure, there are double standard. People from the west are not saint. Foreign companies' objective is to make money, not to help china nor the chinese people. They will do whatever they can to minimize the expense and maximize their profit. If dumping harmful pollutants into lakes and rivers can save them a few dollars, they would do it. They don't give a shit about the well being of the chinese people whatsoever. Did you watch the documentary "The corporation"?

    The amount of foreign industry in China is at an all time high, you wanna complain about pollution then foreign companies should ****ing stop establishing in China and screw up China's living standards even more. But I guess that's impossible right, whenever your own countries personal gain is on the line, other so called morals just have to take a sideline, it's what capitalism is all about, profit at the expense of others no?
    Again, building the economy is important and china has every right to do it, but they should do it responsibly. They should enforce their environmental law so that all companies will behave the way they should like the west. Yes, you are right that capitalism is not saint. They will do whatever to minimize their expense and maximize their profit. That is what capitalism all about. Do you know why they do not dump their pollutant into rivers and lakes in the west but they do it in china?? It is because the consequences of doing it is too big for them to take. On the other hand, if they do it in china and got caught, the penalty is pretty low, lower than treating the pollutant. Again, it's up to china to enforce their law and building infrustructure to treat her pollution. China has trillion of dollars to spend but if she prefer to leave the money in foreign reserve and US bond thn she deserves to suffer.

    Also the hell is wrong with you about US deserving to consume more? They work for it? If you mean they industrialized way before China and have a huge lead so they can now abuse foreign and third world countries to do their dirty jobs so their wives can stay home and drink martini's all day long while the husbands can go out and take a spin in their SUV's then yes, I wholeheartedly agree.
    Money is not falling out of the sky, people earn it from hard work. By the way, I agree that the US should be more fiscally responsible. She should not keep borrowing money from foreign countries.

    One child policy is decent, if you live anywhere but in China. Maybe you have forgotten about the thousands baby girls that got murdered/thrown away/left to rot simply because bastard number 1 desperately wanted a baby boy. Or perhaps the million babies that were ditched on the roadside because their parents couldn't afford to pay the fine? One of my dads friends actually accompanied his father to bring her little new born sister to a family in some rural place I can't even recall the name all the while he was asking why they had to get rid of her cute newly gained sister with the father having no words but I'm sure plenty of tears that would have spoken for him.
    I think Guo Xiang already answer this question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guo Xiang View Post
    That is not really the policy's problem, it is the society's problem. The people brought it upon themselves. I don't feel sorry for them lacking girls.
    Without one child policy, china's population would be a few hundred million higher which lead to more poverty.

    I've actually been lurking for ages around these forums usually without having the urge to post and it seems that it's usually YOU that comes with these really weird *** arguments of yours. Then again maybe I'm the idiot. Mighty mods don't ban me for expressing my opinion yarr?
    You have every right to disagree with me, but you should not use profanity.

  14. #54
    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post


    I think Guo Xiang already answer this question.
    What I said only pertains to the bolded parts in Xiang Yu's argument:

    One child policy is decent, if you live anywhere but in China. Maybe you have forgotten about the thousands baby girls that got murdered/thrown away/left to rot simply because bastard number 1 desperately wanted a baby boy. Or perhaps the million babies that were ditched on the roadside because their parents couldn't afford to pay the fine? One of my dads friends actually accompanied his father to bring her little new born sister to a family in some rural place I can't even recall the name all the while he was asking why they had to get rid of her cute newly gained sister with the father having no words but I'm sure plenty of tears that would have spoken for him.
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    Senior Member Trinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiang Yu View Post
    It's all easy to blame China for all their pollution, but it's actually insanely complicated that there's no real solution for it as off now unless you wanna put all the production on a hold which would let's face it, hurt other countries even more than China.

    As long as there's demand, China will deliver, simple as that. You really think the billion factories are there for Chinese citzen's use? Fancy laowai like to complain about the pollution and labor rights in China, yet they happily wear their fancy Nike's that says 'made in China', while they happily sit in their 'made in china' furniture. Double standards much?

