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Thread: Zhang Wuji and ROCH end greats

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    What I mean is it's true Wuji could quickly learn Tai Chi and Persian Holy Tablet Martial Arts but only if he get "guide" but without guidelines he couldn't "instantly" learn/mastered these skills so the theory that Wuji could mastered every skills without guidelines is "wrong"..
    All he has to do is observe and maybe exchange a few strokes with the opponent. It worked against the Shaolin monk at Gwong Ming Peak and against Chiu Mun's flunkies at Mt. Mo Dong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    What I mean is it's true Wuji could quickly learn Tai Chi and Persian Holy Tablet Martial Arts but only if he get "guide" but without guidelines he couldn't "instantly" learn/mastered these skills so the theory that Wuji could mastered every skills without guidelines is "wrong"..
    Well i agree that main characters should not be so genius that he could learn in just seconds.

    I'm just see that there are a lot of inconsistency there. If writer is consistent when wuji could learn tiger claw shaolin (it is real powerful kungfu in real world) in short time, he should quickly learn others instantly, then the story will be boring and his purpose to make the wuji wishy washy not achieved.

    Maybe that's why the writer make 18 dragon subduing palms as lost kungfu in revised novel, not even there together with 9yin. I'm just remember that 18 palms is there together with 9yin in one of old tv adaptation (if i'm not wrong) and just curious no one leran it at the end of the story

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    Quote Originally Posted by St3v3 View Post
    Well i agree that main characters should not be so genius that he could learn in just seconds.

    I'm just see that there are a lot of inconsistency there. If writer is consistent when wuji could learn tiger claw shaolin (it is real powerful kungfu in real world) in short time, he should quickly learn others instantly, then the story will be boring and his purpose to make the wuji wishy washy not achieved.

    Maybe that's why the writer make 18 dragon subduing palms as lost kungfu in revised novel, not even there together with 9yin. I'm just remember that 18 palms is there together with 9yin in one of old tv adaptation (if i'm not wrong) and just curious no one leran it at the end of the story
    I think isn't inconsistency at all but depends on the type of martial arts which Shaolin Dragon Claw pure external arts while 18 Dragon Palm or Sad Palm or Tai Chi not only about technique/stance but also about "formula" and inner power "method" how to "manipulate" your inner strength into external arts and "maximize" it (power + technique) that's why though YG learn Dog Beating Stick from H7G directly he still couldn't use it in actual fight until he learn about the "formula" behind this skill from HR..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    I think isn't inconsistency at all but depends on the type of martial arts which Shaolin Dragon Claw pure external arts while 18 Dragon Palm or Sad Palm or Tai Chi not only about technique/stance but also about "formula" and inner power "method" how to "manipulate" your inner strength into external arts and "maximize" it (power + technique) that's why though YG learn Dog Beating Stick from H7G directly he still couldn't use it in actual fight until he learn about the "formula" behind this skill from HR..
    The real tiger claw martial arts is based on and used internal chi, there is also complex formula, concept, philosophy there.

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    If he plays defensive, he wouldn’t necessarily lose to any of them. I believe his internal energy is on par. It’s just that he doesn’t tend to utilise offensive techniques to seize victory. But in terms of a battle of attrition, he would could defeat the older generation Greats. I’d say he’d reach a stalemate with Yang Guo (as I think their stamina is roughly the same).

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyphung View Post
    If he plays defensive, he wouldn’t necessarily lose to any of them. I believe his internal energy is on par. It’s just that he doesn’t tend to utilise offensive techniques to seize victory. But in terms of a battle of attrition, he would could defeat the older generation Greats. I’d say he’d reach a stalemate with Yang Guo (as I think their stamina is roughly the same).
    Unless YG gets depressed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandred Skavenslayer View Post
    Unless YG gets depressed.
    That's not how it works; functional Sad Palms Yeung Gor is the one who has a 50/50 chance straight-up against Cheung Mo Gei (though I have greater confidence in YG winning it simply because CMG is a choker). Happy Yeung Gor is actually at a slight disadvantage because his best technique is nerfed (but again, I can see CMG losing it due to choking).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    That's not how it works; functional Sad Palms Yeung Gor is the one who has a 50/50 chance straight-up against Cheung Mo Gei (though I have greater confidence in YG winning it simply because CMG is a choker). Happy Yeung Gor is actually at a slight disadvantage because his best technique is nerfed (but again, I can see CMG losing it due to choking).
    If happy/normal YG could beat JLFW I don't think YG can't beat Wuji since Wuji not better than JLFW in terms of "lousy"..

