Sunflower manual vs other martial arts

[devilz91]

I guess no one wants to stand up and say that since even the incomplete Sunflower seems more powerful than LOCH Greats, then the complete Sunflower would trump the Greats easily.

I have no issues ranking DG9J and Complete Sunflower as supra-Great arts while ranking Taiji Sword, HIS, Incomplete Sunflower, etc. as Great arts.

[Trien Chieu]

I have no issues ranking DG9J and Complete Sunflower as supra-Great arts while ranking Taiji Sword, HIS, Incomplete Sunflower, etc. as Great arts.

I agree DG9J is the supra-Great arts. However, while Sunflower is a great art, I don't think it's better than Taiji Sword, Nine Yin, Nine Yang, 18 dragon palm, ect. Remember, Sunflower requires big sacrifice.

[devilz91]

--Removed--

[tape]

Both HIS and DG9J have the disadvantage of requiring a weapon. In the case of HIS, it's a specific weapon. It didn't seem as though DG9J could be executed without a sword. And if you look at all the main schools they always had both a weapon skill and a empty handed skill, Begger Sect had Dog Beating Stick and XL18Z, Wudang had Taiji Sword and Fist, even Quanzhen had sword and hand skills, even Yi Yangzhi could be used through crutches. To me, DG9J can't be a supernatural skill because it requires a sword which means it becomes a crutch, without it, you're useless; there's nothing that suggests that DG9J could be executed using anything but a weapon.

Consider it the Dugu school then; he specifically has a no sword stage!

And Feng Qingyang specifically tells Linghu Chong that his fingers can be used a sword, its LHC's inadaqeuacy that makes him unable to do so.

[Trien Chieu]

i have always wondered can feng qing yang beat dong fang bu bai with complete sunflower manual..

I thought both DFBB and YBQ/LPZ have pretty much the complete version of Sunflower manual. Weren't the Huashan couples memorized the manual word by word? Wasn't Lin Yuantu got the complete manual from the Huashan couple as well when he tries to help them put them together?

[yangguo_]

IIRC ybq/lpz's bixie is similar to KHBD. So, I'm not sure how much is lost when bixie was put together. There was a big difference between DFBB and YBQ/LPZ.

[devilz91]

IIRC ybq/lpz's bixie is similar to KHBD. So, I'm not sure how much is lost when bixie was put together. There was a big difference between DFBB and YBQ/LPZ.

That has more to do with DFBB practicing KHBD for more than a decade and his pre-KHBD level being far superior to YBQ/LPZ rather than any difference between KHBD/Bixie.

[Swordsman83]

I thought both DFBB and YBQ/LPZ have pretty much the complete version of Sunflower manual. Weren't the Huashan couples memorized the manual word by word? Wasn't Lin Yuantu got the complete manual from the Huashan couple as well when he tries to help them put them together?

its complete ? i didn't know... ok then can feng qing yang beat dong fang bu bai in your opinion?

[Trien Chieu]

its complete ? i didn't know... ok then can feng qing yang beat dong fang bu bai in your opinion?

Prior to Sunflower Manual, FQY would beat DFBB easily with his Dugu 9 Sword. However, post Sunflower Manual, I think DFBB would win in a fair fight with his incredible speed.

[Swordsman83]

i don't think the hua sect nor ling yuan tu got the complete version..

在令狐冲与少林方证大师、武当冲虚道长密会时，方证与冲虚告诉令狐冲有关《辟邪剑法》的来历：当年福建少林 寺的和尚渡元奉红叶禅师之命前往华山讨回被华山派门人岳肃与蔡子峰偷录的《葵花宝典》残本，但蔡岳二人误以 为渡元禅师曾修习葵花宝典，反而向他请教宝典上的武学疑义，渡元一边以自身武学基础回应，一边暗自记忆听到 的宝典内容。渡元靠过人记忆力，将领悟到的内容写于袈裟之上，即为《辟邪剑法》，后来也不回福建少林寺，还 俗并自称为林远图，开设镖局，名震江湖。
方证大师认为当时岳蔡二人所记的，本已不多，经过这么一转述，不免又打了折扣。但是他们的手录本残缺不全， 本上所录，只怕还不及林远图所悟

[ToastedRossi]

That has more to do with DFBB practicing KHBD for more than a decade and his pre-KHBD level being far superior to YBQ/LPZ rather than any difference between KHBD/Bixie.

