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Thread: Tiananmen Mothers

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    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Default Tiananmen Mothers

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100602/...hina_tiananmen

    Some who fight for freedom and rights will say, "No justice, no peace." Unfortunately, it seems that the Communist Party in China has been very successful in ensuring that these women will go to their final peace with no justice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100602/...hina_tiananmen

    Some who fight for freedom and rights will say, "No justice, no peace." Unfortunately, it seems that the Communist Party in China has been very successful in ensuring that these women will go to their final peace with no justice.
    If these parents were smart enough to prevent their children from protesting, their children wouldn't die the way they did. I am not condoning what the chinese government did to the students, but they, the protesters, should know the consequences of their actions. They should know what the chinese government is capable with. Many of them are highly educated students, if they don't like their government they should find a way to immigrate to countries that have government that they like. In fact, there are lot of chinese students study at Canadian University stay in Canada after they are done. Most of them do not go back.

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    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    If these parents were smart enough to prevent their children from protesting, their children wouldn't die the way they did. I am not condoning what the chinese government did to the students, but they, the protesters, should know the consequences of their actions. They should know what the chinese government is capable with. Many of them are highly educated students, if they don't like their government they should find a way to immigrate to countries that have government that they like. In fact, there are lot of chinese students study at Canadian University stay in Canada after they are done. Most of them do not go back.
    TC, did the thought of those students loving their country ever come to your mind? They love their country, so they don't just pack up and leave. They stay and fight so they can make it a better place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    If these parents were smart enough to prevent their children from protesting, their children wouldn't die the way they did. I am not condoning what the chinese government did to the students, but they, the protesters, should know the consequences of their actions. They should know what the chinese government is capable with. Many of them are highly educated students, if they don't like their government they should find a way to immigrate to countries that have government that they like. In fact, there are lot of chinese students study at Canadian University stay in Canada after they are done. Most of them do not go back.
    You know what? There would not be such free countries to migrate to if all their earlier citizens think like you. If there's no Boston Tea party, there would not be a free U.S. today.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    "Can it be that you really want to wear us all down or wait for our deaths so that the problem will naturally disappear?" the group wrote in an essay addressed to the Chinese government and made public this week through the New York-based group Human Rights in China.
    I think that's exactly what they are trying to do.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    Senior Member pemberly's Avatar
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    i can't stand it!! stop taking the bait!!!!
    nytimes: Every hr you have 10 minutes where you’re not doing anything productive at work, & you can’t look at porn. So you make a comment & fulfill this desire to show yourself off as a smarty-pants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pemberly View Post
    i can't stand it!! stop taking the bait!!!!
    TC's bait or Dirt's bait?
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guo Xiang View Post
    TC, did the thought of those students loving their country ever come to your mind? They love their country, so they don't just pack up and leave. They stay and fight so they can make it a better place.
    This is politically correct. So what good did they bring to china? What did china benefit from their deaths?? Nothing. Their actions made china look bad internationally. Change should come very very slowly, not overnight. I think China is not ready for democracy. If china becomes a democracy to quick, many regions like XinJiang, Tibet, and Inner Mongolia might be able to break away. Therefore, democracy may work well for other countries, but could be a disaster for China.

    Quote Originally Posted by kidd View Post
    You know what? There would not be such free countries to migrate to if all their earlier citizens think like you. If there's no Boston Tea party, there would not be a free U.S. today.
    Again, this is politically correct but US and China are not the same. Something that work well in US doesn't mean it also work well in China.

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    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    This is politically correct. So what good did they bring to china? What did china benefit from their deaths??
    Economic acceleration. Historically, revolutions occur in China when the people are hungry. Tiananmen made the CPC realize that they had to accelerate economic reforms pacify their citizens by keeping them well fed.
    Last edited by Dirt; 06-03-10 at 03:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    Again, this is politically correct but US and China are not the same. Something that work well in US doesn't mean it also work well in China.
    This is silly. You think those protesters knew for sure at the time they were protesting that it will work out well? They were taking risk just like the students. This is not political correctness. This is a fact that many countries including US started their path to independence because people took initiative to do something instead of just running away.
    Secondly, the US then was not the same as US now.

    I can understand your POV that China is not ready for democracy and I can understand China's decision back then. But, I'm still disgusted at the way you speak about the students and protesters (and their parents) who did what they did because they want the best for their country. They were not even like the red shirt group in Thailand. What they did were peaceful protest and it grew really big because more people joined it (obviously their sentiments resonate with a lot of people).
    I don't condemn people who choose a better life for themselves by leaving for greener pastures. But, I hate people who did that AND condemn others who stayed back and fight for the betterment of the country.
    Last edited by kidd; 06-03-10 at 08:48 PM.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    When we are young as the students, they are full of ideas, full of oppression and full of hope. We think that by our strokes, we can change a system instantly.

