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Thread: Zhang Wuji and ROCH end greats

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    Senior Member goodrick's Avatar
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    Default Zhang Wuji and ROCH end greats

    Was Zhang Wuji at the level of ROCH end greats or was his level greater or lesser than them? and at what point did he reach/surpass the ROCH-end great level? Was is immediately after he learned the entire Jiuyang Zhen Jing or was it after he mastered Qian Kun Da Nuo Yi or was it sometime later?
    Last edited by goodrick; 02-05-11 at 10:34 AM.

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    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    Based on internal energy, repertoire of techniques, and character stats-- I believe ZWJ reached ROCH greats lvl after learning Tai Chi fist & sword

    But in terms of battle experience and net fighting capacity... I don't think we see ZWJ reach ROCH Great's lvl even at the end of the story. Hence so many discussions on this forum about ZWJ's uncanny ability to choke and underperform

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    I agree. I think Wuji is actually much lower than the ROCH Greats, especially Guo Jing/Yang Guo. If the other ROCH Greats were younger, I'd say he is much lower than them too.

    QKDNY was a shortcut that let him utilize his inner strength efficiently, something which the other Greats naturally knew through years of experience. The diverting of energy is only seen to be used on people of a much lower caliber, and even then he had to use his full power and the highest level to use against the Xuan Ming elders. A ROCH Great would just bowl them over in a blow or two, and QKDNY is simply just not very impressive or useful against a true elite.

    9 Yang allowed him to gain an absurd amount of inner power, but we see it is not as pure as Zhang Sanfeng or Du Monks, and definitely not as pure as the old Greats + Guo Jing, perhaps it is at the purity of Yang Guo's. He has no advantage here either.

    In terms of techniques, this leaves him with just Taiji. How great it is is up to you to decide, but I don't really see it as being better than anything we've seen in ROCH.

    So we have a guy that doesn't have any real tangible advantages in the technical departments, but now we have to consider their mentalities and experience. Wuji is constantly seen to choke, is naturally a passive fighter, and is merely 20 years old that lacks fighting experience, especially with people that are at his level. He has only fought people that are many times weaker than him. A ROCH Great on the other hand has 70+ years of experience, has been fighting equals throughout their whole life, dedicated most of their life to martial arts, and have shown themselves to be supremely intelligent and cunning in the field of martial arts. This is no contest to me, and I think it is crazy when people mention his 6 months of training with Zhang Sanfeng (as great as he is) as proof that he is no scrub in martial arts. The ROCH Greats have trained for decades day and night....6 months is really a walk in the park.

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    Senior Member goodrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    I think Wuji is actually much lower than the ROCH Greats,
    I think I'll take that statement with a pinch of salt. He may or may not be as great as the ROCH greats, but to call him MUCH LOWER than the ROCH greats is a little bit of stretch

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    I just think battle experience and instincts is really underrated when assessing Zhang Wuji. He has the inner power and possibly the technique, but he really doesn't know how to use it against Greats or even sub Greats. I don't know what your definition of much lower would be, but I think he would lose in a fight against Guo Jing/Yang Guo 10/10 times. Against the Older Greats I think he would lose the first couple fights no questions asked also, and he would eventually learn to cope with their superior instincts and techniques with his young and vigorous strength, but at the specific end of HSDS point, he would definitely get trounced which is why I say he's much lower.

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    Senior Member Exodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    I just think battle experience and instincts is really underrated when assessing Zhang Wuji. He has the inner power and possibly the technique, but he really doesn't know how to use it against Greats or even sub Greats. I don't know what your definition of much lower would be, but I think he would lose in a fight against Guo Jing/Yang Guo 10/10 times. Against the Older Greats I think he would lose the first couple fights no questions asked also, and he would eventually learn to cope with their superior instincts and techniques with his young and vigorous strength, but at the specific end of HSDS point, he would definitely get trounced which is why I say he's much lower.

    yeah totally agree with you. He don't stand a chance against any greats. Sure he will get better but fighting instinct is natural born and it seems pretty evident that ZWJ lacks this.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Cheung Mo Gei is inferior as a *fighter* to the ROCH Greats, but in terms of raw power, he could probably surpass any one of them. That 9 Yeung inner power was no joke; it did things we never saw ROCH Greats do.

