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Thread: Prominent CPC critic gives up.

  1. #21
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    I'm from Taiwan. I have family there, including my parents. My skin, my blood, is very much in the game.
    No, no you don't, not any more than any other east Asian/south east Asian country would be affected by social turmoil and unrest in China. The effect a collapsing Chinese government and economic instability in China would have on you and your family would be significantly less than it would on the people on the mainland. Your skin and blood is a carrier group and a strait removed from the game.

    Do the international polls breakdown into regions or ethnic groups? What are the poll numbers like in Tibet? In Xinjiang? In Hong Kong? Macau?
    Break down polls far enough, and you can get into the single digits. By then, you can have 100% approval or disapproval rates! Wow!

    Polls are only meaningful if you take them in the greater context. There are always segments of a population which are more or less supportive of a particular government or policy; this is true in every country. Or, to put it in U.S. terms, if Pres. Obama has a 70% approval rating, that means he is doing a pretty damn good job, even if he only has a 20% approval rating amongst Republicans.

    PS: Just as a FYI, polls in Hong Kong and Macau ARE way higher in favor of the PRC government than U.S. citizens, say, for our Congress.

    If the PRC thinks it can tell Taiwan what it should or should not be, then I, as a ROC Citizen, has the right to tell the PRC what it should go do with itself.
    Sure. And those of us who actually have BEEN TO and have family in China have the right to tell you that you have no f*cking clue what you're talking about

    PS: And we'd react the same way if a PRC national who never went to Taiwan hopped on this board and started talking about how unstable Taiwan's democracy was and how uncivilized and violent its lawmakers are, how that's proof that the Taiwanese people need to 'rise up and reform their govt', etc. etc.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 04-08-10 at 01:47 PM.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    I do know this:

    Taiwan elects it's own President. Hong Kong and Macau are assigned Chief Executives.

    I have no clue what it's like in China, okay, I admit to that. What I do know is that there is no f*cking way the PRC is going to take over Taiwan as long as the PRC refuses to allow Taiwan to elect their President. I say that as both an American and an ROC citizen who believes in free and open elections.

    If the PRC left Taiwan alone, then you would be completely correct about my involvement in this issue. However, as long as the PRC presumes to tell Taiwan what they can or cannot do, I have every right to speak out against the PRC government and how they do business.
    Last edited by Dirt; 04-08-10 at 01:59 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    I do know this:

    Taiwan elects it's own President. Hong Kong and Macau are assigned Chief Executives.

    I have no clue what it's like in China, okay, I admit to that. What I do know is that there is no f*cking way the PRC is going to take over Taiwan as long as the PRC refuses to allow Taiwan to elect their President. I say that as both an American and an ROC citizen who believes in free and open elections.

    If the PRC left Taiwan alone, then you would be completely correct about my involvement in this issue. However, as long as the PRC presumes to tell Taiwan what they can or cannot do, I have every right to speak out against the PRC government and how they do business.
    I agree that the PRC is not going to take over Taiwan anytime soon, and certainly not against the Taiwanese people's will. And that's the way it should be, and I say that as an American of mainland Chinese descent. For that matter, in many ways, I feel Taiwan might be an excellent model for one possible future path China might take, although a Singaporean type model is also a good possibility (and one which seems to be more likely).

    But I'm confused. Don't Taiwanese people already elect their own presidents? Chen Shuibian, Ma Yingjiu, etc. etc.? Or are you referring to the fact that Taiwan is not considered a country? Where are you getting this stuff about the PRC 'taking over Taiwan' or 'preventing Taiwan from electing presidents'? Confused.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 04-08-10 at 01:57 PM.
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    Senior Member pemberly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    I'm from Taiwan. I have family there, including my parents. My skin, my blood, is very much in the game.

    Do the international polls breakdown into regions or ethnic groups? What are the poll numbers like in Tibet? In Xinjiang? In Hong Kong? Macau?

    If the PRC thinks it can tell Taiwan what it should or should not be or do, then I, as an ROC citizen, has the right to tell the PRC what it should go do with itself.
    The Chinese government's treatment of people in Tibet, XinJiang, etc. is an entirely separate matter. As I've asked before, what are you advocating exactly? Equal rights for all minority groups in China or for all of China to have the same rights as the US?

    And I agree with rwx. You neither live in mainland China nor are you even from there. The laws and any consequences from changes do not affect you. you have a right to disagree with the Chinese government, but other people also have the right to dismiss your opinions as those of an outsider with a big mouth.
    nytimes: Every hr you have 10 minutes where you’re not doing anything productive at work, & you can’t look at porn. So you make a comment & fulfill this desire to show yourself off as a smarty-pants.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pemberly View Post
    The Chinese government's treatment of people in Tibet, XinJiang, etc. is an entirely separate matter. As I've asked before, what are you advocating exactly? Equal rights for all minority groups in China or for all of China to have the same rights as the US?.
    Equal rights for all. Freedom of speech, religion and press.

