Sunflower manual vs other martial arts

[ToastedRossi]

I've gone back and read part of the book. While still imprisoned, Ren Woxing didn't think that anyone using Huashan sword techniques could force Hei Bai Zi to only defend and not attack. By implication, Ren Woxing shouldn't know about Dugu 9 Swords.

However, it's also strongly implied that he's never met Feng Qingyang either.

[jadebunny9]

I've gone back and read part of the book. While still imprisoned, Ren Woxing didn't think that anyone using Huashan sword techniques could force Hei Bai Zi to only defend and not attack. By implication, Ren Woxing shouldn't know about Dugu 9 Swords.

However, it's also strongly implied that he's never met Feng Qingyang either.

How do you make RWX's coveted respect list without having some crazy awesome skill such as DG9J?

[BlackRaven]

I've gone back and read part of the book. While still imprisoned, Ren Woxing didn't think that anyone using Huashan sword techniques could force Hei Bai Zi to only defend and not attack. By implication, Ren Woxing shouldn't know about Dugu 9 Swords.

Indeed, this was said in the novel. Yet how can Feng Qingyang still make the select list of people Ren Woxing respects without knowing DG9J? We can reconcile this by positing that FQY was a top level fighter even before he learned DG9J.

FQY had astounding inner power AND was the best swordsman in Huashan before the fratricidal war.

FQY easily carved deep markings in the stone with his sword, showing that he has great inner power. This feat is great, but not quite as awesome as Xiang Wentian's inner power feat. So perhaps FQY's inner power is slightly lower than Xiang Wentian, maybe FQY's inner power could be comparable to Zuo Lengchan's.

The Huashan Qi faction was so afraid of the Sword faction's FQY that they had to trick him before commencing the battle. We know that the Sword faction had access to high level sword techniques that were lost to the Qi faction and the rest of the 5 mountains Sword Alliance, until they rediscovered them in the cave.

So it's reasonable to assume that FQY's inner power could be comparable to Zuo Lengchan and he had access to superior sword techniques and had better execution.

Without DG9J, naturally FQY would not have true formlessness, but maybe he could be unpredictable with his moves (like RWX). Or be flexible enough to modify them slightly so they would connect seamlessly while revealing less flaws (basic tenet he taught to LHC).

Seeing how Zuo Lengchan made the restricted "not respected" list, if FQY had comparable inner power but superior sword skills, he could still make the respected list.

Even His martial brother from the Sword faction, Feng Buping, was a great fighter. Buping had great inner power and invented a Blizzard sword move that was so powerful that he felt confident in challenging Zuo Lengchan with it. He was definitely superior to all the fighters who witnessed his move, including some of Zuo's younger martial brothers. And when people spoke of FQY, they spoke of him as a legend, a talent who was leaps and bounds beyond his peers in the Sword faction.

Edit: I really like Zuo Lengchan as a character, and he was really a beast. His inner power was so deep that even clashing swords with Zuo made the late story, high inner power LHC tremble. The earlier story LHC had no pain while clashing swords with Wudang's ChongXu. So does FQY using a regular sword to write deep words in stone put his inner power on par with Zuo Lengchan? I don't know. So let's just say FQY's inner power is slightly less than Zuo's, but still great . While FQY's pre-DG9J swordsmanship is definitely superior to Zuo's.

FQY's carving in stone feat reminds me of Xiao YuanShan's using his weapon to carve the story of his innocent family being massacred by the Wulin masters led by Abbot Xuan Ci. All the masters were highly impressed with Xiao's feat.

[ToastedRossi]

How do you make RWX's coveted respect list without having some crazy awesome skill such as DG9J?

It's because you can have fantastic martial arts skills even if your particular martial art of choice isn't particularly amazing. Ren Woxing himself didn't fully master one until he was imprisoned. And even without using it, he could rip a man's heart out with his bare hands.

The Huashan Qi faction was so afraid of the Sword faction's FQY that they had to trick him before commencing the battle. We know that the Sword faction had access to high level sword techniques that were lost to the Qi faction and the rest of the 5 mountains Sword Alliance, until they rediscovered them in the cave.

Technically, Feng Qingyang didn't know the techniques drawn on the cave walls - those had truly been lost. He would have known everything Feng Buping knew though, and probably more. Feng Qingyang knew enough and was skillful enough for Ren Woxing to admit himself being weaker with a sword.

Edit: I really like Zuo Lengchan as a character, and he was really a beast. His inner power was so deep that even clashing swords with Zuo made the late story, high inner power LHC tremble. The earlier story LHC had no pain while clashing swords with Wudang's ChongXu. So does FQY using a regular sword to write deep words in stone put his inner power on par with Zuo Lengchan? I don't know. So let's just say FQY's inner power is slightly less than Zuo's, but still great . While FQY's pre-DG9J swordsmanship is definitely superior to Zuo's.

