Malaysian churches fire-bombed as 'Allah' row escalates

[Guo Xiang]

All is not lost though. I'm happy to read this. Now that's the spirit of goodwill and harmony.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp...629&sec=nation

Muslim NGOs offer help to protect churches
Monday, 11 January 2010 00:33 |

KUALA LUMPUR: Muslim non-governmental groups have come forward to offer their help in preventing further attacks on churches.

Volunteers from the groups will work alongside Rela members to be on the lookout for suspicious characters near churches and alert the authorities if they see something amiss.

The groups — from 130 Muslim NGOs — will concentrate their efforts in Kuala Lumpur and Selangor before expanding to other states with the help of more Muslim NGOs.

Muslim Consumers Association Malaysia executive secretary Datuk Nadzim Johan said yesterday that volunteers would drive by churches within their areas twice a day to look out for suspicious characters.

“It’s important for these people to know that they are being watched.”

“We wouldn’t want our Christian brothers to be in danger. This is an offer of peace and goodwill,” he said.

Selangor Rela director Brigadier Khairi Mohd Alwee said his 70,000 men would do their best to provide security.

Uhh... didn't I already posted this in post#11 here?

[kidd]

Uhh... didn't I already posted this in post#11 here?

Oops. Sorry. I didn't read the quote because I thought you were replying to someone. I just read what you wrote.

[bella25]

The term has been used in Sabah and Sarawak for over 400 years to refer to God in Malay. What does this Muslim friend of yours has to say about this? It's not only recently they use. It's been used for hundred of years before Sabah and Sarawak join Malaya to form Malaysia and now Home Minister suddenly said cannot use because it will 'undermine national security'.

Like someone said here
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/i...lam-leslie-lau



Historically, Malaya wanted Sabah and Sawarak to join Malaya to form Malaysia to gain the advantage in numbers. Now, they are taking away their right to practice what has been with their culture for centuries.

Maybe your friend should travel to Indonesia or maybe visit East Malaysia to understand the culture of his fellow Malaysians more. It's ironic that Indonesia (who also has cases of church burning and at one time even ethnic cleansing) can tolerate this while tolerant Malaysia cannot.

http://hornbill-hornbill.blogspot.co...indonesia.html




Someone write a long article about why it's not so easy to substitute 'Allah' with 'Tuhan'.

http://www.mysinchew.com/node/33523?tid=14

I didn't do much talking, he was agitated and furious.

When people talk about more harmonious times in the old days, most of them are probably like me, if it bugs your neighbours/friends etc... and it does not hurt you not doing it, then don't do it or do it among your friends. My 60 year old neighbour told me that's what he and his friends ( all ethnic groups) did when he worked in Kuala Kangsar ( Northern part). With some Muslims, he would drink beer but with a few others, he'd order something else. Likewise with Hindus, he'd eat chicken not beef. So my opinion still stands. He said that he even made sympathetic noises when Protestants bad mouthed Roman Catholics.

But burning churches or any place of worship, now that is totally barbaric..

Just out of curiosity, don't Roman Catholics pray to the Virgin Mary more often than to Jesus Christ?

[kidd]

I didn't do much talking, he was agitated and furious.

When people talk about more harmonious times in the old days, most of them are probably like me, if it bugs your neighbours/friends etc... and it does not hurt you not doing it, then don't do it or do it among your friends. My 60 year old neighbour told me that's what he and his friends ( all ethnic groups) did when he worked in Kuala Kangsar ( Northern part). With some Muslims, he would drink beer but with a few others, he'd order something else. Likewise with Hindus, he'd eat chicken not beef. So my opinion still stands. He said that he even made sympathetic noises when Protestants bad mouthed Roman Catholics.

But burning churches or any place of worship, now that is totally barbaric..

Just out of curiosity, don't Roman Catholics pray to the Virgin Mary more often than to Jesus Christ?

I don't know much about Roman Catholics to confirm whether they pray to Virgin Mary more or Jesus. Either way, Jesus still in their Bible.

Secondly, how do you know not doing it doesn't hurt the Roman Catholic Church who went to court fight for it? How do you know using that word is not important to them? They have been using this word for ages among themselves. It's the Home Ministry who barge in and forbade them to use it. Who is bugging who first? Why should tolerance only go one way?

[Lucre]

Just out of curiosity, don't Roman Catholics pray to the Virgin Mary more often than to Jesus Christ?

A very common misconception, but no, catholics to not worship Mother Mary, and Jesus, together with the two other roles in the trinity, is the basis of worship.

However, Catholics do recognised the various lifes of saints who lead extraordinary lives and we look up to them as role model. Mother Mary, she being chosen as the one who bore Jesus, was obviously a very special person. There are many devotions dedicated to her, but it does not equate worshipping her, nor do we consider her as deity.