    All countries change. This includes China too. The country is growing and developing. Of course, there is inequality between urban and rural. The latter will catch up. Slowly but surely, China will overtake US as the largest economy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    When we are young as the students, they are full of ideas, full of oppression and full of hope. We think that by our strokes, we can change a system instantly.

    All countries change. This includes China too. The country is growing and developing. Of course, there is inequality between urban and rural. The latter will catch up. Slowly but surely, China will overtake US as the largest economy.
    This is happening in Egypt and Ivory Coast right now. Things for sure will be change for them but not necessarily for the better, more likely for the worse. Let's see.

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    China was changing. Then the Olympics ended and the USA's economy tanked. Wen Jiabao called for political reforms. None have come. China stopped changing and there's little sign that they will.

    If the CCP truly cared about improving China's economy, they would allow greater freedom of information, a lynch pin towards a free economy that would allow the rural areas to catch up faster to the urban areas. But the CCP could never allow freedom of information, that would threaten their hold on power.

    China won't change unless people ask for change. If Egypt can rise up for change without Civil War and without rampant violence, why can't China?
    Last edited by Dirt; 02-07-11 at 12:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    China won't change unless people ask for change. If Egypt can rise up for change without Civil War and without rampant violence, why can't China?
    Egypt is not exactly China. One has 10% GDP growth with visible improvement of standard of living to massive number of people. Other is propped up by foreign powers with large amount of uneducated, unemployed, angry youth.

    Political reform should not happen overnight. The colored revolution was encouraged by the west in were good examples. It will remain to be seen if Egypt improves or will go from a west puppet dictator state to a Islam fundamentalist state. Good and noble intention does not guarantee results that will benefit the people. Tienanmen was a lose lose for everyone, except the west who utilized it for their own political benefit.

    China has more political and media freedom than it did 30 years ago. There is no reason to believe it wouldn't continue to improve. I do agree CCP should slowly relax its grip on the media control.

    And FYI, even if China liberalizes and the the politics reforms. China will not give up its claim on Taiwan (and Tibet/XJ just for completeness sake) in this generation or the next one (and lets face it, this is probably your main beef with China). The history, the culture, and the nationalism is too ingrained for it to happen. If anything, a democratic mainland government might even be more "pushy" when it comes to this for the sake of domestic politics.
    Last edited by Dimeron; 02-07-11 at 05:58 PM.

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    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Uh, no. If the Taiwan of today were still under single-party dictatorship by the KMT and regularly threw people in jail for wanting more freedom (the Kaoshiung 8 for instance), I'd be just as vocal against it. I believe that Tibet is a part of China, I also believe they should be allowed to worship whomever they choose. I've also voiced on this board that should China have the same liberal economy and politics as Taiwan, talks to re-unify Taiwan with the Mainland should begin immediately. Absent of that liberalization, I think China should stop oppressing Taiwan. I'm not for Taiwan Independence, should they ever declare Independence, I'd go back and congratulate all the citizens of the Republic of Taiwan and go to the closest government office and renounce any claims and rights to being a citizen of that new Republic. Then I'd come home and continue being a Chinese American.

    In short, you're wrong. But thanks for stereotyping.
    Last edited by Dirt; 02-07-11 at 10:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    China was changing. Then the Olympics ended and the USA's economy tanked. Wen Jiabao called for political reforms. None have come. China stopped changing and there's little sign that they will.

    If the CCP truly cared about improving China's economy, they would allow greater freedom of information, a lynch pin towards a free economy that would allow the rural areas to catch up faster to the urban areas. But the CCP could never allow freedom of information, that would threaten their hold on power.

    China won't change unless people ask for change. If Egypt can rise up for change without Civil War and without rampant violence, why can't China?
    Why would people want change if things work well for them and the country is headed in the right direction? Change doesn't mean change for the better, it could be change for the worse.
    China's economy is improving everyday. It's growing at a rate of more than 10% a year, no need to change. Is China an ideal country? The answer is NO but things are getting better everyday. China and Egypt are two completely different countries. Things that work well for Egypt may not work for China and vice versa. If massive protest occurs again in China, I bet there will be another Tiananmen Square Massacre.
    Last edited by Trien Chieu; 02-08-11 at 06:22 PM.

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    10 percent growth is great ay but the enviroment is a huge issue that not alot are looking into.

    The three gorges dam itself is a major problem if it fail.
    building it cost million to be under sea. and if it fail well, you ever seen flooding?






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