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Thread: The Nobel Peace Prize 2010 goes to...

  1. #21
    Moderator kidd's Avatar
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    I don't get the 'no dead person' rule. You mean, after they died, their contribution is not worthy anymore?

    Update: Read wiki just now. I think the 'no dead person' rule is because of the prize given to the winner. The winner will win a medal, a diploma and a large sum of money (US$1.4 million).

    Read more:
    Later, when the Dalai Lama was awarded the Peace Prize in 1989, the chairman of the committee said that this was "in part a tribute to the memory of Mahatma Gandhi."
    I don't get this. In what way is awarding the award to Dalai Lama a tribute to Gandhi? In what way are they connected?
    Last edited by kidd; 10-11-10 at 01:18 AM.
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  2. #22
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd View Post
    I don't get the 'no dead person' rule. You mean, after they died, their contribution is not worthy anymore?
    I think they want to encourage and reward *current* achievements. It could get ridiculous if they open it up to the dead, with about five-thousand years worth of worthy candidates to choose from. It's hard enough picking every year just among the living.

    Maybe they could have a special category: Nobel Emeritus, or something.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I think they want to encourage and reward *current* achievements. It could get ridiculous if they open it up to the dead, with about five-thousand years worth of worthy candidates to choose from. It's hard enough picking every year just among the living.

    Maybe they could have a special category: Nobel Emeritus, or something.
    Well, if the candidate just passed away recently, then why not?

    I don't get this. In what way is awarding the award to Dalai Lama a tribute to Gandhi? In what way are they connected?
    Fighting for freedom and evil governments, maybe.

    Update: Read wiki just now. I think the 'no dead person' rule is because of the prize given to the winner. The winner will win a medal, a diploma and a large sum of money (US$1.4 million).
    Nonsense. They could have donated that money to some charity fund or good cause in the winner's name and memory.
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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    When a bloke like Gandhi didn't win the NPP but awesome fellas like Arafat the terrorist leader, Dalai Lama the serf owner and Obama the war monger all did, you just know this year it will come to the most deserving candidate: Liu "China must become a colony of the West for another 300 years" Xiaobo.
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    I do hope that Liu will be released soon. We need people to speak out to the government if something is not right, and the general public are too traditionally restricted and submissive. They can complain heaps in leisure but when it comes to speaking out aloud, they tend to keep quiet and walk away. We need these reformers in China to bring along change and human rights because they won't happen if no one talks. I don't believe that China needs to mimick the West because of a different culture and values, but human rights and equality and justice are very important matters that need to be monitored and upgraded in China.

    I do agree that Liu winning the NPP this year will make people more curious and aware of his predicament and values. And I hope he and his wife will be reunited soon.
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    I think the NPP committee completely misses the boat on what is going on in China.

    The following article presents a more balanced view.

    http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/Dickson.pdf

    Despite this conventional wisdom, the CCP has been more adaptable and more resilient than it often gets credit for. Most observers look at China’s political reform primarily in terms of whether it is becoming more democratic, but democratization is not the only metric for measuring political development. If we recognize that greater democracy is not the immediate goal of China’s leaders, we may also find that the domestic environment is not so desperate or fragile after all. The CCP is pursuing a variety of political reforms that are intended to enhance the capacity of the state to govern effectively, if not democratically. It has used a mix of measures to shore up popular support, resolve local protests, and incorporate the beneficiaries of economic reform into the political system. In turn, it also forcefully represses efforts to challenge its authority and monopoly on political power and organization. As a result, public opinion is surprisingly complacent: while many are unhappy with their current situation, they remain optimistic about the future. This is not a recipe for imminent revolution. China’s leaders face a series of serious problems, but they are more chronic than acute, and absent a sudden and unexpected flare-up do not pose an imminent threat to the incumbent regime.
    In contrast to common portrayals of acute strife between state and society, anecdotal reports and survey research show a surprising degree of popular support for the existing political system and the reform agenda. There is tremendous pride in the country’s rapid rise and growing prosperity. Even those who are unsatisfied with their current situation are optimistic about the future. There is also wide-spread support for the state’s commitment to economic reform in general and privatization in particular, even among those suffering from the transitions underway.
    In a similar fashion, there is a wide-spread belief that democracy is not appropriate for China, at least not at its current level of economic and cultural development. This, of course, is the CCP’s contention, and it is not challenged by most Chinese. It is challenged by many intellectuals and dissidents, but their calls for quick and immediate democratization are opposed not only by the regime but also by most of society. Part of this is the lingering anti-rural bias – so long as most Chinese live in the countryside, urban residents are unlikely to support a one-person, one-vote form of democracy. Under these conditions, the CCP does not face strong societal pressure for democratization. Lacking an alternative political system that is both preferable and viable, the status quo seems secure for the near future.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    I think the NPP committee completely misses the boat on what is going on in China.
    I suspect it's not so much they miss the boat as they want immediate changes. And often that demand comes along with a callous carelessness of the consequences of changes that came too quickly. But maybe the consequences are exactly what some people wanted to see...
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101015/...el_peace_prize

