Why didn't Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung punish Chow Bak Tung more harshly?

[Ken Cheng]

After Chow Bak Tung had his affair with Ying Goo in Dali, his martial senior Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung let him off the hook pretty easily. Chow screwed up pretty badly - not just having an affair with a married woman, but a *princess* of Dali and the wife of a wulin Great. That was probably death penalty stuff according to the rules of the time.

Emperor Deun Chi Hing forgave Chow Bak Tung, but I'm surprised that Wong Chung Yeung also went easy on him. Chow's act disgraced Wong and the Cheun Jen Sect. Even if Wong decided to be merciful and spare Chow's life, he would *at least* need to kick Chow out of the Cheun Jen Sect, wouldn't he? Not only did Wong Chung Yeung not do that, but he allowed Chow Bak Tung to keep his senior position in the Cheun Jen Sect (second in rank only Wong Chung Yeung himself) and even gave Chow responsibility for the 9 Yum Jen Ging (stupid idea, if you ask me).

[PJ]

According to the novel, WCY would have killed ZBT if the latter was a sensible person. But since Zhou wasn't a sensible person, then WCY just let him off the hook.

Yeah, kinda stupid to let idiots running around freely.

[Ken Cheng]

According to the novel, WCY would have killed ZBT if the latter was a sensible person. But since Zhou wasn't a sensible person, then WCY just let him off the hook.

Yeah, kinda stupid to let idiots running around freely.

And to endow him with the responsibility of great power (the 9 Yum Jen Ging); Uncle Ben would not have approved.

I don't buy Wong Chung Yeung's reasoning. If Chow Bak Tung is "sensible" enough to be second-in-command of the Cheun Jen Sect and serve as the designated custodian of the 9 Yum Jen Ging after Wong Chung Yeung's death, then he sure as hell better be sensible enough to take responsibility for knocking up a king's wife.

Reasoning like this *almost* makes me understand why Lam Chiu Ying thought Wong was kind of an idiot.

[missouri.slim]

And to endow him with the responsibility of great power (the 9 Yum Jen Ging); Uncle Ben would not have approved.

Sometimes when a resposibility is thrust upon us, the ability to handle it can come as part of the package. Understanding the shame that would come with failure can be enough to straighten out a lot of people. It can blow up in your face sometimes, but if it works the rewards can be pretty great.

I believe that is a good part of what Uncle Ben was saying to Peter, anyway-- if you have the power you had better have the heart and the head to go with it. He admonished Peter, but I think he wouldn't have bothered if he didn't have faith that Peter could make something good out of his situation. But I am not Stan Lee, so I can't know that for sure.

That said, I would not have done all this for ZBT, but I am not WCY. Maybe he knew more than I. He probably did; I don't even have my own sect.

[tape]

And to endow him with the responsibility of great power (the 9 Yum Jen Ging); Uncle Ben would not have approved.

I don't buy Wong Chung Yeung's reasoning. If Chow Bak Tung is "sensible" enough to be second-in-command of the Cheun Jen Sect and serve as the designated custodian of the 9 Yum Jen Ging after Wong Chung Yeung's death, then he sure as hell better be sensible enough to take responsibility for knocking up a king's wife.

Reasoning like this *almost* makes me understand why Lam Chiu Ying thought Wong was kind of an idiot.

I think ZBT only has the respect of the QZ elders because he is of a higher generation, he does not have any real authority on QZ matters. As for being the custodian of the 9 Yin, he was the only one who was even remotely capable of doing so. Any of the other QZ elders probably couldn't even defend themselves from a combined Jin flunkie assault unless they traveled day and night in their whole pack of 7.

Iirc, WCY was willing to punish ZBT in whatever way Yideng chose to, death included. Yideng chose to spare him due to WCY's friendship, so WCY really didn't pursue it. It's not like ZBT was deeply rooted to the QZ sect anyway, I don't think he was even a Taoist or had any real responsibilities to QZ except for his personal respect for WCY.

Besides, WCY was arrogant and does not show the best judgment at times anyway. It's not strange for him to have a double standard for someone he cares about. He could have given 9 Yin to Hong Qigong or Yideng, both of whom he knew were good men and would have put it to better use than burying it. He wanted to ensure the success of his Quanzhen sect, and possibly to cement himself as the best martial artist the world has known for quite some time.