If you ever attend a eucharistic celebration (aka mass) you will see that the entire focus is on Jesus Christ, and Mother Mary was not even mentioned.

She, alongside with all the other angels and saints, are part of the catholic community.

[remember_Cedric]

A very common misconception, but no, catholics to not worship Mother Mary, and Jesus, together with the two other roles in the trinity, is the basis of worship.

However, Catholics do recognised the various lifes of saints who lead extraordinary lives and we look up to them as role model. Mother Mary, she being chosen as the one who bore Jesus, was obviously a very special person. There are many devotions dedicated to her, but it does not equate worshipping her, nor do we consider her as deity.

If you ever attend a eucharistic celebration (aka mass) you will see that the entire focus is on Jesus Christ, and Mother Mary was not even mentioned.

She, alongside with all the other angels and saints, are part of the catholic community.

Thanks for sharing, Luc-y! I've gained a better idea of Catholism.

[Lucre]

Thanks for sharing, Luc-y! I've gained a better idea of Catholism.

gosh, im not sure if i ilke being called Luc-y (it sounded too much like a poodle's name)

but ur welcomed.

[bella25]

A very common misconception, but no, catholics to not worship Mother Mary, and Jesus, together with the two other roles in the trinity, is the basis of worship.

However, Catholics do recognised the various lifes of saints who lead extraordinary lives and we look up to them as role model. Mother Mary, she being chosen as the one who bore Jesus, was obviously a very special person. There are many devotions dedicated to her, but it does not equate worshipping her, nor do we consider her as deity.

If you ever attend a eucharistic celebration (aka mass) you will see that the entire focus is on Jesus Christ, and Mother Mary was not even mentioned.

She, alongside with all the other angels and saints, are part of the catholic community.

Now it's clearer. Must be because a Roman catholic woman I knew liked to start many sentences with 'Mary mother of god' phrase.

[bella25]

I don't know much about Roman Catholics to confirm whether they pray to Virgin Mary more or Jesus. Either way, Jesus still in their Bible.

Secondly, how do you know not doing it doesn't hurt the Roman Catholic Church who went to court fight for it? How do you know using that word is not important to them? They have been using this word for ages among themselves. It's the Home Ministry who barge in and forbade them to use it. Who is bugging who first? Why should tolerance only go one way?

What's this, who's first who's second eh?
I have checked a history book, Sabah was part of the Sulu kingdom (muslim) before the British colonised it (they brought Christianity) and Sarawak was part of the Brunei (muslim) before Brooks became their Rajah.

From what I've read Christians form 6% of Malaysians and Muslims form 60%, that's enough strength in a democracy.

How do you know using that word is not important to them? There are hundreds of millions of Roman Catholics and how many of them use Allah? I don't know why the Roman Catholics want to go to court, but it's everybody's right to do so. Not that I know much about Malaysian law. I have met Malaysian Christians who don't care for the name, they use Jesus Christ even in Chinese. May be they didn't write to the papers, and so giving the impression that all Malaysian Christians prefer it.

[kidd]

What's this, who's first who's second eh?
I have checked a history book, Sabah was part of the Sulu kingdom (muslim) before the British colonised it (they brought Christianity) and Sarawak was part of the Brunei (muslim) before Brooks became their Rajah.

From what I've read Christians form 6% of Malaysians and Muslims form 60%, that's enough strength in a democracy.

How do you know using that word is not important to them? There are hundreds of millions of Roman Catholics and how many of them use Allah? I don't know why the Roman Catholics want to go to court, but it's everybody's right to do so. Not that I know much about Malaysian law. I have met Malaysian Christians who don't care for the name, they use Jesus Christ even in Chinese. May be they didn't write to the papers, and so giving the impression that all Malaysian Christians prefer it.

Uh, how many of these hundreds of millions of Roman Catholics you talk about actually read a Malay bible or converse in Malay?

I never said all Malaysian Christians prefer it. I don't think anyone in their right mind who actually lives in Malaysia and knows the Malaysian situation will have this idea.

Secondly, you only talk to a few Malays in KL and you made the conclusion that all Malay Muslims are against it and anger over it when there are Muslims in this country who are ok with it (like that few Malaysian Christians you talk to who most probably aren't native Malays speaker).

And why do you always interchange Jesus with God? Allah = God. Why do you keep on talking about Jesus Christ when that is not even the issue?

About the whose first who second. I was talking about this word having been used 400 years and before Sabah and Sarawak join Malaysia. No one said anything about it. No one has made a big deal of it, until the Home Minister come in an do all the banning. Yes, it's still the Home Minister who start the bugging first in THIS particular situation.

[athlee]

I just can't resist joining in the fun. To bella25, if you want to talk about whose first (although I think kidd was referring to who started the whole thing), then I respectfully point you to the fact that before Islam came to being, Allah was the word the Arabs use to refer to god, be it Christians at that time or otherwise.