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyphung View Post
    If he plays defensive, he wouldn’t necessarily lose to any of them. I believe his internal energy is on par. It’s just that he doesn’t tend to utilise offensive techniques to seize victory. But in terms of a battle of attrition, he would could defeat the older generation Greats. I’d say he’d reach a stalemate with Yang Guo (as I think their stamina is roughly the same).
    If you fight against "ordinary moves" you might be could play "defensively" but against "bizarre moves" like Sad Palm which could attack you from every direction which using with every parts/components from your opponent body you would be in "danger zone"..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    If you fight against "ordinary moves" you might be could play "defensively" but against "bizarre moves" like Sad Palm which could attack you from every direction which using with every parts/components from your opponent body you would be in "danger zone"..
    I think if Zhang Wuji could fend off three simultaneous attacks from the 3 Du monks, he should be able to defend against even the complex offensive powers of the Sad palms.

    If Zhou Botong could neutralise Yang Guo’s sad palms with his Vacant Fist, then Zhang Wuji might be able neutralise them with his QKDNY/Taiji fist.

    That being said, I don’t think Zhang Wuji would be able to defend against Guo Jing’s combination of xl18z, vacant fist, Big Dipper formation and left/right skill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyphung View Post
    I think if Zhang Wuji could fend off three simultaneous attacks from the 3 Du monks, he should be able to defend against even the complex offensive powers of the Sad palms.

    If Zhou Botong could neutralise Yang Guo’s sad palms with his Vacant Fist, then Zhang Wuji might be able neutralise them with his QKDNY/Taiji fist.

    That being said, I don’t think Zhang Wuji would be able to defend against Guo Jing’s combination of xl18z, vacant fist, Big Dipper formation and left/right skill.
    Wuji against Du Monks just "power" vs "power" they never fight for "technique" vs "technique" while ZBT he is "veteran" in terms of fighting in the other hand Wuji just a "newbie" that's why he always "struggling" even against lesser opponents plus ZBT vs YG is a "friendly" match and YG notice/mentioned his moves one by one before he launch it so in death/life situation it would be harder to defend..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    Wuji against Du Monks just "power" vs "power" they never fight for "technique" vs "technique" while ZBT he is "veteran" in terms of fighting in the other hand Wuji just a "newbie" that's why he always "struggling" even against lesser opponents plus ZBT vs YG is a "friendly" match and YG notice/mentioned his moves one by one before he launch it so in death/life situation it would be harder to defend..
    “In this short exchange, the three monks had used the three different stances of nine different styles [san1 zhao1 jiu4 shi4]; each style concealed dozens of variations, dozens of killer moves. Who would have thought that each one of these three stances of nine styles was warded off by the opponent? Each style was extremely dangerous. If the opponent missed even a fraction of a hair width, his flesh would be crushed and his bones broken, he would die a violent death.”

    Excerpt from
    Heavenly Sword, Dragon Sabre Book 4
    Jin Yong
    This material may be protected by copyright.

    It wasn’t entirely an internal energy contest. These three monks were probably the upper echelons of their schools. Their styles could likely come from Shaolin’s 72 consummate skills. I would argue that that the totality of Shaolin martial arts is not below the skills within the nine yin manual.

    Readers tend to say he choke. I agree to an extent. I do agree that Zhang Wuji’s inexperience is a big detractor. That, and his pacifism. Because of this, he doesn’t take the initiative to win. He has no shortage of offensive martial arts (7 injurious fist and dragon claw), he just doesn’t use them (not his style, I guess). But otherwise I would contend that his skills aren’t that bad. Most of the time, he struggles when his opponents are fighting in tandem or in formations, but even then, he wouldn’t necessarily lose. Additionally, I would say the the Persian emissaries’ martial arts are so unconventional, most of the greats would have trouble against it, similar to fighting Ouyeng Feng at the end of LOCH. With regards to the formations of the 3 monks, or the formations of the kunlun and huashan masters, even Greats would have trouble overcoming similar formations, e.g., the jade maiden/quanzhen combination, or the Big Dipper formation. In these cases, it seemed the only way to overcome these formations is to overcome the weakest link. The fact that he survived these combinations is testament to his abilities.