    Many of Liu's friends have been detained. Ding Zilin, a founder of Tiananmen Mothers, has disappeared.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guo Xiang View Post
    I suspect it's not so much they miss the boat as they want immediate changes. And often that demand comes along with a callous carelessness of the consequences of changes that came too quickly. But maybe the consequences are exactly what some people wanted to see...
    Given the current Nationalistic fervor amongst the vast majority of Han Chinese in Mainland China and apparently yourself, how do you think or see political reforms unbalancing the harmony of the PRC?

    Without prodding from others, the Communist Chinese Party are perfectly willing to maintain the status quo, not because having political reform will cause chaos, but because they want to maintain their monopoly on power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    Given the current Nationalistic fervor amongst the vast majority of Han Chinese in Mainland China and apparently yourself, how do you think or see political reforms unbalancing the harmony of the PRC?

    Without prodding from others, the Communist Chinese Party are perfectly willing to maintain the status quo, not because having political reform will cause chaos, but because they want to maintain their monopoly on power.
    Except there are those who do wish for political reform, and some of them are part of the ruling communist party. Their voice may not be too loud right now, and the western media will rarely mention them because:

    1. They do not internationalize their issues
    2. They agree with CCP (and many Chinese) on variety of China's core issues, such as Currency, Sovereignty (Tibet, Taiwan), etc. Which means west will not like them very much.
    3. They do not advocate immediate drastic change, but gradual changes, lead by Chinese for Chinese.

    The minute any of them internationalize their issues or let them become influenced (or a tool) by foreign entities, they lose all sympathies by most Chinese people. Do you honestly expect Chinese people to support Liu with his colonization comments?

    Here's an analogy for you. Lets say your roof is leaking. You know your roof is leaking and it needs to be fixed sometimes in the future before damage become permanent. Would you trust your neighbor that had a history of screwing you (and others) over when convenient? the same neighbor who is right now, trying to get your house re-zoned so you lose a big chunk of your property (Tibet) to weaken you? the same one that is blaming all his own economic problem on you?

    No, you will trust the guy who while not fixing the roof right now, was able to get your house livable. They are not perfect, but the modern CCP has concrete results that benefit hundreds of millions of Chinese people on their side, whereas the west has history of trying to screw China and other nations over (when it is to their benefit to do so) using this kind of excuses.

    The other thing is, instead of looking at rhetoric and propaganda, one can just look at recent history. The prosperous Asian economies. Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore, what do their development history all have in common? they all started very centralized if not outright authoritarian, and major political reform only came after economy, urbanization, and education has reached a certain level.

    Reversely, you have Russia and India. The first tried to perform drastic changes and look how it turned out. The second one, while started out in a far better position 50 years ago, is now trailing China in all area of development. Although I'm sure US would love it if China imploded like Russia or end up not capable of challenging them like India.

    The world is not black and white, democracy is not some magic bean that make everything all better. Chinese people are not stupid, they look at sum of the results and the modern CCP just simply have done a lot more than the so called "human right" champions China bashers, whom most are doing it either:

    1. To strengthen their own cause and interests and/or weaken China using "human right/democracy/<insert catchphrase of the day>" as a convenient excuse.
    2. To feel morally Superior for their own ego, domestic political, or monetary gains.

    Now, you can put yourself in Chinese people's shoes (or talk to them, either works), or you can keep believing they are all just brainwashed sheeps who has the common sense to choose proven propserity over empty words and unknown future.

    PS. from my personal experience of reading news from both China and the West, IMO when it comes to brainwashing, propaganda, and Spin, the western media is far, far better at it. China seriously need to improve in that area if they wish to compete on a global scale.
    Last edited by Dimeron; 10-15-10 at 02:44 PM.