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    Senior Member Exodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Cheung Mo Gei is inferior as a *fighter* to the ROCH Greats, but in terms of raw power, he could probably surpass any one of them. That 9 Yeung inner power was no joke; it did things we never saw ROCH Greats do.
    I agree however we have to look at the people he fought against. Most of them were pretty much useless and maybe that's why we get the impression that 9 yang is so powerful. Think GJ or YG in his place would've created something similar impression maybe even more like finishing people in one move.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Cheung Mo Gei is inferior as a *fighter* to the ROCH Greats, but in terms of raw power, he could probably surpass any one of them. That 9 Yeung inner power was no joke; it did things we never saw ROCH Greats do.
    This is probably true, but HSDS gives him a lot more screentime (as a Great) than any other character got. Plus he was surrounded by people who had 10-15% of his inner power, so it's really easy to look uber. His healing and autoprotect is what sticks out the most to me, but we have an instance of Huang Yaoshi curing Guo Jing's injury in minutes, Yideng curing fatal injuries, and 9 Yin itself which has some awesome curing powers too. The autoprotect is impressive, but it fails to work against better fighters like the Xuan Ming elders and above. Huang Yaoshi was pretty much able to let young Guo Jing hit him with no injury whatsoever also, and the 15 Palms Guo Jing probably generates as much raw power as most of the people who Wuji's autoprotect worked on.

    All in all, Wuji's inner strength probably is a little better than theirs, but it really is not that conclusive, and subject to screentime bias if anything. We do know with certainty though that his inner strength is not as pure as Zhang Sanfeng or even the Du Monks, probably due to his unconventional shortcuts, so even if his raw power is a little bit better, the purity of the older Greats' (especially the very orthodox and steady based Guo Jing's) probably negates it and might even give them an edge in the inner power department as well. This would leave poor Wuji to be inferior in every aspect. Just a speculation.
    Last edited by tape; 02-05-11 at 03:22 PM.

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    Senior Member chibidaisuke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    I just think battle experience and instincts is really underrated when assessing Zhang Wuji. He has the inner power and possibly the technique, but he really doesn't know how to use it against Greats or even sub Greats. I don't know what your definition of much lower would be, but I think he would lose in a fight against Guo Jing/Yang Guo 10/10 times. Against the Older Greats I think he would lose the first couple fights no questions asked also, and he would eventually learn to cope with their superior instincts and techniques with his young and vigorous strength, but at the specific end of HSDS point, he would definitely get trounced which is why I say he's much lower.
    Yeah I agree with every of your points. Makes me wonder why some people even try to measure Zhang Wuji against the mighty Xiao Feng.

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    Senior Member goodrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chibidaisuke View Post
    Yeah I agree with every of your points. Makes me wonder why some people even try to measure Zhang Wuji against the mighty Xiao Feng.
    Thats strange that people would do that since the wider consensus is that the top martial artists of Demi Gods and Semi Devils were at higher level than the top martial artists of the LOCH/ROCH/HSDS trilogy.
    But then Wuji knows QKDNY and might be able to handle anyone

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodrick View Post
    Thats strange that people would do that since the wider consensus is that the top martial artists of Demi Gods and Semi Devils were at higher level than the top martial artists of the LOCH/ROCH/HSDS trilogy.
    But then Wuji knows QKDNY and might be able to handle anyone
    Janitor Monk, Hui Juk, the Siu Yiu Sect Elders, and Deun Yu were head and shoulders above the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY Greats, but the Kiu Fung-level fighters (e.g. Kiu Fung, Kau Mor Tze, Mo Yung Bok, Siu Yeun San)...maybe not so.