    Quote Originally Posted by pemberly View Post
    And I agree with rwx. You neither live in mainland China nor are you even from there. The laws and any consequences from changes do not affect you. you have a right to disagree with the Chinese government, but other people also have the right to dismiss your opinions as those of an outsider with a big mouth.
    Based on PRC policy, I'm not an outsider, I'm a part of the PRC. Based on PRC policy, as someone who was born on Taiwan, I am from China.

    As a citizen of the ROC, I have every right to speak out against the PRC and how they do business because the PRC insists on keeping me involved.

    Get the PRC to leave Taiwan alone and I'll shut my big mouth.
    Last edited by Dirt; 04-08-10 at 02:29 PM.

  6. #26
    Senior Member pemberly's Avatar
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    i'm sure there are many mainlanders who have exactly the opposite opinions as you; that Taiwan is a renegade province or whatever and that it and its citizens should be forcibly subjugated. in matters of opinions, there is no right or wrong.

    we've veered too far from our original topic.
    nytimes: Every hr you have 10 minutes where you’re not doing anything productive at work, & you can’t look at porn. So you make a comment & fulfill this desire to show yourself off as a smarty-pants.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    In a Democracy, opinions become votes and votes are everything in a Democracy. Not having freedom of speech, religion and press is wrong.

    Taiwan is considered a renegade province but not an independent country. As such, per the PRC, Taiwan is a part of China, ergo, I must be from China and therefore, not an outsider. I'm just repeating the PRC/CPC Party line.

    Mr. Gao Zhisheng learned the hard way what happens to a person when they vocally disagree with the PRC/CPC Party line.
    Last edited by Dirt; 04-08-10 at 04:44 PM.

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    Senior Member xJadedx's Avatar
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    Is Dirt the new TC?
    Because I'm somewhere in between,
    My love and my agony.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xJadedx View Post
    Is Dirt the new TC?
    If you disagree with me, let's have a substantive discussion. But spare me your insults.
    Last edited by Dirt; 04-08-10 at 05:30 PM.

  10. #30
    Senior Member xJadedx's Avatar
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    Chill out and learn to take a joke. It wasn't an insult.

    I don't care much for the topic under discussion, and for what it's worth, others have stated what I would have said anyway.
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  11. #31
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xJadedx View Post
    Is Dirt the new TC?
    He has been acting like it.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  12. #32
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    In a Democracy, opinions become votes and votes are everything in a Democracy. Not having freedom of speech, religion and press is wrong.

    Taiwan is considered a renegade province but not an independent country. As such, per the PRC, Taiwan is a part of China, ergo, I must be from China and therefore, not an outsider. I'm just repeating the PRC/CPC Party line.

    Mr. Gao Zhisheng learned the hard way what happens to a person when they vocally disagree with the PRC/CPC Party line.
    It isn't the PRC party line, it's pretty much the Taiwanese (and international) party line. Per Taiwan, the US, the UN, and the rest of the world, Taiwan is part of China. The only question is 'who is in charge', with the Taiwanese government's official stance being since 1949 that the ROC government is the 'real' government. Has the Taiwanese policy shifted?

    That being said, the reality of the situation on the ground is that Taiwan's internal domestic situation is only indirectly impacted by the situation in mainland China. In other words, again, despite the rhetoric of Taiwan being part of China, in almost every way that it matters internally/domestically, it isn't. Again. No skin in the game.

    Still not quite seeing where you are personally being affected, or how you are being prevented from electing a president (Taiwan just did), or how China is 'forcing you to' do this or that, or has 'taken over'. In fact, as far as I can see, cross-strait relations are possibly at the best they've been in 10 years.
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  13. #33
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    The PRC has 1400 missiles pointed at Taiwan with the promise of annihilation unless Taiwan kowtows to the PRC/CPC and you really think I have no skin in this game? Should Taiwan give up it's Democratic ideals and capitulate to the PRC? Give up it's freedoms? Would any of you as Americans be willing to give up your freedoms?
    Last edited by Dirt; 04-08-10 at 09:35 PM.

  14. #34
    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    The PRC has 1400 missiles pointed at Taiwan with the promise of annihilation unless Taiwan kowtows to the PRC/CPC and you really think I have no skin in this game? Should Taiwan give up it's Democratic ideals and capitulate to the PRC? Give up it's freedoms? Would any of you as Americans be willing to give up your freedoms?
    You know, I doubt China will ever fire those missiles, unless a bunch of mad hats somehow managed to become key government officials who can make those decisions. You need to differentiate real threats from empty threats.
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  15. #35
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    He has been acting like it.
    Same goes for you. Debate the issues.