Zuo Lengchan was such a fantastic character in the novel. He only showed up three times, but the effects of his actions could be felt all over the place. He was set up to be the main villain from the beginning, just to have everything thrown into disorder when he lost to Yue Buqun.

[Doc Kwok]

Technically, Feng Qingyang didn't know the techniques drawn on the cave walls - those had truly been lost. He would have known everything Feng Buping knew though, and probably more. Feng Qingyang knew enough and was skillful enough for Ren Woxing to admit himself being weaker with a sword.

FQY was a generation above FBP, and should have been around for the attack of the Sun-Moon cult elders. Indeed, in the first edition of the story, he was personally responsible for killing them all. Even if he had not yet learnt all the Hua Shan techniques at the time, he still would have seen or heard of them.

[ChronoReverse]

Without DG9J, naturally FQY would not have true formlessness, but maybe he could be unpredictable with his moves (like RWX). Or be flexible enough to modify them slightly so they would connect seamlessly while revealing less flaws (basic tenet he taught to LHC).

You don't need to know DG9J to be formless. You can in fact move from Huashan sword arts to formlessness as you gain experience and insight.


But a formless master with DG9J as the base would be better than the same formless master who only had Huashan sword arts as the base.

Edit: I really like Zuo Lengchan as a character, and he was really a beast. His inner power was so deep that even clashing swords with Zuo made the late story, high inner power LHC tremble. The earlier story LHC had no pain while clashing swords with Wudang's ChongXu.

Actually, the clashes with CX numbed LHC's arms. Besides, LHC was most concerned about the icyness of ZLC's internal energy. Not that ZLC's internal energy wasn't probably comparable to CX's, I'm just pointing out that it's not definitive.

[Doc Kwok]

Actually, the clashes with CX numbed LHC's arms. Besides, LHC was most concerned about the icyness of ZLC's internal energy. Not that ZLC's internal energy wasn't probably comparable to CX's, I'm just pointing out that it's not definitive.

When LHC managed to see again in the cave, he almost instantly destroyed ZLC effortlessly. While the blinded ZLC was undoubtedly much weaker than before, I don't think LHC would have had too much trouble defeating him even then, provided that he avoids direct clashes (which he usually manages)...

[BlackRaven]

Actually, the clashes with CX numbed LHC's arms. Besides, LHC was most concerned about the icyness of ZLC's internal energy. Not that ZLC's internal energy wasn't probably comparable to CX's, I'm just pointing out that it's not definitive.

You are correct, Chong Xu also made LHC's arm go numb when they clashed swords.

Linghu Chong felt that the old man's sword was laced with internal energy which made his right hand shook. Linghu Chong could also feel needles and pins on his arm because of the impact.

About ZLC, he clashed swords twice with LHC. It's true that during the second clash, ZLC used his cold energy to make LHC uncomfortable, as shown here:

A sword attacked and with a clashing sound, both swords had again collided. Linghu Chong was shaken and he felt a little internal energy coming from the sword. His whole body involuntarily shook. Suddenly he remembered of the day when Ren Woxing was at Shaolin Temple using his 'Art of Essence Absorbing' to suck Zuo Lengchan's internal energy. Who could've known that Zuo Lengchan's internal energy would be so formidable that in just a short time, Ren Woxing was frozen. This time he was doing the same strategy again and to avoid falling into his trap, Linghu Chong quickly pushed the internal energy out but suddenly he felt a tremendous energy coming back, and his fingers involuntarily loosened and his sword flew out of his hand.

However, during the first sword clash, there was no mention of ZLC injecting any cold inner power. Zuo's raw inner power was enough to almost knock LHC's sword out in the first clash.

Linghu Chong's right hand ached and his long sword was nearly knocked out of his hand. He knew the person who had attacked was Zuo Lengchan himself.

I think the inner power description of Chong Xu and ZLC's sword clashes with LHC are both impressive. But LHC fought Chong Xu earlier on, so his inner power had not peaked yet.

LHC's battle with ZLC occurred near the end of the novel, after LHC has drained more people to increase his inner power.

It's also of note that when Fangzheng roared towards the Peach Valley 6 fairies direction and knocked them out, he indirectly hit Chong Xu, which was enough to make Chong Xu feel dizzy. That incident made me rank Chong Xu's inner power down a bit.

So personally, I would give a slight nod to ZLC in the inner power department. Although in a straight fight, it's uncertain who would win. Chong Xu seems to have superior swordsmanship.