Oh yea, I am Malaysian, but neither Christian or Muslim. Most of the people I know were not even interested in the case when it first surfaced. Even now, the Malays that I know are angrier at the people who started the so-called protest and violence.

P.S. a Sikh temple was also slightly damaged when about 20 stones were thrown at the temple yesterday/this morning, can't remember the time. The reason apparently is because they had also applied to be a party in the suit since they also use the word Allah in their prayer.

kidd: to be fair, I think it was Syed Hamid the previous Home Ministry who started the matter. The version I heard was that it was to shore up his position inside his party prior to their elections.

[Lucre]

From reading the posts, I thought to have some input here,

I'm not a Malay, and I admit I do not know this language well enough to make my debate convincing. A muslim friend of mine explained that Allah is an arabic word that meant God. Note that RCC's believed only in one God, so there can only be "the God" and not 'a god' ~ there might be other words that conveyed the meaning of 'deity' or 'gods' but that would not fully conveyed the meaning of a Christian God.

Jesus Christ is the name of the second identity of Trinity, which is known as God the Son. The name of God was revealed as YHWH (later on became Yahweh to make it say-able) but the name would not be mentioned and God is often referred to as God, Lord, or Father. Therefore, it is not an issue of using a name for worship, but merely using the word "God" (with a capital G) to translate the script in order to fully convey the meaning. I cannot say with certainty if this is the best way to translate, but at least I think it comes from this angle.

Just a question, how many other religion uses the word g-o-d in english translation to illustrate deity in their faith? you heard people said things like "the hindu gods, the taoist gods."

Going by this reasoning, shouldnt the Christian church decide G-O-D is merely for Christianity and bomb the rest of the religion away for using this three-lettered-word?

[athlee]

From reading the posts, I thought to have some input here,

I'm not a Malay, and I admit I do not know this language well enough to make my debate convincing. A muslim friend of mine explained that Allah is an arabic word that meant God. Note that RCC's believed only in one God, so there can only be "the God" and not 'a god' ~ there might be other words that conveyed the meaning of 'deity' or 'gods' but that would not fully conveyed the meaning of a Christian God.

Jesus Christ is the name of the second identity of Trinity, which is known as God the Son. The name of God was revealed as YHWH (later on became Yahweh to make it say-able) but the name would not be mentioned and God is often referred to as God, Lord, or Father. Therefore, it is not an issue of using a name for worship, but merely using the word "God" (with a capital G) to translate the script in order to fully convey the meaning. I cannot say with certainty if this is the best way to translate, but at least I think it comes from this angle.

Just a question, how many other religion uses the word g-o-d in english translation to illustrate deity in their faith? you heard people said things like "the hindu gods, the taoist gods."

Going by this reasoning, shouldnt the Christian church decide G-O-D is merely for Christianity and bomb the rest of the religion away for using this three-lettered-word?

Absolutely not. God is a generic name and should not be copyrighted. However, the Christian church can look up the name of their god in the bible (original language, can't remember if it is Hebrew or Latin or something else all together) and then copyright that immediately. The Jews should also look up the Old Testament (Hebrew???) and do the same. Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Wican, Taoism, Baha'ism, Sikh, Paganism, Animalism and Satanism (plus whatever else I missed) should also do the same.

Especially Satanism, for years the word Satan and Devil has been used as an insult, this must stop completely!!!

[kidd]

(although I think kidd was referring to who started the whole thing)

Yes, that's exactly what I'm referring to.

kidd: to be fair, I think it was Syed Hamid the previous Home Ministry who started the matter. The version I heard was that it was to shore up his position inside his party prior to their elections.

Sorry to Mr.Hishammuddin then.

I guess he has an obligation now to follow up the case (by appealing against the verdict) until there's no more appeal to be done.

But he did say stupid stuff like this

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp...494&sec=nation

“So far the attacks have involved stone throwing and arson attempts. There is no serious damage,” said the Home Minister, referring to the latest report on the surveillance on places of worship.

Absolutely not. God is a generic name and should not be copyrighted. However, the Christian church can look up the name of their god in the bible (original language, can't remember if it is Hebrew or Latin or something else all together) and then copyright that immediately. The Jews should also look up the Old Testament (Hebrew???) and do the same. Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Wican, Taoism, Baha'ism, Sikh, Paganism, Animalism and Satanism (plus whatever else I missed) should also do the same.

Especially Satanism, for years the word Satan and Devil has been used as an insult, this must stop completely!!!

Haha, that will be funny. Siva (TM), Buddha (TM), Guan Yin (TM), Satan (TM).

[athlee]

kidd, what else do you expect from Hishamuddin after the Cow Head protests?