    Still, Kiu Fung was the fiercest and most gifted of fighters. Cheung Mo Gei was his antithesis: reluctant to use violence and not very good at using it even when he had to. Cheung Mo Gei might have equal or even somewhat better inner power than Kiu Fung did, but he's unlikely to win a fight against Kiu Fung.

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    Senior Member CancerLuna's Avatar
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    Lurking these forums for so long, it seems the consensus every time ZWJ vs individual great comes up, ZWJ is almost always picked as the winner, yet when it comes to actually comparing him to the greats, many say he was their inferior.

    My opinion is that he is behind even QQR if it is just a 1v1. We see QQR choke and we see ZWJ choke, the difference being QQR chokes against plot armored heroes whereas ZWJ chokes because of his character.

    Yes we see his amazing internal do many incredible things, but these are next to scrub fighters. To put an analogy forth, put a hot girl in a group of ugly girls, she will feel like a queen, put her in a room full of models, and she will be a dime a dozen.

    This is how I see ZWJ with regards to the greats, against scrubs, we see absolute domination but against a great, he would just be the rookie with a lot of Internal energy, ALA You Tanzhi and Xiao Feng

    His having higher Internal isn't conclusive also and just mere speculation at best, so now we have
    1. easily seen weaker combat ability/experience
    2. does mediocre against worse opponents
    3. on the same tier of internal as the greats

    With this in mind, I don't think ZWJ would win against any of the Greats.

    I think if we just tried to see him as a non-main character character, the perspective would change, and people would rate him below most greats who are more well rounded in: Internal, Combat Ability, and Experience.

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    he dosent seam to strugle more against stronger upponents... when he fights the 3 monks... (easily equalls of the greats IMO) he fights them with same difficulty as his other opponents.
    Ali Derhamy

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    Senior Member devilz91's Avatar
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    Only took him three tries.

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    i really do doubt zwj is great levels. more like mei chou fong level i believe. like someone posted, he's like that guy in demi god semi devil with the iron mask, You Tanzhi i think. he had alot of inner power, but lack experience.

    zwj is like yang guo before he got his arm cut off. he have alot of techniques to his disposal but didn't have experience to utilize them. yang guo had what like 30 years energy off ice bed.

    it seems like the 3 monks as well as rest of the other sects were more impressed with the 9 yin compared to any martial arts techniques wuji had. look at how strong zhou zhira(sp) became when she learned the fake 9 yin claw. n she had only what couple years of training in omei sect. so her internal energy should be weak.

    its like in smiling proud wanderer, strong internal energy isn't always best, good sword style n versatility helps. heck ling hu chong with no internal energy probably could wipe the floor with wuji. dugu jian all the way.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aliderhamy View Post
    he dosent seam to strugle more against stronger upponents... when he fights the 3 monks... (easily equalls of the greats IMO) he fights them with same difficulty as his other opponents.
    ZWJ has more problems with weird techniques. With the 3 Du monks, it was mostly an internal contest.

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    Default Good point

    Quote Originally Posted by devilz91 View Post
    Only took him three tries.

    But you see what I am getting at. It is not that he is weak, but rather his personality is allmost the opposit of some of the classic heros. he is soft and thoughtful rather then proud and agressive.
    Ali Derhamy

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    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    He's a peacekeeper.

    It's interesting. Xiao Feng kills himself out of compassion for others and he's lauded as the greatest and most selfless hero ever. Zhang Wuji's compassion for others only gets him scorn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aliderhamy View Post
    But you see what I am getting at. It is not that he is weak, but rather his personality is allmost the opposit of some of the classic heros. he is soft and thoughtful rather then proud and agressive.
    Which makes him a bad fighter. There's nothing wrong with being soft and thoughtful, but you can't really complain when that works to your detriment in something such as fighting.

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