[BlackRaven]

When LHC managed to see again in the cave, he almost instantly destroyed ZLC effortlessly. While the blinded ZLC was undoubtedly much weaker than before, I don't think LHC would have had too much trouble defeating him even then, provided that he avoids direct clashes (which he usually manages)...

At the meeting to decide who would lead the Five mountain sword schools, Zuo Lengchan was confident that he could beat LHC by using unarmed combat to disarm him, since LHC is inexperienced against hand to hand combat. So I think ZLC with vision would make a dangerous adversary even for LHC.

Also, even if they were to fight with swords, even if ZLC cannot win, he can at least block. Even though he was chained, RWX could still block LHC's relentless swordplay. During each block, the swords still make contact, and ZLC can have a chance to force his cold inner energy into LHC to disarm him this way.

[BlackRaven]

FQY was a generation above FBP, and should have been around for the attack of the Sun-Moon cult elders. Indeed, in the first edition of the story, he was personally responsible for killing them all. Even if he had not yet learnt all the Hua Shan techniques at the time, he still would have seen or heard of them.

Interesting. The first edition FQY was truly an epic figure. Jin Yong should have written a novel about him FQY must have been very young at the time of the Sun Moon attack, killing all 10 elders by himself is an astonishing feat.

This makes me realize that Smiling Proud Wanderer did not get its story changed as much throughout the editions. Maybe Jin Yong was satisfied with the story overall?

The modification to FQY's feats was important, but not as crucial as the very strange changes to the romantic endings of Demi-Gods Semi-Devils and Heaven Sword Dragon Sabre.

And I heard stories that in the serialized version of Return of the Condor, Yang Guo is never reunited with Xiao Longnu. But this ending was changed to something more palatable to the masses. Talk about a complete 180.

[Doc Kwok]

At the meeting to decide who would lead the Five mountain sword schools, Zuo Lengchan was confident that he could beat LHC by using unarmed combat to disarm him, since LHC is inexperienced against hand to hand combat. So I think ZLC with vision would make a dangerous adversary even for LHC.

If you are talking about the Hengshan succession ceremony, they were planning to swarm him and take him down bare-handed while LHC was still unarmed during the ceremony. As far as I recall, there were no such plans during the meeting about the unification.

Also, even if they were to fight with swords, even if ZLC cannot win, he can at least block. Even though he was chained, RWX could still block LHC's relentless swordplay. During each block, the swords still make contact, and ZLC can have a chance to force his cold inner energy into LHC to disarm him this way.

Nope, the novel explicitly pointed out that their swords did not clash. RWX was giving it his all, with his inner energy fully extended into his sword such that it sounded like a thunderstorm - with that sort of power disparity, a direct clash would instantly disarm LHC (if not injure or outright kill him).

Furthermore, ZLC was defending like crazy towards the end - LHC still got through it with no difficulty.

[tape]

I am surprised more people did not use a strike similar to the one ZLC used as a last ditch effort against Yue Buqun -- that is charging up all your inner strength and launching the sword directly at the person. As ingenious as Dugu 9 Jian is, I don't see a way for him to get out of the way in time with his crippled self.

[BlackRaven]

If you are talking about the Hengshan succession ceremony, they were planning to swarm him and take him down bare-handed while LHC was still unarmed during the ceremony. As far as I recall, there were no such plans during the meeting about the unification.

In the novel, before he was blinded, Zuo Lengchan indeed believed that he could defeat Linghu Chong by using unarmed combat against him, due to Linghu's inexperience with this type of fighting.

Found in chapter 34, during the meeting to decide the merger of the Five Mountain Sword schools:

After Zuo Lengchan personally saw Yue Buqun fighting against Linghu Chong at the Shaolin temple, he became even more at ease. Even though Yue Buqun's sword art was wonderful, he was still not Zuo Lengchan's match. When Yue Buqun kicked Linghu Chong, he even got his right leg broken. That showed his internal energy cultivation was just mediocre. But as for this little kid Linghu Chong, he seemed to have suddenly advanced greatly in his sword art, which was really beyond his expectation. But he couldn't always be afraid of this loafer, and just give up this big matter that he had been planning for tens of years already. Moreover, Linghu Chong's strong point was only in his swordplay, while his barehand martial art was very ordinary. If they were to fight for real and he couldn't win by his swordplay, then he would use his fist and palm at the same time and he could immediately take Linghu Chong's life then.

posted by Doc Kwok
Nope, the novel explicitly pointed out that their swords did not clash. RWX was giving it his all, with his inner energy fully extended into his sword such that it sounded like a thunderstorm - with that sort of power disparity, a direct clash would instantly disarm LHC (if not injure or outright kill him).