I think for a character with so many exposed flaw to be so revered, his old Taoist image seriously has something to do with it. Old powerful Taoists just command respect !

[Ken Cheng]

I think ZBT only has the respect of the QZ elders because he is of a higher generation, he does not have any real authority on QZ matters. As for being the custodian of the 9 Yin, he was the only one who was even remotely capable of doing so. Any of the other QZ elders probably couldn't even defend themselves from a combined Jin flunkie assault unless they traveled day and night in their whole pack of 7.

Iirc, WCY was willing to punish ZBT in whatever way Yideng chose to, death included. Yideng chose to spare him due to WCY's friendship, so WCY really didn't pursue it. It's not like ZBT was deeply rooted to the QZ sect anyway, I don't think he was even a Taoist or had any real responsibilities to QZ except for his personal respect for WCY.

Besides, WCY was arrogant and does not show the best judgment at times anyway. It's not strange for him to have a double standard for someone he cares about. He could have given 9 Yin to Hong Qigong or Yideng, both of whom he knew were good men and would have put it to better use than burying it. He wanted to ensure the success of his Quanzhen sect, and possibly to cement himself as the best martial artist the world has known for quite some time.

I think for a character with so many exposed flaw to be so revered, his old Taoist image seriously has something to do with it. Old powerful Taoists just command respect !

Wong Chung Yeung specifically forbid all members of his sect to learn the 9 Yum Jen Ging, so I doubt his motive was a selfish desire to keep it for his own sect. On the other hand, yeah, Hung 7 Gung or Deun Chi Hing/1 Deng would have been much more suitable custodians for the 9 Yum Jen Ging than Chow Bak Tung. The only backlash I see to that, however, is that East Heretic Wong Yerk See and West Poison Au Yeung Fung would likely complain, "Hey, what about us?!" (although we all know why those two wouldn't be suitable custodians of the legacy either).

Maybe Wong Chung Yeung should have just given it to his monk friend (the one who eventually created the 9 Yeung Jen Ging).

[tape]

Wong Chung Yeung specifically forbid all members of his sect to learn the 9 Yum Jen Ging, so I doubt his motive was a selfish desire to keep it for his own sect. On the other hand, yeah, Hung 7 Gung or Deun Chi Hing/1 Deng would have been much more suitable custodians for the 9 Yum Jen Ging than Chow Bak Tung. The only backlash I see to that, however, is that East Heretic Wong Yerk See and West Poison Au Yeung Fung would likely complain, "Hey, what about us?!" (although we all know why those two wouldn't be suitable custodians of the legacy either).

Maybe Wong Chung Yeung should have just given it to his monk friend (the one who eventually created the 9 Yeung Jen Ging).

I meant more that WCY didn't want his contemporaries to shoot past him in martial arts, even if he was already dead. He wanted to have achieved the highest level of martial arts of the time. That wouldn't be too out of character for him, considering his little feud with LCY and his desire to best her even nearing his death.

As noble as they made out his treatment of the 9 Yin, in the end it was completely selfish. He was the only one to read it even though he had no need for it, he used it to beat his little friend LCY, and his desire was to bury it so nobody else could find it. I forget, but were his words so that a man might serendipitously find it and do good on the world? That's quite silly considering the man could be good or evil, while right now he knew a number of good men and could GUARANTEE it wound up in the hands of someone good and worthy.

[Ken Cheng]

I meant more that WCY didn't want his contemporaries to shoot past him in martial arts, even if he was already dead. He wanted to have achieved the highest level of martial arts of the time. That wouldn't be too out of character for him, considering his little feud with LCY and his desire to best her even nearing his death.

As noble as they made out his treatment of the 9 Yin, in the end it was completely selfish. He was the only one to read it even though he had no need for it, he used it to beat his little friend LCY, and his desire was to bury it so nobody else could find it. I forget, but were his words so that a man might serendipitously find it and do good on the world? That's quite silly considering the man could be good or evil, while right now he knew a number of good men and could GUARANTEE it wound up in the hands of someone good and worthy.