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/i...ead-protestors

and the U-turn 2 days later

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp...576&sec=nation

oh yea, and that is Lord Satan (TM) to you

[Guo Xiang]

kidd, what else do you expect from Hishamuddin after the Cow Head protests?

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/i...ead-protestors

and the U-turn 2 days later

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp...576&sec=nation

oh yea, and that is Lord Satan (TM) to you

Lord Satan? Darth Satan? Sounds good.

[bella25]

Uh, how many of these hundreds of millions of Roman Catholics you talk about actually read a Malay bible or converse in Malay?

I never said all Malaysian Christians prefer it. I don't think anyone in their right mind who actually lives in Malaysia and knows the Malaysian situation will have this idea.

Secondly, you only talk to a few Malays in KL and you made the conclusion that all Malay Muslims are against it and anger over it when there are Muslims in this country who are ok with it (like that few Malaysian Christians you talk to who most probably aren't native Malays speaker).

Ok I stand corrected, they are Chinese and speak poor malay by their own admission. But surely with the Muslim youth movement (ABIM, I believe) being against it, that is already substantial. Aren't they the intelligensia of malaysian muslims? My Muslim friend told me that letters to malay newspapers are overwhelmingly against it.

why do you always interchange Jesus with God? Allah = God. Why do you keep on talking about Jesus Christ when that is not even the issue?

of course it's the same, The holy trinity as Lucre pointed out is the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. My old college principle always prayed at our formal dinners to 'Our Lord Jesus Christ', or our Father Jesus Christ, of course it's the same issue. I may not know many Malay Christians but I have eaten at many Christian dinners- Church of England but still Christian.

About the whose first who second. I was talking about this word having been used 400 years and before Sabah and Sarawak join Malaysia. No one said anything about it. No one has made a big deal of it, until the Home Minister come in an do all the banning. Yes, it's still the Home Minister who start the bugging first in THIS particular situation.

Ok this home minister stuff is too advanced for me. I'll have to get back to this forum after my next trip to KL.

[Lucre]

Athlee: Absolutely not. God is a generic name and should not be copyrighted. However, the Christian church can look up the name of their god in the bible (original language, can't remember if it is Hebrew or Latin or something else all together) and then copyright that immediately. The Jews should also look up the Old Testament (Hebrew???) and do the same. Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Wican, Taoism, Baha'ism, Sikh, Paganism, Animalism and Satanism (plus whatever else I missed) should also do the same.

Just because there are more English speakers than Arabic, does that mean only words in Arabic can be copyrighted, whilst the English equivalent is a generic name that should not be copyrighted?

The name of God was supplied in my previous post: YHWH, though it was not spoken during worship.

bella25: of course it's the same, The holy trinity as Lucre pointed out is the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. My old college principle always prayed at our formal dinners to 'Our Lord Jesus Christ', or our Father Jesus Christ, of course it's the same issue. I may not know many Malay Christians but I have eaten at many Christian dinners- Church of England but still Christian.

God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are the same being but they are different identities, and should not be viewed the same. It's like, you called you father "dad", your grandfather calls him "son", your mother calls him "husband". Each identity symbolises a different role, and hence when we speak of God as the Father, he called him Father, and not Jesus, same goes with the two other identities of the Trinity. In this sense, you wouldn't call your dad "son", nor your grandfather call him "husband" nor your mother call him "dad".

During worship, he is still rightfully, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and we do not go around substituting all the words "God" with the name "Jesus".

Note that I spoke from the RCC point of view as I'm not very familiar with what the other non-catholic churches teaches.

[yittz]

God is a generic term as well as God refered in the Christian and Jewish faith. Greek gods, egyptian gods etc.

What is the Arabic term for god? It's allah isn't it?

Always the extremist making the religion look bad for the rest of the followers, and then they get paranoid about people joining the christian faith. I smell politics too. Democracy should mean every citizen if fairly represented, not the majority and the loudest shutting the minorities up.

[athlee]

bella25: There are NO Malay Christian and any suggestions to that effect will be greeted with a witch hunt and uproar by idiots like ABIM. Under the M'sian Constitution, a Malay is defined as Muslim (there's more, but the relevant part would be that they are Muslim).

I know plenty of professional educated Malays who want absolutely nothing to do with ABIM. If I recall, all the top tier of ABIM are in the thirties or forties, that's youth for you in Malaysian politics. They are conservative (I call it racism, but that's for you to decide) and confrontational, and generally you only hear about them on issues like, 'the Malay language is under attack by traitors', 'those immigrants want to take away our rights and privileges', 'Stop the entry of the Israeli players', etc. etc. There are some good that they do, but generally, the tone of their activities are as above.

My personal opinion is that the split between races was a product of the Old Horse's policies and actions (Ex-PM Mahathir). But I am going off topic.