    The amount of foreign industry in China is at an all time high, you wanna complain about pollution then foreign companies should ****ing stop establishing in China and screw up China's living standards even more. But I guess that's impossible right, whenever your own countries personal gain is on the line, other so called morals just have to take a sideline, it's what capitalism is all about, profit at the expense of others no?

    Also the hell is wrong with you about US deserving to consume more? They work for it? If you mean they industrialized way before China and have a huge lead so they can now abuse foreign and third world countries to do their dirty jobs so their wives can stay home and drink martini's all day long while the husbands can go out and take a spin in their SUV's then yes, I wholeheartedly agree.

    One child policy is decent, if you live anywhere but in China. Maybe you have forgotten about the thousands baby girls that got murdered/thrown away/left to rot simply because bastard number 1 desperately wanted a baby boy. Or perhaps the million babies that were ditched on the roadside because their parents couldn't afford to pay the fine? One of my dads friends actually accompanied his father to bring her little new born sister to a family in some rural place I can't even recall the name all the while he was asking why they had to get rid of her cute newly gained sister with the father having no words but I'm sure plenty of tears that would have spoken for him.

    I've actually been lurking for ages around these forums usually without having the urge to post and it seems that it's usually YOU that comes with these really weird *** arguments of yours. Then again maybe I'm the idiot. Mighty mods don't ban me for expressing my opinion yarr?
    You made some really good points that I really agree with and I totally agree about the one child policy. I mean, I think it is sad that ancient old folks still favor boys over girls(my parents are like that even though I am the only girl with 7 boys). I remember how bad it became at one point when baby girls were killed, abandoned,etc.... It was so sad but I agree with GX about it being more the people themselves then the actual policy. There is good and bad to everything but TC made it seem like the one child policy only had good affects and no bad ones at all.
    Last edited by Trinie; 11-10-09 at 11:12 PM.
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  16. #56
    Senior Member Trinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guo Xiang View Post
    That is not really the policy's problem, it is the society's problem. The people brought it upon themselves. I don't feel sorry for them lacking girls.
    Yea, I totally agree with you...I guess if they did not favor boys over girls then they would not have this problem. I feel sad to say that my parents are like that as well, but luckily that policy did not affect us(we have 8-9 kids in our family and I am the only girl). If it did, then I think I would not even be alive right now....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinie View Post
    There is good and bad to everything but TC made it seem like the one child policy only had good affects and no bad ones at all.
    I never claimed that ONE CHILD POLICY (OCP) is perfect because it's not, but that is the best alternative for China. Good thing is that the government has modified it's policy. Couple who are both the only child can have up to two children and wealthy people can have more than one child by paying penalty. What I dislike about the policy is the double standard. It only apply to the han, but not the minority. It's so unfair if not out right racist against the han. Without OCP, china population would not be around 1.33 billion but a few hundred million higher. According to the chinese government, OCP has prevented more than 400 million births since, a population that is larger than US's. Without OCP, china will never able to rise up. Most of the people will live in deep poverty. For people who are against the OCP, can you come up with the better alternative?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    I never claimed that ONE CHILD POLICY (OCP) is perfect because it's not, but that is the best alternative for China. Good thing is that the government has modified it's policy. Couple who are both the only child can have up to two children and wealthy people can have more than one child by paying penalty. What I dislike about the policy is the double standard. It only apply to the han, but not the minority. It's so unfair if not out right racist against the han. Without OCP, china population would not be around 1.33 billion but a few hundred million higher. According to the chinese government, OCP has prevented more than 400 million births since, a population that is larger than US's. Without OCP, china will never able to rise up. Most of the people will live in deep poverty. For people who are against the OCP, can you come up with the better alternative?
    The minorities is a very touchy issue.
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    What are you fighting for? Just mix them into pissing beef balls, stupid.
    SOD Pt. 7 updated Jan. 6, '08

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guo Xiang View Post
    The minorities is a very touchy issue.
    Agree, but unfair is unfair.

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