    There was the other time he got injured by the Xuanming Elders on Mt Wudang. I admit, that was careless of him, getting ambush like that. But even the best of fighters can succumb to ambush, e.g., Hong Qigong, Wuyazi, Ouyeng Feng. But after refining his skills on Wudang, ZWJ was more than capable of handling the Xuanming elders.

    However, with regards to one on one, Zhang Wuji is basically undefeated. Well, he lost to Zhou Zhirou, but that was more the case of him getting tricked and going easy on her. Later on he figured out how to neutralise the nine yin white bone claw.

    In summary, I admit that ZWJ does become somewhat surprised by unconventional abilities, but he never really lose against these opponents either. The longer he fights the higher his chances of winning becomes. Yang Guo’s sad palms are exotic, but so is QKDNY and Taiji Skills. Honestly, I think they’re relatively equal.

    IMO, ZWJ would have trouble defending against Guo Jing because of the latter’s combination of profound internal energy, Big Dipper formation, xl18z and vacant fist.

    Furthermore, IMO, if you scaled the GREATs to his age at the end HSDS, he might even be superior

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyphung View Post
    “In this short exchange, the three monks had used the three different stances of nine different styles [san1 zhao1 jiu4 shi4]; each style concealed dozens of variations, dozens of killer moves. Who would have thought that each one of these three stances of nine styles was warded off by the opponent? Each style was extremely dangerous. If the opponent missed even a fraction of a hair width, his flesh would be crushed and his bones broken, he would die a violent death.”

    Excerpt from
    Heavenly Sword, Dragon Sabre Book 4
    Jin Yong
    This material may be protected by copyright.

    It wasn’t entirely an internal energy contest. These three monks were probably the upper echelons of their schools. Their styles could likely come from Shaolin’s 72 consummate skills. I would argue that that the totality of Shaolin martial arts is not below the skills within the nine yin manual.

    Readers tend to say he choke. I agree to an extent. I do agree that Zhang Wuji’s inexperience is a big detractor. That, and his pacifism. Because of this, he doesn’t take the initiative to win. He has no shortage of offensive martial arts (7 injurious fist and dragon claw), he just doesn’t use them (not his style, I guess). But otherwise I would contend that his skills aren’t that bad. Most of the time, he struggles when his opponents are fighting in tandem or in formations, but even then, he wouldn’t necessarily lose. Additionally, I would say the the Persian emissaries’ martial arts are so unconventional, most of the greats would have trouble against it, similar to fighting Ouyeng Feng at the end of LOCH. With regards to the formations of the 3 monks, or the formations of the kunlun and huashan masters, even Greats would have trouble overcoming similar formations, e.g., the jade maiden/quanzhen combination, or the Big Dipper formation. In these cases, it seemed the only way to overcome these formations is to overcome the weakest link. The fact that he survived these combinations is testament to his abilities.

    There was the other time he got injured by the Xuanming Elders on Mt Wudang. I admit, that was careless of him, getting ambush like that. But even the best of fighters can succumb to ambush, e.g., Hong Qigong, Wuyazi, Ouyeng Feng. But after refining his skills on Wudang, ZWJ was more than capable of handling the Xuanming elders.

    However, with regards to one on one, Zhang Wuji is basically undefeated. Well, he lost to Zhou Zhirou, but that was more the case of him getting tricked and going easy on her. Later on he figured out how to neutralise the nine yin white bone claw.

    In summary, I admit that ZWJ does become somewhat surprised by unconventional abilities, but he never really lose against these opponents either. The longer he fights the higher his chances of winning becomes. Yang Guo’s sad palms are exotic, but so is QKDNY and Taiji Skills. Honestly, I think they’re relatively equal.

    IMO, ZWJ would have trouble defending against Guo Jing because of the latter’s combination of profound internal energy, Big Dipper formation, xl18z and vacant fist.

    Furthermore, IMO, if you scaled the GREATs to his age at the end HSDS, he might even be superior
    C'mon dude I think you didn't get my point and more importantly didn't read the book carefully..

    Heaven Sword Dragon Sabre chapter 36..

    Yang Xiao’s pair of Sheng Huoling tablets was also making countless changes. The eyes of most of the spectators were watching the battle between these two people.