You're correct. For the first 40 moves, the novel specifies that the swords did not touch each other, and the reasons you listed are sound.

I remembered this part so I thought the swords made contact near the end of the fight:

chapter 20:

The man suddenly swung his sword in a block and yelled out loud, “Little friend, who on earth taught you your sword art? I don’t think Reverend Feng has that capability.”

Near the end of the fight, LHC gained the upper hand and was forcing RWX to swing his sword in a block, whether the swords actually connected, it's uncertain. Maybe they connected but RWX preferred to focus his inner power for the big surprise roar to knock out the 4 Playfellows, or maybe LHC just attacked elsewhere, avoid the sword, trying to find a weak point to hit RWX's body. But the reasons you listed to explain that their swords did not meet are very sound so I can accept that LHC just avoided the block to try and hit elsewhere.

posted by Doc Kwok
Furthermore, ZLC was defending like crazy towards the end - LHC still got through it with no difficulty.

That was a blind Zuo Lengchan, who of course stood no chance. Yet even after LHC found a source of light, the blind ZLC still managed to block LHC's sword 3 times, and each time he transferred cold energy through the sword and made LHC's arm ache. My point is that by merely blocking, Zuo Lengchan has the opportunity to use his cold inner power to weaken LHC and eventually disarm him. The following passage from the novel clearly describes sword blocks from ZLC and the subsequent transfer of cold energy.

Zuo Lengchan and Lin Pingzhi didn't understand what was going on, they both asked, "Is there a torch?" Their voices were frightened.

"That's right!" Linghu Chong shouted as he attacked Zuo Lengchan three times. Zuo Lengchan distinguished the incoming attack from the wind and managed to block the three attacks, but Linghu Chong felt his arm was aching. It was the cold energy coming from the sword again. After a tick, everything was still as he held his sword motionless. Zuo Lengchan couldn't hear the wind from his sword and he was getting anxious. He vigorously slashed his sword to protect the fatal points around his body.

Obviously, a Zuo Lengchan with vision would defend much more easily and make it a prolonged fight. In a prolonged fight, even a sword fight, Zuo Lengchan could still stand a chance by using his internal energy to eventually weaken LHC and knock his sword away.

My point still stands that Zuo Lengchan with vision is a dangerous foe for LHC. He could use fists and palms to take advantage of LHC's weakness, or use his cold inner power to disarm LHC in a prolonged sword fight.

[tape]

ZLC judging LHC's swordsplay from the fight at Shaolin should be an incorrect assessment. He only used "real moves" unconsciously for half a second and disarmed Yue Buqun. Otherwise, he was just running around and not displaying his true abilities.

If Chongxu did not think he could defeat LHC, and surely he would have thought to try barehanded play, I don't think ZLC should stand a much better chance.

[shortsight]

... Also, even if they were to fight with swords, even if ZLC cannot win, he can at least block. Even though he was chained, RWX could still block LHC's relentless swordplay. During each block, the swords still make contact, and ZLC can have a chance to force his cold inner energy into LHC to disarm him this way.

While ZLC could match RWX in bare handed fight and surprise him with his polar ice trick, ZLC is no match to RWX sword skills. LHC vs RWX was DG9J vs formless and genius on the spot moves. LHC vs ZLC with swords is DG9J vs one of the 5 mountain sword skills, which is a watered down from their elders. ZLC didn't even know his own school lost sword skills, superior to what he know and still below what DG9J is. ZLC got no chance vs LHC DG9J.

[BlackRaven]

While ZLC could match RWX in bare handed fight and surprise him with his polar ice trick, ZLC is no match to RWX sword skills. LHC vs RWX was DG9J vs formless and genius on the spot moves. LHC vs ZLC with swords is DG9J vs one of the 5 mountain sword skills, which is a watered down from their elders. ZLC didn't even know his own school lost sword skills, superior to what he know and still below what DG9J is. ZLC got no chance vs LHC DG9J.

Good analysis, and I agree that ZLC does not have high enough sword skills to slash and cut LHC.

However, if all ZLC has to do is block and transfer his cold inner power through the swords, then I believe ZLC has a chance. It's a lot easier to block than to seize the initiative and attack.

[BlackRaven]

ZLC judging LHC's swordsplay from the fight at Shaolin should be an incorrect assessment. He only used "real moves" unconsciously for half a second and disarmed Yue Buqun. Otherwise, he was just running around and not displaying his true abilities.

If Chongxu did not think he could defeat LHC, and surely he would have thought to try barehanded play, I don't think ZLC should stand a much better chance.

