Would Great level fighters benefit from QKDNY ?

[tape]

It seems that QKDNY benefited ZWJ specifically because he happened to have a huge internal base but not much technique or method to utilize it.

All other Greats have their own methods to utilize their inner strength to the extreme, and that's what makes them Greats. XL18Z on a fundamental level is just using your inner strength more efficient than any other palm technique and blowing through with raw power (due to your superior usage of internal strength).

So my question is if someone like Guo Jing were to learn it, would he necessarily benefit much from it? He already has unlocked his inner strength so to speak, and clearly can deliver it extremely effectively through 9 Yin and XL18Z. Xiao Feng has shown us you don't need no QKDNY or Shifting Stars to redirect forces and merge them. Considering the other Greats are likely not much worse than Guo Jing/Xiao Feng, they likely also have extremely efficient methods to use their energy though it is not explicitly stated.

QKDNY is also stated to be an inferior kungfu and not on par with the greatest of the Central Plains techniques.

[Dirt]

It would benefit Jue Yuan. Other than that, I doubt it. It seems to me to be more of an enabler (God in the Machine really) to get a person to a high level in skill so long as they have the internal for it. A Great can already do many of the things QKDNY can do; learn martial arts quickly, see through to weaknesses, etc.

[AnhHung]

They wouldnt get as much of a boost internal wise like ZWJ did. But the QKDNY is much more than that. The aspect of diverting force and technique is unique. The Greats would definitely benefit from that. It would also help them identify flaw and help them to learn quickly.

But the best part is that it turned ZWJ into a Great in such a young age and without tutelage.

[tape]

How does having QKDNY help you identify flaws and imitate techniques? That seemed more of a byproduct of having 9 Yang (immense inner strength really) than QKDNY.

[PJ]

How does having QKDNY help you identify flaws and imitate techniques?

It was said that Qiankun Danuoyi can create flaws in your opponent's move even if it doesn't have any flaws. For instance:

龙爪手三十六式抓法，其本身虽无破绽可寻，但乾坤大挪移法却能在对方拳招中造成破绽

[ChronoReverse]

Is that the part where it was talking about ZWJ seeing flaws in the otherwise "flawless" techniques of two fighters? And then going on with the example of a tiger versus bear (or some other land animal) where an observing falcon would wonder why they didn't just swoop from above?

[PJ]

That was when he fought Reverend Kongxing, and it said the technique of Dragon Claw does not have any inherent weakness, but Qiankun Danuoyi could create weakness into it.

[tape]

Isn't that what Greats do in their mind anyway? QKDNY is not very special if it is a lower level technique than the better Central Plains ones. When OYF and H7G were creating counter techniques to Dog Beating Stick etc they are creating weaknesses in an art that inherently does not have flaws. Dog Beating Stick I assume doesn't have any inherent weaknesses. It's not like QKDNY suddenly turns your mind into a martial arts expert -- it just makes you (presumably) faster and stronger and jump higher than anyone so you now can take advantage of weaknesses that are not really there.

Which basically means any advanced inner strength technique coupled with superior lightness skill technique technically lets you create weakness out of anything.

[PJ]

Isn't that what Greats do in their mind anyway? QKDNY is not very special if it is a lower level technique than the better Central Plains ones. When OYF and H7G were creating counter techniques to Dog Beating Stick etc they are creating weaknesses in an art that inherently does not have flaws. Dog Beating Stick I assume doesn't have any inherent weaknesses. It's not like QKDNY suddenly turns your mind into a martial arts expert -- it just makes you (presumably) faster and stronger and jump higher than anyone so you now can take advantage of weaknesses that are not really there.

Yeah, I think that's basically what it is.

Which basically means any advanced inner strength technique coupled with superior lightness skill technique technically lets you create weakness out of anything.

I pretty much agree. The thing is that Qiankun Danuoyi might help you become more proficient at identifying flaws, which is helpful for a newbie like Zhang Wuji who still thinks about opponent's moves at a very detailed level, whereas the experienced Greats use their internal energy more efficiently and thus can terminate you quickly without worrying about the detail of your moves (I mean when the level difference is huge). But the beginners need much practice.

[PJ]

To answer the original question, I don't think QKDNY would be of much help to Great-level fighters. While it does have some very useful features such as energy shifting and energy storage (Zhang Wuji storing the energy from multiple strikes by Fan Yao), it's not certain that these features would work on an opponent of your equal. Furthermore, QKDNY is known to be inferior to the advanced theories of Central Plains such as Liangyi and Eight Trigram. So if a Great uses Eight Trigram steps on Zhang Wuji, he might not be able to use QKDNY at all, which was the case when he faced the Huashan + Kunlun elders who used Eight Trigram steps.

[tape]

So I wonder if QKDNY is a shortcut method for non Great level fighters to get somewhat powerful. Yang Xiao is extremely powerful as well as Yang Diantian, (who might have been one of if not the best fighters of his generation) and they both practiced and treasured QKDNY. They should easily be able to get their hands on other techniques, but they chose QKDNY over the others. Of course they could just be respecting that it's a Ming technique.

[ChronoReverse]

I'd just peg it as a very good technique. It's not really a shortcut for anyone except someone who has freakishly huge internal energy (and for most people like that, they'd have very good technique to accompany it anyway).

And while it's not as good as the best, it's still an upper echelon skill.

[Banh Mi]

Not much of a shortcut when it still takes decades to learn.

[ChronoReverse]

That's the thing, if you do happen to have monster internal energy but no technique, somehow you can learn it quickly.

[Banh Mi]

If you outshadow everyone else by that much in internal energy, you could learn other skills and get good quickly. Which makes it somewhat redundant particularly when other skills have shown great gains and a less ridiculous condition. 9 Yang would be the shortcut.

[AnhHung]

I would agree with PJ about the energy/technique shifting and energy storing. It would make great assets to a Great. But once you have reach Great-level, you wouldnt really need anything more. Like Flamer talking about platou effect.

There are qualities in QKDNY that would be nice to have for a Great, but it wouldnt help them be >>Great. In ZWJ's case, it helps him to reach Great in a short time.

9 yin helped GJ reach Great in a shorter time than it took the orginal Greats. And I understand why they fought for it during LOCH, but by the time of the end of ROCH, I dont think they would benefit much from 9 yin. GJ had it and was ~~ to other Greats.

As I see it, QKDNY is just another art that help you to become a Great. Once you are there, it wont give you any boost, just a few new cool tricks up you sleeves.

To get up a level, you need something like DGSD MAs.

[kyss of the sword]

the idea about QKDNY is that it contains the basics of all kungfu so it's able to recognise the method of inner power release behind advanced techniques, so you can turn the power back on your opponent.