It should also be noted that Dongfang Bubai was already considered the most powerful martial artist in the world, and nobody even knew that he had learned from the Sunflower Manual. His martial arts foundation must have already been at an extremely high level compared to Yu Buqun, and so it'd be expected that he would be a lot better. Add the extra years to master the form, and there won't be a need to assume that there's any difference in power between the Sunflower Manual and Bixie Sword.

Since both are inexact copies of the original martial art, the ability of the practitioner to derive useful skills from it should make a lot of difference.

[tape]

Didn't Dongfong Bubai practice KHBD pretty much immediately after he overthrew RWX? I wonder when exactly he got that reputation, because he should not be better than RWX before he overthrew him, and without KHBD, there shouldn't be a reason for him to suddenly overtake RWX's level.

I'd imagine Fang Zheng should still be better than DFBB pre KHBD, but perhaps the general cruelty that the Sun Moon Sect inspired enough fear that it made everyone think their leader should surely be the best. Judging from how they're forced to sing praises across jianghu about their leader, I think his reputation about being the best should be attributed more of a marketing ploy than any actual confirmation that he was the best.

But I do agree that he was probably pretty powerful; perhaps a bit better than Xiang Wentian.

[ToastedRossi]

Didn't Dongfong Bubai practice KHBD pretty much immediately after he overthrew RWX? I wonder when exactly he got that reputation, because he should not be better than RWX before he overthrew him, and without KHBD, there shouldn't be a reason for him to suddenly overtake RWX's level.

The reputation should have come before Ren Woxing was overthrown, or at least before he started learning from the Sunflower Manual. The speed and moves of that martial art are extremely distinctive, and if Dongfang Bubai had used it publicly, there's no way that Xiang Wentian and Ren Yingying wouldn't have known about it. If they had known about it, then they wouldn't have been so surprised at the fight. Again, nobody had the slightest clue that Dongfang Bubai knew the skill and even Ren Woxing had no idea that it was so powerful.

I'd imagine Fang Zheng should still be better than DFBB pre KHBD, but perhaps the general cruelty that the Sun Moon Sect inspired enough fear that it made everyone think their leader should surely be the best. Judging from how they're forced to sing praises across jianghu about their leader, I think his reputation about being the best should be attributed more of a marketing ploy than any actual confirmation that he was the best.

Hatred of the Sun Moon Sect did not automatically confer respect. The (North) Hangshen nickname for Dongfang Bubai was Dongfang Bibai - "certain to lose". The Sword schools most certainly didn't want to admit that he was the best, but they still did so, so there had to be a reason. Moreover, if Dongfang Bubai wasn't as good as his reputation, there's no way that he would have been able to keep his name.

[tape]

Moreover, if Dongfang Bubai wasn't as good as his reputation, there's no way that he would have been able to keep his name.

Isn't that exactly what happened though? He didn't show is face in jianghu for over a decade, but he kept the reputation because of the power of the Sun Moon Sect. Granted he was actually the best fighter in the world, but even if he secretly crippled himself and couldn't fight anymore, his reputation would have stayed the same.

From Ren Woxing's willingness to assassinate DFBB, I doubt DFBB was better than him when he knew him. RWX assumed he could still kill him in a straight fight as he could back then.

[devilz91]

DFBB pre-KHBD was probably the second strongest person in Sun-Moon Cult after Ren Woxing, so he was already very, very good. Even pre-KHBD DFBB could already be troublesome for post-Bixie YBQ and would probably beat post-Bixie LPZ (ignoring any surprise factors). Add in a decade of KHBD training and DFBB becomes insanely strong.

Although, it seems like pre-DG9J FQY was already a worthy opponent to RWX, so he may be able to beat pre-KHBD DFBB, but I find it hard to believe post-DG9J FQY can beat post-KHBD DFBB.

[yangguo_]

how do we know FQY didn't already know DG9J when RWX thought he was worthy?

[devilz91]

how do we know FQY didn't already know DG9J when RWX thought he was worthy?