  16. #36
    Senior Member xJadedx's Avatar
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    If you want a debate, open a thread in the debate forum. No one is obligated to debate in this thread (and even in the debate threads, people are still free to make whatever observations they want).
    If you can only dish it, but can't take it (even things as little as jokes), too bad.
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  17. #37
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    The PRC has 1400 missiles pointed at Taiwan with the promise of annihilation unless Taiwan kowtows to the PRC/CPC and you really think I have no skin in this game? Should Taiwan give up it's Democratic ideals and capitulate to the PRC? Give up it's freedoms? Would any of you as Americans be willing to give up your freedoms?
    Again, you drift off into wild exaggerations and sensationalism. The PRC has missiles pointed at Taiwan as a deterrence against any declaration of independence (which the USA is also against). It is NOT a factor in day-to-day Taiwanese governance! It isn't to make Taiwan "give up its democratic ideals" or "kowtow". I've never heard anyone make the claim that the missiles are being used to force Taiwan to abandon democracy, or to force the Taiwanese administration to do this or that, aside from the sole issue of declaring independence.

    Dirt. You have NO SKIN IN THE GAME when it comes to the possible disastrous results which agitating for the overthrow of the current Chinese political system could result in. NONE. You would be POSITIVELY affected if the Chinese government transforms into a paradise, but you would NOT suffer the negative consequences if the Chinese government collapses and China returns to the days of internal instability.

    What you are doing is akin to trying to gamble with an enemy's money, then claiming that you have 'skin in the game' because if you win the bet, you would win money. That's not skin in the game. Skin in the game is personally being affected by the possibility that your gamble turns castatrophic. You have no skin in the game, because if the Chinese government collapses and the Chinese economy sputters, you lose nothing, aside from what every country in Asia stands to lose. In fact, you would probably feel happy in some ways, because you won't need to worry as much about China 'oppressing' Taiwan and making it 'kowtow', whatever that means.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 04-09-10 at 12:48 AM.
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  18. #38
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Taiwan can't join WHA to learn about all the major diseases going around in the world. There's also an organization that tracks earthquakes (a major problem in Taiwan) that Taiwan cannot join because of those 1400 missiles. Just last week, a Taiwanese freighter was captured by Somali pirates and instead of being able to send representatives or even the navy to help protect Taiwanese frieghters, Taiwan had to ask Britain and the USA for help. You have your head in the sand of you think those 1400 missiles doesn't effect daily governance in Taiwan.

    Our country believes in freedom of speech, religion and press. It's the only reason our country still supports Taiwan.

    Exactly, as someone who has everything to gain from the Democratization of China, the safety of the Taiwanese people from those 1400 missiles, I have a vested interest in this "game". What about my interest and the safety and freedom of the people of Taiwan are you not understanding? Theblives of the Taiwanese people are very important to me because some of those people share my DNA. Wha about that do you not understand?
    Last edited by Dirt; 04-09-10 at 01:45 AM.

  19. #39
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    Taiwan can't join WHA to learn about all the major diseases going around in the world. There's also an organization that tracks earthquakes (a major problem in Taiwan) that Taiwan cannot join because of those 1400 missiles. Just last week, a Taiwanese freighter was captured by Somali pirates and instead of being able to send representatives or even the navy to help protect Taiwanese frieghters, Taiwan had to ask Britain and the USA for help. You have your head in the sand of you think those 1400 missiles doesn't effect daily governance in Taiwan.
    Aside from the fact that Taiwan already has observer status (just not voting rights) at the WHA and thus can learn about all the diseases going around the world, Taiwan can't fully join the WHA because Taiwan is not recognized as a separate country, be it by the USA, by China, by the UN, or by Taiwan itself, NOT because of the missiles. Totally separate issues; if the missiles disappeared tomorrow, not a damn thing would change w/regards to Taiwan being recognized as a separate country, which the TAIWANESE GOVERNMENT itself does not claim. You are getting desperate.

    As both an American and an ROC citizen, I have everything invested and to gain in the Democratization of China. What about that are you not understanding?
    You have everything to gain in the successful democratization of China, but you have nothing to lose if the attempt at democratization results in failure, chaos, and instability.

    That is why it is the equivalent of gambling with someone else's money. That is why you have no 'skin in the game'; if the policies you are pushing for result in failure and disaster, it costs you nothing.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 04-09-10 at 01:44 AM.
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  20. #40
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    You have a vested interest, but no skin. You risk nothing if governmental overthrow results in China collapsing. In fact, it'd probably make you happier in some ways, since an weaker China results in a relatively more secure Taiwan.

    Your past few posts have ably demonstrated that your only real interest is in ensuring Taiwan becomes safer, whether it be by China collapsing or China becoming a democracy. You really don't give much of a damn about what happens to the Chinese people who would be directly impacted (positively or negatively) by the overthrow that you are calling for. And that's why you have zero credibility here whatsoever.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 04-09-10 at 01:53 AM.
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