The Official Kiu Fung vs. Kau Mor Tze Thread

[Ken Cheng]

The greatest fight that didn't happen in DGSD.

They're known to be about on par in martial arts, but in a fair fight, who would prevail, and how long would it take?

[BlackRaven]

I have the feeling that this fight will still be even after 1 full day of fighting.

Xiao Feng's primary advantage over his father and Murong Bo is because Feng is a man in his prime, while Bo and his dad are very old. Plus Bo and his dad are suffering severe side effects from learning Shaolin skills in an non-proper method.

Great Wheel Monk appears to be younger than Bo and Xiao's dad, and the symptoms of abusive training were not yet severe enough to affect his battle performance. At least the way that Sweeper Monk described Bo and Xiao's dad anomalies made them look more serious than the early symptoms of Great Wheel Monk.

[Han Solo]

QF for the win, for the fact that KMT (like Kuo min tang!!) have moments of panic and surrenders his advantages in fights.

Han Solo

[PJ]

Much as I think highly of Jiumozhi's martial arts, he will be bested by one other DGSD Elite, namely Xiao Feng.

[Ken Cheng]

QF for the win, for the fact that KMT (like Kuo min tang!!) have moments of panic and surrenders his advantages in fights.

Han Solo

Kau Mor Tze isn't nearly as bad as his spiritual descendant, the Golden Wheel Monk, at this, but I guess he suffers from that problem too.

[K2Grey]

>.> I thought he was talking about the Nationalist Party and not GWM ;0

[Ken Cheng]

The odd thing about this matchup is that Kau Mor Tze's martial arts repertoire is far broader and more sophisticated than Kiu Fung's and yet, in a straight fight, Kau Mor Tze has no real advantage over Kiu Fung at all.

They never fought in the novel, and the two skirmishes in DGSD '81 were very brief and inconclusive. Both fights in DGSD '81 took place in Hsi Hsia. During the first fight, Kau Mor Tze was threatening Deun Yu again, demanding the Yik Gun Ging. Kiu Fung, being in the room at the time, took exception to the monk's threatening his good brother and attacked. What happened after that isn't clear: the two mighty warriors exchanged about two strokes and then, Kiu Fung launched a palm attack and Kau Mor Tze leaped backwards to avoid the blow. Kau Mor Tze didn't look frightened, but he seemed to acknowledge that Kiu Fung was an extremely formidable opponent and backed down, deciding that it wasn't a good idea to accost Deun Yu while Kiu Fung was around. DGSD '81 used SFX in that scene, with Kau Mor Tze's form being shifted into multiple images as he leaped back from Kiu Fung's strike. To this day, I'm not sure if that SFX represented the power of Kiu Fung's Hong Lung 28 Palms strike or Kau Mor Tze's own inner power deflecting/avoiding the blow.

The second fight occurred shortly afterwards and was just as quick and indecisive. At a morning reception to celebrate Hui Juk's betrothal to the Hsi-Hsia princess, Kau Mor Tze (acting on orders from the Tubo Kingdom prince) tried to force the Hsi-Hsia king to sign a humiliating treaty with Tubo that would place Hsi-Hsia under vassal status to Tubo. To get to the king, Kau Mor Tze first drilled a hole underground "Superman" style (yeah, I know...), tunneled his way under the earth, and then emerged at the bottom of the steps below the terrace where the king was seated. Waiting for him there was Kiu Fung, who had seen what was happening and had leaped in a more traditional hing gung way from his seat to meet the monk at the bottom of the steps. Once again, they exchanged two indecisive strokes and then, a palm clash. The result of the palm clash was that Kiu Fung didn't move, but Kau Mor Tze was propelled directly toward the king. Kau Mor Tze thanked Kiu Fung for helping him get to the king. The monk was being sarcastic, of course, but I sort of wonder if he would have *flown* back from the force of Kiu Fung's palms if his intent hadn't been to get near the king in the first place.

[Ken Cheng]

The odd thing is: although I believe that Kiu Fung could win a fight against Kau Mor Tze, Kiu Fung probably couldn't do all those nifty little tricks that Kau Mor Tze could...such as lighting candles on fire with his palm energy (never saw Hong Lung 28 Palms do anything like that), deflecting five incoming streams of 6 Mak Divine Swords simultaneously, or imitating Shaolin's 72 Techniques. Kiu Fung's martial arts are, for the lack of a better word, more straightforward. The closest thing I've seen Kiu Fung do to the kind of "parlor tricks" that Kau Mor Tze had was pulling Pau But Tung's saber off the ground with his palm force...or maybe erasing Deun Yin Hing's writing from the stone ground with a sweep of his foot.

[Ian Liew]

The odd thing about this matchup is that Kau Mor Tze's martial arts repertoire is far broader and more sophisticated than Kiu Fung's and yet, in a straight fight, Kau Mor Tze has no real advantage over Kiu Fung at all.