This begs the question, when Chong Xu challenged Xiang Wentian, would he have used Taichi Sword or hand to hand combat? I don't think Xiang brought the whip, his preferred weapon, with him. Anyway, it's a fun fight either way. Maybe in a 4th edition?

It's also possible that as an respected Wulin elder, Chong Xu wanted to do the honorable thing and not press another fight upon someone 2 generations below him after he clearly lost the first time. This type of thinking was prevalent during the fights to decide the Five Mountains leader. Mo Da had to retreat in the face of Yue Lingshan's secret Hengshan moves, and it was said that had she cupped her hands and said: "Thank you for your leniency elder Mo." Mo Da would have been forced to admit defeat, even though he could have won with his next attack. And that was a fight with the fate of his school on the line.

ZLC still heard a lot of reports on LHC's swordplay from his martial brothers who fought him directly, as well as his acolytes who saw LHC fight Feng Buping. They would have given him a detailed report on Feng's Blizzard move and LHC's counterattacks.

ZLC acknowledged that LHC had better swordsmanship than him, thus his plan to use hand to hand against him. The point is that no matter if it's Fang Zheng vs RWX or ZLC vs RWX, LHC has shown to be clueless when it comes to high level hand and fists techniques. This was clear during the fights at Shaolin. LHC can't spot weaknesses when an high level unarmed specialist fights, thus ZLC's fist and palm plan definitely has merit.

[tape]

I personally find it a bit hard to judge who LHC can actually "beat" in a fight. A lot of his fights are contrived and rely on the enemies being surprised or are stubbornly using a sword whether it's their ego or some sort of prior agreement.

Like I mentioned before, what's to stop ZLC from just shooting his sword at LHC at full power? What move does Dugu 9 Jian have to counter that? There is an anti-missile stance, but I doubt it can do much against a sword shot out from someone who has 2-3x more inner strength and martial arts understanding than you.

It was already shown when he didn't have access to his inner strength that the anti missile stance is completely useless since it would just knock his sword away and continue, so if someone has sufficient inner strength, it should be the same thing.

Chongxu could just defend himself with Taiqi Sword while shooting blasts of qi or rocks or pebbles or whatever and LHC probably can't do anything against it. Dugu 9 Jian was magnificent against lower level opponents whom I can understand to have rigid martial arts understanding and only use swords and stances that they know, but I expect the higher tier fighters to be more adaptive and take advantage of the weakness of the person they are fighting.

I was a strong proponent of SPW fighters being very strong and on par with the Greats, but thinking back on it, a lot of their decisions during actual fights seem quite rigid and indicative of not having the adaptability that the elite fighters in other novels have. RWX generally made impressive decisions, but he was created to be the most genius character in the novel.

[tape]

I can imagine any of the Greats in LOCH handling LHC without much trouble after observing the sword technique and praising it as magnificent. Ouyang Feng and Hong Qigong just blast him away with palms, Huang Yaoshi shoots three streams of unstoppable pebbles at him, and Yideng just finger blasting him away from a safe distance. I'd imagine Zhang Sanfeng would marvel at the technique and just thrust his sword out full of energy, realizing that his far superior energy will allow his sword to reach his target first and has no real weakness.

Dugu 9 Jian, like most martial arts, should not work against people with far superior energy ! It can surely make up a significant difference, but not of the levels we've seen if the other fighter doesn't fight like a dummy.

[ChronoReverse]

To be fair, that's only if you have the luxury of stepping back out of the sword attacks. LHC often finished his opponents very quickly.


Besides the terrible incident with the multiple assassins (seriously, that one is beyond stupid when you actually think about it) most of the other high-level fights LHC got into after he lost his internal energy and before he acquired a very high internal energy were situations where the alternative options aren't applicable (either not possible or wasn't something that would salvage the situation).

For example, against RWX and all the Playfellows, they weren't fighting to the death and deliberately avoiding the use of brute force internal energy (and thus RWX's internal energy laughing was more than sufficient to knock LHC out).

Against the Sword-Branch Huashan master, it was a duel of swords. If LHC had lost against a bare-handed skill, it really doesn't change how a sword branch master failed against a qi branch apprentice in technique.

The Great Yin-Yang Palms master lost to LHC up close where LHC could stab his palms directly, but LHC had already lost when the remote palm attack hit him full force. It's just that despite having no internal energy of his own, the runaway streams inside him were actually very strong and protected him.

The fight against Fang Sheng was another one where LHC didn't entirely win. FS had held back his palm power after all.


So I don't think it really is inconsistent. By the time LHC was fighting people of YBQ level and up in serious battle, he already had very high internal energy.