  11. #31
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    My favorite PRC brainwashing is the vast numerous times that I see Chinese people claim to not want anything Western with a special emphasis on Democracy. Uh, well. If you don't want anything Western, shouldn't the Communist Party give up their name? Marx and Engels were Westerners. Capitalism and free markets is also a Western concept (Confucianism didn't look too fondly on the merchant classes). Shouldn't the Chinese give that up too? It's pretty laughable when I hear Mainlanders rail against the Western way when they have been living it for at least 60 to 99 years.

    You make good points, Dimeron. But it's becoming common opinion that the PRC's economic growth will soon come to it's limit without a true liberalization of their economy which can only happen with more political reforms. Not necessarily Democracy, but certainly more free speech/freedom of information.

  12. #32
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    I think that just about every Chinese person under 30 also don't realize how much the China of today owes to the Tiananmen Square protesters; those protests were a wake up call to the CPC that they needed to speed up reforms to give a better life to the average Chinese person.
    Huh? I thought the protest actually slowed down the reform, since it's well known that the advocates of reform (including Chief Reform Officer Xiaoping himself) were defeated by the conservative hardliners during that event, and it was a big alert to the government to create more control to make sure nothing like this happens again.

    If I'm not mistaking, what the protesters mainly asked for was more freedom/democracy. Does China today have much more freedom than before the protest?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROI View Post
    I think the NPP committee completely misses the boat on what is going on in China.

    The following article presents a more balanced view.

    http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/Dickson.pdf

    Not so much as miss the boat, but probably it was catching a different boat.

    Was reading the Financial Times and it seems to take the position that the committee was recognizing Liu's accomplishments but at the same time it was sticking it to the developed democratic countries (read United States and Europe).

    Their view was that it was the committee's way of telling the democratic nations that if you're going to continue to stand on the moral high ground, you can not continue to trade as freely with the devil, so to speak.

    Which made sense, before China attained economic status, human rights was a major issue in diplomatic trade relations. But as China start growing to be an economic powerhouse, human rights fell to the wayside and all we talk about is the value of the RMB.

    It was the committee's way to recognize Liu's contribution and highlighting the democratic nation's hypocrisy.

    OT: Was reading a post about the life of the poor in China. Can not help but think whether the lofty aspirations of freedom of speech and democracy as superfluous when kids are scavenging for food in dumpsters or working and sleeping in illegal brick kilns.

  14. #34
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suzaku View Post
    OT: Was reading a post about the life of the poor in China. Can not help but think whether the lofty aspirations of freedom of speech and democracy as superfluous when kids are scavenging for food in dumpsters or working and sleeping in illegal brick kilns.
    Think of it this way: freedom of speech and democracy can be very helpful tools in the national struggle against poverty.

    People who must live in perpetual fear of their government are going to have a harder time working to their full potential, which might be necessary to raise themselves from poverty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Think of it this way: freedom of speech and democracy can be very helpful tools in the national struggle against poverty.

    People who must live in perpetual fear of their government are going to have a harder time working to their full potential, which might be necessary to raise themselves from poverty.
    Could be a passing sentiment on my part. But I feel that these kids are being persecuted by life, not the government.

    I have been raised with the gospels of life, liberty, and justice for all; but, I find it difficult to look the kid in the eye and tell him that his life will be better if he had freedom of speech.


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  16. #36
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suzaku View Post
    Could be a passing sentiment on my part. But I feel that these kids are being persecuted by life, not the government.

    I have been raised with the gospels of life, liberty, and justice for all; but, I find it difficult to look the kid in the eye and tell him that his life will be better if he had freedom of speech.
    He might, because maybe enough people would be able to criticize a government that allowed things to come to this, and maybe take concrete steps towards doing something about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    Given the current Nationalistic fervor amongst the vast majority of Han Chinese in Mainland China and apparently yourself, how do you think or see political reforms unbalancing the harmony of the PRC?

    Without prodding from others, the Communist Chinese Party are perfectly willing to maintain the status quo, not because having political reform will cause chaos, but because they want to maintain their monopoly on power.
    What else do you want? The minorities in china already have more right and privilege than majority han chinese.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimeron View Post
    Except there are those who do wish for political reform, and some of them are part of the ruling communist party. Their voice may not be too loud right now, and the western media will rarely mention them because:

    1. They do not internationalize their issues
    2. They agree with CCP (and many Chinese) on variety of China's core issues, such as Currency, Sovereignty (Tibet, Taiwan), etc. Which means west will not like them very much.
    3. They do not advocate immediate drastic change, but gradual changes, lead by Chinese for Chinese.

    The minute any of them internationalize their issues or let them become influenced (or a tool) by foreign entities, they lose all sympathies by most Chinese people. Do you honestly expect Chinese people to support Liu with his colonization comments?