They never fought in the novel, and the two skirmishes in DGSD '81 were very brief and inconclusive. Both fights in DGSD '81 took place in Hsi Hsia. During the first fight, Kau Mor Tze was threatening Deun Yu again, demanding the Yik Gun Ging. Kiu Fung, being in the room at the time, took exception to the monk's threatening his good brother and attacked. What happened after that isn't clear: the two mighty warriors exchanged about two strokes and then, Kiu Fung launched a palm attack and Kau Mor Tze leaped backwards to avoid the blow. Kau Mor Tze didn't look frightened, but he seemed to acknowledge that Kiu Fung was an extremely formidable opponent and backed down, deciding that it wasn't a good idea to accost Deun Yu while Kiu Fung was around. DGSD '81 used SFX in that scene, with Kau Mor Tze's form being shifted into multiple images as he leaped back from Kiu Fung's strike. To this day, I'm not sure if that SFX represented the power of Kiu Fung's Hong Lung 28 Palms strike or Kau Mor Tze's own inner power deflecting/avoiding the blow.

The second fight occurred shortly afterwards and was just as quick and indecisive. At a morning reception to celebrate Hui Juk's betrothal to the Hsi-Hsia princess, Kau Mor Tze (acting on orders from the Tubo Kingdom prince) tried to force the Hsi-Hsia king to sign a humiliating treaty with Tubo that would place Hsi-Hsia under vassal status to Tubo. To get to the king, Kau Mor Tze first drilled a hole underground "Superman" style (yeah, I know...), tunneled his way under the earth, and then emerged at the bottom of the steps below the terrace where the king was seated. Waiting for him there was Kiu Fung, who had seen what was happening and had leaped in a more traditional hing gung way from his seat to meet the monk at the bottom of the steps. Once again, they exchanged two indecisive strokes and then, a palm clash. The result of the palm clash was that Kiu Fung didn't move, but Kau Mor Tze was propelled directly toward the king. Kau Mor Tze thanked Kiu Fung for helping him get to the king. The monk was being sarcastic, of course, but I sort of wonder if he would have *flown* back from the force of Kiu Fung's palms if his intent hadn't been to get near the king in the first place.

Going by adaptations, though, DGSD 97 puts JMZ very obviously below the level of XF. They had a palm clash and JMZ pretty much vomited blood while XF walked away.

[minutemanwayne]

Xiao Feng was way too overpowered in that adaptation. He defeated Murong Fu and Iron Head within a few stances

[tape]

Heh when talking about adaptations we make it sound like video game patches. Xiao Feng in patch 1.3b is overpowered !

[Dai Hiep]

Going by adaptations, though, DGSD 97 puts JMZ very obviously below the level of XF. They had a palm clash and JMZ pretty much vomited blood while XF walked away.

another problem i see here is KMZ he didnt try to perfect any of the martial arts he learned, his more like us readers just want to grab his hands on every strong martial arts while neglecting to learn/train his strongest martial arts to its full potential....

[chibidaisuke]

Wow what a lopsided poll. If Jin Yong was ever to write such a fight, most likely he'll allow XF to emerge as the victor.

[CC]

. The closest thing I've seen Kiu Fung do to the kind of "parlor tricks" that Kau Mor Tze had was pulling Pau But Tung's saber off the ground with his palm force...or maybe erasing Deun Yin Hing's writing from the stone ground with a sweep of his foot.

XF could also use his Dragon Palm energy to 'remote-control' objects.

He used his 'Dragon in the Field' palm to long-distance grab MRF's thrown projectile, swing it behind DY's head and send it back to MRF.

I don't think H7G or GJ ever used Dragon Palms for that kind of fine object control. Little details like this always get conveniently ignored by the XF=Brute Force no Finesse camp.

[Dai Hiep]

does jing yong know how to troll his readers?

[PJ]

Little details like this always get conveniently ignored by the XF=Brute Force no Finesse camp.

That's b/c a few outliers like this one stands in the way of a Grand Unified Theory.

Besides, they get canceled out by the few detractions such as not being able to kill a tiger with 70% of his power.

[CC]

That's b/c a few outliers like this one stands in the way of a Grand Unified Theory.

Besides, they get canceled out by the few detractions such as not being able to kill a tiger with 70% of his power.

What GUT? Do we have one?

Besides, your mentioned incident of not killing the Tiger doesn't affect the Brute-with-no-finesse debate.

[PJ]

What GUT? Do we have one?

the "LOCH = Elegance, DGSD = Power" theory.

Besides, your mentioned incident of not killing the Tiger doesn't affect the Brute-with-no-finesse debate.

Makes XF look bad whereas your example makes him look good. So overall = cancel each other out.

[CC]

the "LOCH = Elegance, DGSD = Power" theory.



Makes XF look bad whereas your example makes him look good. So overall = cancel each other out.

I was only addressing the 'no-finesse' portion of the GUT. Your example has no bearing on that part! In fact, it goes against the DGSD=Power theory.

Besides, I never subscribed to _that_ GUT concept. Just look at JMZ!

[Ken Cheng]

Wow what a lopsided poll. If Jin Yong was ever to write such a fight, most likely he'll allow XF to emerge as the victor.

While I have no doubt that Kiu Fung can and probably should win, I doubt the fight would be as one-sided as the poll suggests. That Kau Mor Tze character was no pushover. Although Kiu Fung might emerge victorious, he'll definitely show signs of having been in the fight of his life.