I agree that Wong Chung Yeung's management of the 9 Yum Jen Ging was confused and illogical, but I disagree that it was motivated by selfish reasons. If he had been selfish, there would have been easier ways to act upon that (e.g. personally training in the 9 Yum Jen Ging himself and then, training his disciples in it as well). No point to playing games with it.

Giving it to Chow Bak Tung, however, was the height of folly. The only two worse persons to give it to would have been Au Yeung Fung or Kau Cheen Yan.

[tape]

I agree that Wong Chung Yeung's management of the 9 Yum Jen Ging was confused and illogical, but I disagree that it was motivated by selfish reasons. If he had been selfish, there would have been easier ways to act upon that (e.g. personally training in the 9 Yum Jen Ging himself and then, training his disciples in it as well). No point to playing games with it.

Giving it to Chow Bak Tung, however, was the height of folly. The only two worse persons to give it to would have been Au Yeung Fung or Kau Cheen Yan.

I forget the reasoning as to why he didn't allow his students to study it. He could have transferred the 9 Yin verbally if he was afraid leaving the manual around was dangerous. Was it merely because he didn't want them to be engrossed in martial arts rather than Taoism, despite the fact that he himself was likely so?

He did read the 9 Yin himself though, and incorporated it into his martial arts. He was old enough, and already #1 so training rigorously wouldn't be of much use to him. The LCY incident though proves that he will gladly refer to the 9 Yin for selfish reasons despite barring everyone else from reading it.

[Ken Cheng]

I forget the reasoning as to why he didn't allow his students to study it.

He didn't want to send the wrong message to wulin...that the 9 Yum Jen Ging belonged to the Cheun Jen Sect and they were free to use it to dominate wulin. As Wong Chung Yeung saw it, he was the 9 Yum Jen Ging's custodian, but not its owner. When he died, the manual needed to be passed on to another suitable custodian (but that custodian should not have been Chow Bak Tung).

He could have transferred the 9 Yin verbally if he was afraid leaving the manual around was dangerous. Was it merely because he didn't want them to be engrossed in martial arts rather than Taoism, despite the fact that he himself was likely so?

He didn't say that specifically, I believe, but he did voice such concerns about Yau Chui Gei in particular. Yau Chui Gei was Wong Chung Yeung's favorite student and the one he trusted most with important affairs, but he was concerned that Yau was a tad too hotheaded and militant. That said, Yau would have been a more suitable custodian for the 9 Yum Jen Ging than Chow Bak Tung...if only Yau had the martial arts skill to actually protect it.

Wong Chung Yeung had a huge dilemma with the 9 Yum Jen Ging: those who had the character to take charge of it were too weak to do so; those who were strong enough didn't have the right character. The ideal person that Wong Chung Yeung was looking for was GWOK JING, but Gwok Jing wouldn't be born until several years after Wong had died.

Fortunately, however, almost as if by fate's hand, Gwok Jing became the 9 Yum Jen Ging's next custodian anyway; the manual had found its proper custodian for the next generation.

He did read the 9 Yin himself though, and incorporated it into his martial arts. He was old enough, and already #1 so training rigorously wouldn't be of much use to him. The LCY incident though proves that he will gladly refer to the 9 Yin for selfish reasons despite barring everyone else from reading it.

Wong Chung Yeung read the 9 Yum Jen Ging, understood how it worked, and maybe that had some unintended influence on his own martial arts, but I wouldn't call that actual *training*. He never violated his vow to not use it himself to dominate wulin. What happened with Lam Chiu Ying in the Ancient Tomb didn't show Wong Chung Yeung in the best light, but at the same time, he did not violate his word: no blows were exchanged, and nobody in the outside world ever knew about it until Yeung Gor and Little Dragon Girl inadvertently found out about it (and they weren't going to blab about what they had discovered, so the point is moot).

[tape]

If he didn't carve the counter on the wall and proclaim himself still undefeated, I could see him in a better light, but him doing that just reeks of self righteousness with the treatment of 9 Yin.

There still isn't really a good reason why he didn't hand it to Hong Qigong, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of his quest to protect the 9 Yin. There isn't a better person that could statistically come up to give it to, he got really lucky with Guo Jing being born and achieving what he did.

