Statements by Jin Yong that you believe are false

[PJ]

I'm convinced that some statements re: martial arts levels in the novels by Jin Yong have little to no merit.

I'm not talking about ambiguous descriptions such as "someone has reached the level of perfection." Even very specific, quantatative statements are sketchy.

For example, Jin Yong said that Guo Jing would take about 1000 stances to win against GWM. I can't imagine it would take that long. GWM was sub-Great level almost every time he appeared, despite statements saying he was Great-level.

When GWM encountered Zhou Botong at Kublai Khan's camp and Passionless Valley, it was obvious that GWM was no match for Zhou. Zhou toyed with GWM and the other Mongolian warriors like children.

The only way Guo Jing would need 1000 stances to defeat GWM, is if they fought mechanically and robotically without using their mind. Otherwise, I don't think it should take more than 200 stances.

[ChronoReverse]

Frankly, if we allow for "circumstances" GWM technically lost to GJ already in TWO moves during the heroes meet. GWM had no way of knowing whether GJ would send out a second palm after their initial palm clash. Because of his pride, he didn't take a step back to reduce the impact and was thus pretty much paralyzed for a short while. Young YG could have taken his life at this point, much less GJ!

How could anyone who gets such tremendous brainfarts possibly be a match for a person like GJ who tends to fight above his ability because he doesn't do anything stupid?



In any case, I've already mentioned many times in many different arguments across different books cases where what JY states simply cannot be true in the light of what actually happened. Actions in the novel are at a higher canonicity over statements in the novel; this is something that must be considered. In fact, only other Actions and direct Word of God can contradict Actions.

[PJ]

Another statement I believe to be false is that Yideng might only be able to defeat Qiu Qianren by 1/2 a stance, implying that he cannot kill Qiu in a real duel, which GWM did, which has led to some suggesting GWM > Yideng.

Given Qiu's sucky record and weak mentality, I'd think Yideng, Huang Yaoshi, etc should be able to defeat him without much trouble in a fight.

I think what Jin Yong was trying to say is that the actual martial arts attainment of Qiu Qianren is about equal to that of Yideng. But when we factor in the fighting ability, then Qiu Qianren < Greats.

[tape]

That Qiu Qian Ren is on the same level as the Greats in LOCH is pretty false to me too. In every single fight that he has appeared in, he has proved more worthless than GWM has in ROCH. He wasn't confident he could subdue Guo Jing quickly even before GJ learned 9 Yin, and there were many full powered palm clashes where he staked it all and barely won against Guo Jing. Then we have the real Greats pretty much insta gibbing Guo (at that point in the novel) a few scenes later.

[ChronoReverse]

Hmm, I don't think there was any point where GJ fought QQR without some of the benefit of 9 Yin (even though GJ maximized the gain during the time he was forced to duel OYF continuously).

[tape]

His first fight with QQR at the Beggar's Clan meeting where they exchanged several strokes and QQR was described to be staking it all with his iron palm energies which Guo Jing was able to take quite easily.

At that point, he didn't gain too much from 9 Yin. And I can't imagine any Great having to stake his all against Guo Jing and not blowing Guo Jing away. About a week ago when Ouyang Feng launched an attack at him, everyone was including himself was surprised he could even dodge it much less block it heads on.

[PJ]

Another sketchy claim is the Zhenwu Formation doubling its power with each additional member, where the 7 Heroes of Wudang using this formation would = 64 First Class Fighters. Although I love the idea, it's hard to imagine it actually working as advertized, especially when we see many nice ideas failing to live up to their claims throughout the Jin Yong universe.

[ChronoReverse]

His first fight with QQR at the Beggar's Clan meeting where they exchanged several strokes and QQR was described to be staking it all with his iron palm energies which Guo Jing was able to take quite easily.

But he has gained significantly from 9 Yin at this point. First off, he had the forging bit that increases internal energy and strength. Furthermore, by staring at the Big Dipper for a while, he achieved a break through in understanding how to control his energy.

Physical evidence of this is GJ suddenly being able to break the bonds that he was previously unable to break. This indicated that his strength application has improved. Then he was able to send beggars as "attacks" in a way that did not harm them at all which indicates that his control had dramatically improved as well.

At that point, he didn't gain too much from 9 Yin. And I can't imagine any Great having to stake his all against Guo Jing and not blowing Guo Jing away. About a week ago when Ouyang Feng launched an attack at him, everyone was including himself was surprised he could even dodge it much less block it heads on.

GJ actually took on one of OYF's attacks head on even though OYF did immediately reduce his power slightly on Peach Blossom Island long before this. Ever since the training from ZBT, GJ's ability had already increased significantly. The incident with the Beggar's Clan saw another large jump. Finally the extreme training with OYF pushed him to be a threat to Greats.

[Candide]

Jin Yong's constant put-down of Guo Jing's aptitude in martial arts is all false. The man is incredibly talented.

I can't think of anyone, outside of the Greats or other main protagonists, who could learn the things he did in such short time, as well as figuring out plenty of elite level martial arts by himself.

The way Jin Yong worded it, it's as if he's a drooling retard who has no hope of learning MA ever.

[CFT]

Guo Jing is just a simple straightforward "country bumpkin" to begin with. Slow on the uptake. Certainly not an agile mind compard to Yang Guo. However he does have a good martial arts foundation: good techniques from the Seven Freaks and the Quanzhen orthodox internal cultivation.