    Here's an analogy for you. Lets say your roof is leaking. You know your roof is leaking and it needs to be fixed sometimes in the future before damage become permanent. Would you trust your neighbor that had a history of screwing you (and others) over when convenient? the same neighbor who is right now, trying to get your house re-zoned so you lose a big chunk of your property (Tibet) to weaken you? the same one that is blaming all his own economic problem on you?

    No, you will trust the guy who while not fixing the roof right now, was able to get your house livable. They are not perfect, but the modern CCP has concrete results that benefit hundreds of millions of Chinese people on their side, whereas the west has history of trying to screw China and other nations over (when it is to their benefit to do so) using this kind of excuses.

    The other thing is, instead of looking at rhetoric and propaganda, one can just look at recent history. The prosperous Asian economies. Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore, what do their development history all have in common? they all started very centralized if not outright authoritarian, and major political reform only came after economy, urbanization, and education has reached a certain level.

    Reversely, you have Russia and India. The first tried to perform drastic changes and look how it turned out. The second one, while started out in a far better position 50 years ago, is now trailing China in all area of development. Although I'm sure US would love it if China imploded like Russia or end up not capable of challenging them like India.

    The world is not black and white, democracy is not some magic bean that make everything all better. Chinese people are not stupid, they look at sum of the results and the modern CCP just simply have done a lot more than the so called "human right" champions China bashers, whom most are doing it either:

    1. To strengthen their own cause and interests and/or weaken China using "human right/democracy/<insert catchphrase of the day>" as a convenient excuse.
    2. To feel morally Superior for their own ego, domestic political, or monetary gains.

    Now, you can put yourself in Chinese people's shoes (or talk to them, either works), or you can keep believing they are all just brainwashed sheeps who has the common sense to choose proven propserity over empty words and unknown future.

    PS. from my personal experience of reading news from both China and the West, IMO when it comes to brainwashing, propaganda, and Spin, the western media is far, far better at it. China seriously need to improve in that area if they wish to compete on a global scale.
    Right on Dimeron.
    I agree with China on issue like Taiwan, Tibet, XinJiang but I disagree with china on issue like pollution, currency, and all the unfair rights that favor the minorities (like one child policy). I believe the value of the currency should be decided by the market, not the government.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Think of it this way: freedom of speech and democracy can be very helpful tools in the national struggle against poverty.

    People who must live in perpetual fear of their government are going to have a harder time working to their full potential, which might be necessary to raise themselves from poverty.
    Freedom of speech and democracy won't feed the hunger. There are many countries in africa that are democratic and people die of hunger. India is democratic but it's far behind china.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suzaku View Post
    Could be a passing sentiment on my part. But I feel that these kids are being persecuted by life, not the government.

    I have been raised with the gospels of life, liberty, and justice for all; but, I find it difficult to look the kid in the eye and tell him that his life will be better if he had freedom of speech.
    Agree.
    I blame the parents for the situation, not the government. The parents were the ones that created the kids, not the government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    He might, because maybe enough people would be able to criticize a government that allowed things to come to this, and maybe take concrete steps towards doing something about it.
    How???
    It's the responsibility of the parents to take care of the kids, not the government.
    Last edited by Trien Chieu; 10-20-10 at 02:24 PM.

  18. #38
    Moderator kidd's Avatar
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    I really wonder. Has the committee done a disservice to Liu Xiaobo by naming him the winner? Look at the consequence him and his family is facing now.

    Nobel panel may not hand out Liu's peace prize

    And PRC is throwing tantrum again.
    Last edited by kidd; 11-19-10 at 04:03 AM.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd View Post
    I really wonder. Has the committee done a disservice to Liu Xiaobo by naming him the winner. Look that the the consequence him and his family is facing now.

    Nobel panel may not hand out Liu's peace prize

    And PRC is throwing tantrum again.
    Well there are some consequences the Nobel panel should have considered before openly offending the Chinese government... But they went through with it anyway so they obviously didn't care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd View Post
    I really wonder. Has the committee done a disservice to Liu Xiaobo by naming him the winner? Look at the consequence him and his family is facing now.

    Nobel panel may not hand out Liu's peace prize

    And PRC is throwing tantrum again.
    I would say they care about him and his family's well being as much as Brown cared about Akmal Shaikh.

    A family is small price to pay to poke your political opponent in the eye and to increase your own domestic approval.
    Last edited by Dimeron; 11-19-10 at 12:46 PM.

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