[Ken Cheng]

If he didn't carve the counter on the wall and proclaim himself still undefeated, I could see him in a better light, but him doing that just reeks of self righteousness with the treatment of 9 Yin.

There still isn't really a good reason why he didn't hand it to Hong Qigong, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of his quest to protect the 9 Yin. There isn't a better person that could statistically come up to give it to, he got really lucky with Guo Jing being born and achieving what he did.

Deun Chi Hing was the best possible choice in terms of overall character, but his retirement and seclusion as 1 Deng took that option off the table (although when you think about it, not really...so Emperor Deun became a monk, but that didn't mean he lost his martial arts ability or his willingness to preserve the future of wulin).

Hung 7 Gung was the *second* best option, but there were a few problems here: Hung 7 Gung's notorious laziness and susceptibility to food temptations. Although I strongly doubt 7 Gung would screw up this responsibility (at the very least, he was a much, much better option than Chow Bak Tung), he *did* have on his record the death of one Beggar's Union member due to food-induced negligence (which is why he became the "9-Fingered Divine Beggar").

One of those two could have been viable, but perhaps that would have unbalanced the delicate relationship among the Greats too much. Hung 7 Gung and 1 Deng were equal to Wong Yerk See and Au Yeung Fung, but not *better* than them as Wong Chung Yeung in his prime had been. That was the main reason that Wong had been its first custodian (because he could defeat any of the other four).

[tape]

Deun Chi Hing was the best possible choice in terms of overall character, but his retirement and seclusion as 1 Deng took that option off the table (although when you think about it, not really...so Emperor Deun became a monk, but that didn't mean he lost his martial arts ability or his willingness to preserve the future of wulin).

Hung 7 Gung was the *second* best option, but there were a few problems here: Hung 7 Gung's notorious laziness and susceptibility to food temptations. Although I strongly doubt 7 Gung would screw up this responsibility (at the very least, he was a much, much better option than Chow Bak Tung), he *did* have on his record the death of one Beggar's Union member due to food-induced negligence (which is why he became the "9-Fingered Divine Beggar").

One of those two could have been viable, but perhaps that would have unbalanced the delicate relationship among the Greats too much. Hung 7 Gung and 1 Deng were equal to Wong Yerk See and Au Yeung Fung, but not *better* than them as Wong Chung Yeung in his prime had been. That was the main reason that Wong had been its first custodian (because he could defeat any of the other four).

I ruled out Emperor Duen because he was after all leader of another country, even if it was a vassal/friendly with Sung, and we know WCY was extremely patriotic at one point in his life.

Despite Qigong's imperfect character, chances are really, really slim that the 9 Yin ends up in the hands of someone more suited. He didn't even instruct ZBT to find a righteous man or anything, he just told him to hold onto it, which knowing ZBT, would mean he would hold onto it forever or until someone took it from him.

Qigong is as righteous, tied with being the best martial artist in the world, and leader of a major sect that has roots in patriotism and chivalry. There is no way that the best possible choice at the time was not to hand it to Qigong, if his intentions were what he claimed. It's simply too risky to hand just bury it and hope for something good to happen. It reminds me of the Heaven Sword/Dragon Sabre, where the odds of that plan succeeding were ridiculously slim, and there were tons of better plans and so much could go wrong with the current one, but it somehow working out and they don't get any flak for it. It was a stupid, stupid move that worked out for them.

[PJ]

Let me just seize this opportunity to reiterate my hatred for OLD GOOFBALL Zhou Botong. Besides the major grief he caused Emperor Duan, he kept exerting his stupid childish ways to mess things up throughout LOCH and ROCH. He directly did more harm than good.

[Dirt]

無爲

action in non-action.

[hyoyatika]

Pride.

Imagine the Dali king being made a cuckold.

Imagine the biggest sect of the wulin having to live with ZBT's affair.

That's probably why WCY kept it hush-hush.

[wkeej]

WCY probably needs ZBT to "succeed" him.

[hyoyatika]

WCY probably needs ZBT to "succeed" him.

Not likely. WCY always knew that ZBT was too playful. Unfortunately, the Quanzhen 7 wasn't ready yet. I think in a way you're right that WCY needed to keep ZBT alive but not to succeed him, rather to help the Quanzhen 7.