He's got perseverence and actually a good dollop of martial intuitiveness. Once his 9Yin training started he was able to absorb knowledge from his personal encounters as well as those between the Greats, which seemed to help him unlock the 9Yin knowledge for application.

[tape]

Guo Jing also had a lot of direct experiences and encounters that most people generally don't have, and put in situations where if he didn't learn it, he would die.

Some weren't as fortunate as him to see Greats fight all the time, and having so many things explained to him. A lot of famed martial artists who have been active for dozens of years barely get a glimpse of even Qiu Chuji level fighters -- I think that plays a huge role in how crappy they are. If you never see how good the real elites are, it's kind of hard to improve to their level. I imagine a lot of them waste most of their lives practicing the same kicks and punches and slowly improve over years and feel they've mastered an art. Guo Jing had the luxury of seeing how flawed his own martial arts were and given the insight on how to improve almost constantly.

[Loke-Gao-Zhu]

In the supposed Shaolin vs Wudang duel in 100th birthday. JY thinks the first two Wudang 7, Song Yuan Qiao and Yue Lian Jou are as strong as the Kong monks yet ZCS stated that it needs to take them 10 more years to be as strong as XX.

[ChronoReverse]

In the supposed Shaolin vs Wudang duel in 100th birthday. JY thinks the first two Wudang 7, Song Yuan Qiao and Yue Lian Jou are as strong as the Kong monks yet ZCS stated that it needs to take them 10 more years to be as strong as XX.

Considering ZCS compares XX to Z3F in ability, I'd say it's more ZCS being really bad at judging ability...

[PJ]

In the supposed Shaolin vs Wudang duel in 100th birthday. JY thinks the first two Wudang 7, Song Yuan Qiao and Yue Lian Jou are as strong as the Kong monks yet ZCS stated that it needs to take them 10 more years to be as strong as XX.

I think you're referring to this line:

俞莲舟这一下看似险着，实则也是逼不得已，他深知少林三大神僧功力甚高，年纪
远比自己师兄弟为大，修为亦自较久，若是单打独斗，大师哥宋远桥当可和其中一人打成
平手，自己伤后初愈，未必能挡得住一位神僧。至于余下的一位，不论张松溪、殷梨亭或
莫声谷，都非输不可。

It says that Yu Lianzhou thought Song Yuanqiao should be able to fend off a Kong monk, while he (Yu) might not, and the other Wudang heroes definitely could not.

Song Yuanqiao at this point is weaker than a Kong monk, but Wudang martial arts are great at conserving energy, so Song might be able to fend off a Kong monk like Yu estimated.

[kyss of the sword]

i don't think the statements of JLFW losing after a thousand moves is false. he was powerful enough that he was undefeated one on one till the very end. he had the advantage against rev yideng till the eagles interfered. ZBT only managed to disperse his force without being able to hurt JLFW. ZBT wouldn't lose with vacant fist but also couldn't win. in the tent with the experts, ZBT made the fist move so got an advantage, but that was a long way from a win. ZBT was able to beat the greats with his mutual hands combat so upstaging JLFW is not an indicator of level.
QQR exchanged a few transmitting force type attacks. GJ was using 9yin inner power skills. QQR was using iron palm inner power which would have been of a lesser quality. GJ had lesser volume of a higher quality qi while QQR had a much greater reserve of a lower quality qi. so in that type of transmitting exchange they drew equal. in the actual fight on the boat, GJ was losing without HR's help. GJ had improved enough that before fighting with QQR, he held his own against OYF for several moves and when OYF tried to take it easy on him to see his skills, GJ almost got an upset win. in the stone room, QQR, OYF and ZBT fought evenly with GJ holding his own with mutual hands combat.

[CC]

GWM, as the main antagonist, is subject to the whimsies of Plot Devices so trying to put an exact ranking of his martial arts is hard since he gets put down by Plot Devices.

I have to admit, the time when he had to fend of the multiple greats put him in a very strong light. But then the Plot Devices have ZBT stealing his food, GJ smashing his cup and some 4th rate fighter smacking his head! Poor Goldie!

[PJ]

I have to admit, the time when he had to fend of the multiple greats put him in a very strong light.

You mean after the 16 years? Maybe he really DOUBLED his power then.

some 4th rate fighter smacking his head! Poor Goldie!

Ma Guangzuo was no 4th rate fighter. He doesn't even know any martial arts (IIRC).

[Dirt]

Jinlun Guoshi

[CC]

Ma Guangzuo was no 4th rate fighter. He doesn't even know any martial arts (IIRC).

Awww, c'mon. Based on JY's usage of '1st Class Elite Fighters' to describe random Ju Xian Zhuang type goons, Ma should qualify for 4th tier.

[PJ]

Awww, c'mon. Based on JY's usage of '1st Class Elite Fighters' to describe random Ju Xian Zhuang type goons, Ma should qualify for 4th tier.

I assumed that "tier/rate" = the actual, normalized level within a novel,
whereas "class" = something loosely stated by Jin Yong.

For example, Xiao Xiangzi is "1st class" b/c Jin Yong said so, but he is really "2nd tier" (or 3rd tier depending on where one ranks Xiao Longnu) when we rank him amid everyone else.

Personally, I think Ma Guangzuo must be lower than 4th tier or class. I wonder how he compares to Yang Tiexin though.