    Yin Tianzheng focused all his strength on his palms, sending strike after strike toward Du Nan. Sometimes he took two steps forward, another time he took two steps back.

    On the other front, Zhang Wuji was engaged in a fierce battle against two formidable opponents. These three people’s style looked ordinary and bland, because their true battle was internal. This kind of staking-it-all internal energy match was actually a lot more dangerous than Yin Tianzheng’s battle of strength and Yang Xiao’s battle of style against Du Nan.

    Well I never said Wuji didn't have "technique" or his technique is "bad" what I mean is almost throughout the novel he never using his "technique" to beat his opponents he always use his "power" all of the time..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    C'mon dude I think you didn't get my point and more importantly didn't read the book carefully..

    Heaven Sword Dragon Sabre chapter 36..

    Yang Xiao’s pair of Sheng Huoling tablets was also making countless changes. The eyes of most of the spectators were watching the battle between these two people.

    Yin Tianzheng focused all his strength on his palms, sending strike after strike toward Du Nan. Sometimes he took two steps forward, another time he took two steps back.

    On the other front, Zhang Wuji was engaged in a fierce battle against two formidable opponents. These three people’s style looked ordinary and bland, because their true battle was internal. This kind of staking-it-all internal energy match was actually a lot more dangerous than Yin Tianzheng’s battle of strength and Yang Xiao’s battle of style against Du Nan.

    Well I never said Wuji didn't have "technique" or his technique is "bad" what I mean is almost throughout the novel he never using his "technique" to beat his opponents he always use his "power" all of the time..
    Yeah I agree in terms of internal and external aspects Wuji equal or even better than most of L/ROCH Greats but to win match/battle you couldn't only using your "might" but also your "brain" and "experience" especially against someone which as good as yourself which too bad Wuji lack in that regard..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    Yeah I agree in terms of internal and external aspects Wuji equal or even better than most of L/ROCH Greats but to win match/battle you couldn't only using your "might" but also your "brain" and "experience" especially against someone which as good as yourself which too bad Wuji lack in that regard..
    I’m not trying to be argumentative btw. I just really like discussing this with you guys.

    I agree that he lacks experience. In terms of brain power, he’s somewhere between Guo Jing and Yang Guo. I think his unconventional advancement is a double edge sword. Because his martial arts development grew so rapidly in a short time, he never had that conventional opportunity to hone his fighting instincts against fighters of equal powers. Due to his isolation, he was deprived of experience. In his era, there isn’t really anyone he could call a rival to help him sharpen that aspect. It’s a shame really.

    “At first, Zhang Wuji was still able to use 70% of his strength in defense and 30% for offense. More than 200 stances, however, he started to feel that his pure and clear internal energy gradually turned muddy that in order to survive he could only defend and not attack at all. His Jiu Yang Shen Gong was actually unlimited; the more he used it, the stronger he was. But right now, every move he made consumed enormous internal energy that little by little he felt his stamina decrease. Actually, it was also because he had never had this kind of experience ever since he trained the Shen Gong [divine skill/strength].”

    Excerpt from
    Heavenly Sword, Dragon Sabre Book 4
    Jin Yong
    This material may be protected by copyright.

    That being said, it does seem like by the third fight against the 3 monks, he has gain a lot more experience in maintaining his stamina against upper class opponents.

    But I think with ZWJ’s fighting style (based on Nine Yang theory), he doesn’t really aim to win in the conventional way, more so to outlast the opponent. IMO, between two fights between two people of similar abilities, playing defence isn’t hard. Yang Guo admitted that for him to defeat Zhou Botong would be hard, but if he played defence, he could do so easily. And Zhang Wuji’s style is predominantly defensive. Offensively, Zhang Wuji would likely lose to Yang Guo. But if he sticks to defence, it could be a stalemate, even if he lacks the experience to win, he wouldn’t necessarily lose. IMO ZWJ is like (ATK:2500, DEF:3000), while Yang Guo is like (ATK:3000, DEF:2500).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    Well I never said Wuji didn't have "technique" or his technique is "bad" what I mean is almost throughout the novel he never using his "technique" to beat his opponents he always use his "power" all of the time..
    I don’t disagree. However, in some cases, it’s hard to separate power from technique. Let’s take the sad palms or xl18z, without strong internal energy, it is likely useless. Similarly, ZWJ’s QKDNY requires abundant internal energy.