RWX never addressed FQY as knowing DG9J, only that he was an amazing talent from Huashan with renowned sword skills. And when RWX listened to the anecdotes of the Four Friends of Jiangnan he basically thought that LHC's sword skills would have to be even superior to FQY to dominate the way he did. Which implies RWX only fought pre-DG9J FQY who he already considers to be a formidable opponent.

[ToastedRossi]

Isn't that exactly what happened though? He didn't show is face in jianghu for over a decade, but he kept the reputation because of the power of the Sun Moon Sect. Granted he was actually the best fighter in the world, but even if he secretly crippled himself and couldn't fight anymore, his reputation would have stayed the same.

By itself, Dongfang Bubai's name doesn't say much, but given everything else we know about him, it says a lot.

From Ren Woxing's willingness to assassinate DFBB, I doubt DFBB was better than him when he knew him. RWX assumed he could still kill him in a straight fight as he could back then.

Ren Woxing considered Dongfang Bubai the most formidable person in the entire world; both in terms of martial arts and in ability to formulate plans.

how do we know FQY didn't already know DG9J when RWX thought he was worthy?

Giving the timeline, Ren Woxing would certainly known of Feng Qingyang's skill with Dugu 9 Swords. Feng Qingyang retired 25 years before the story, and Ren Woxing wasn't defeated until 12 years before the story. The 9 Swords weren't widely known of, but there are still plenty of knowledgeable martial artists who did know about it. And many of them could recognize it and associated it with Feng Qingyang. Given how informed Ren Woxing was, and his intelligence it's impossible form him to have been ignorant of the 9 Swords.

RWX never addressed FQY as knowing DG9J, only that he was an amazing talent from Huashan with renowned sword skills. And when RWX listened to the anecdotes of the Four Friends of Jiangnan he basically thought that LHC's sword skills would have to be even superior to FQY to dominate the way he did. Which implies RWX only fought pre-DG9J FQY who he already considers to be a formidable opponent.

I doubt that the two ever fought each other. It's more likely that Ren Woxing didn't know details of the 9 Swords.

[devilz91]

Giving the timeline, Ren Woxing would certainly known of Feng Qingyang's skill with Dugu 9 Swords. Feng Qingyang retired 25 years before the story, and Ren Woxing wasn't defeated until 12 years before the story. The 9 Swords weren't widely known of, but there are still plenty of knowledgeable martial artists who did know about it. And many of them could recognize it and associated it with Feng Qingyang. Given how informed Ren Woxing was, and his intelligence it's impossible form him to have been ignorant of the 9 Swords.

Like who? The only person who could point out DG9J by name was Fang Sheng, and that's because he once received a favor from Feng Qingyang, presumably sometime after the latter's retirement. For Chongxu, it wouldn't have been hard to deduct that LHC learned from FQY because there's no other logical explanation as to how he can get so powerful.

I doubt that the two ever fought each other. It's more likely that Ren Woxing didn't know details of the 9 Swords.

I don't see RWX as the kind of person who would praise someone so highly without actually witnessing first hand how good that person is. And some of the things he says seems to suggest they know each other. For example, he says "Feng Qingyang is no ordinary person, only someone like him can understand the essence of my swordplay" which would be awkward to say without actually meeting the guy.

It's more likely that FQY only learned DG9J post-retirement, hence Fang Sheng being the only one able to recognize it by name.

[ChanceEncounter]

DFBB pre-KHBD was probably the second strongest person in Sun-Moon Cult after Ren Woxing, so he was already very, very good. Even pre-KHBD DFBB could already be troublesome for post-Bixie YBQ and would probably beat post-Bixie LPZ (ignoring any surprise factors). Add in a decade of KHBD training and DFBB becomes insanely strong.

Although, it seems like pre-DG9J FQY was already a worthy opponent to RWX, so he may be able to beat pre-KHBD DFBB, but I find it hard to believe post-DG9J FQY can beat post-KHBD DFBB.

I don't think it's out of the question that FQY could possibly beat DFBB. At the bare minimum, he should have been considerably better than LHC, and LHC was at least able to hold off DFBB even when he had no help. He would have eventually lost, but he was good enough at forcing situations of mutual destruction that DFBB couldn't immediately overpower him like he expected. FQY likely would have done the same with even more success even if he couldn't match DFBB's speed.