    But yes, I can agree that ZWJ is more reliant on his internal powers than most fighters. He’s similar to Duan Yu in the sense that they attained numerous high level skills, but lacks diversity in low level and mid level skills as foundation.

    ZWJ might very well be the lowest tier “great” in the trilogy, but I reckon he possesses the greatest potential within the trilogy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyphung View Post
    I’m not trying to be argumentative btw. I just really like discussing this with you guys.

    I agree that he lacks experience. In terms of brain power, he’s somewhere between Guo Jing and Yang Guo. I think his unconventional advancement is a double edge sword. Because his martial arts development grew so rapidly in a short time, he never had that conventional opportunity to hone his fighting instincts against fighters of equal powers. Due to his isolation, he was deprived of experience. In his era, there isn’t really anyone he could call a rival to help him sharpen that aspect. It’s a shame really.

    “At first, Zhang Wuji was still able to use 70% of his strength in defense and 30% for offense. More than 200 stances, however, he started to feel that his pure and clear internal energy gradually turned muddy that in order to survive he could only defend and not attack at all. His Jiu Yang Shen Gong was actually unlimited; the more he used it, the stronger he was. But right now, every move he made consumed enormous internal energy that little by little he felt his stamina decrease. Actually, it was also because he had never had this kind of experience ever since he trained the Shen Gong [divine skill/strength].”

    Excerpt from
    Heavenly Sword, Dragon Sabre Book 4
    Jin Yong
    This material may be protected by copyright.

    That being said, it does seem like by the third fight against the 3 monks, he has gain a lot more experience in maintaining his stamina against upper class opponents.

    But I think with ZWJ’s fighting style (based on Nine Yang theory), he doesn’t really aim to win in the conventional way, more so to outlast the opponent. IMO, between two fights between two people of similar abilities, playing defence isn’t hard. Yang Guo admitted that for him to defeat Zhou Botong would be hard, but if he played defence, he could do so easily. And Zhang Wuji’s style is predominantly defensive. Offensively, Zhang Wuji would likely lose to Yang Guo. But if he sticks to defence, it could be a stalemate, even if he lacks the experience to win, he wouldn’t necessarily lose. IMO ZWJ is like (ATK:2500, DEF:3000), while Yang Guo is like (ATK:3000, DEF:2500).
    Well I agree about it that Wuji fighting style mostly "defensively" by default that's why you need some of "trick" to "break" it and if we talk about master of "trick" during fighting no one from JY heroes could rivalled YG except might be LHC and HR..

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyphung View Post
    I don’t disagree. However, in some cases, it’s hard to separate power from technique. Let’s take the sad palms or xl18z, without strong internal energy, it is likely useless. Similarly, ZWJ’s QKDNY requires abundant internal energy.

    But yes, I can agree that ZWJ is more reliant on his internal powers than most fighters. He’s similar to Duan Yu in the sense that they attained numerous high level skills, but lacks diversity in low level and mid level skills as foundation.

    ZWJ might very well be the lowest tier “great” in the trilogy, but I reckon he possesses the greatest potential within the trilogy.
    Well I mean technique is more of "hand to hand" rather than just "skill" which mean Qian Kun Shift is not "technique" at all even Tai Chi I think is not hand to hand combat skills..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    Yeah I agree in terms of internal and external aspects Wuji equal or even better than most of L/ROCH Greats but to win match/battle you couldn't only using your "might" but also your "brain" and "experience" especially against someone which as good as yourself which too bad Wuji lack in that regard..
    You're comparing apples to oranges which is not fair.

    You'll need to take a 20 year old great and compare it to ZWJ. How much experience did a great have in his 20s and how strong was he? Can any great at 20 overpower ZWJ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    You're comparing apples to oranges which is not fair.

    You'll need to take a 20 year old great and compare it to ZWJ. How much experience did a great have in his 20s and how strong was he? Can any great at 20 overpower ZWJ?
    I think you didn't even know what I mean YG with HIS in his early 20 years could rivalled any of Greats and their peers even he beat both of them what different between YG and Wuji both of them reach such very high level yet YG could perform better than Wuji in terms of "fighting" as for Greats no one of them reach their level in 20s you we couldn't talk much about it..

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