Should the Xiaoyao Sect Elders be more powerful?

[PJ]

They seem pretty powerful until you consider this:

They were said to be exceptionally talented, and they have been practicing the MOST advanced martial arts for 70-80 years. While someone like Xiao Feng has been practicing LESS prestigious martial arts for only about 25 years. And most people seem to agree that Xiaoyao Sect elders are only about 1.1-1.5x better than Xiao Feng, not dramatically.

Logically, I think Xiaoyao Sect elders should be able to wipe the floor with Xiao Feng, Xiao Yuanshan, and Murong Bo. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

[devilz91]

They seem pretty powerful until you consider this:

They were said to be exceptionally talented, and they have been practicing the MOST advanced martial arts for 70-80 years. While someone like Xiao Feng has been practicing LESS prestigious martial arts for only about 25 years. And most people seem to agree that Xiaoyao Sect elders are only about 1.1-1.5x better than Xiao Feng, not dramatically.

Logically, I think Xiaoyao Sect elders should be able to wipe the floor with Xiao Feng, Xiao Yuanshan, and Murong Bo. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

Why this? I always thought they were at least 2x more powerful and felt I was being conservative. Is there anything that suggests they are only marginally better?

[PJ]

Why this? I always thought they were at least 2x more powerful and felt I was being conservative. Is there anything that suggests they are only marginally better?

There have been some discussions about this in the past. Some feel the Xiaoyao elders haven't displayed any feat that suggests they're way better than XF etc.

[devilz91]

It seems illogical for XF to be so strong in the first place; I mean he is on a comparable level with GJ who has 30+ years of 9yin. It's more of XF overperforming than the XY Elders underperforming. Murong Bo was also ridiculously strong as a teenager yet only matched XF despite having 30 years on him.

Tianshan Tonglao is supposedly able to defeat the 72/36 cave guys in one stance and they are not that much weaker than Murong Fu. Li Qiushui also has 70+ years of XWXG mastery compared to JMZ who only had 6/7 volumes while DCQ could not even handle 1 vol (I think?) I do think that they are much more powerful than DGSD Elites even though there isn't any feat that suggests so.

[PJ]

It seems illogical for XF to be so strong in the first place; I mean he is on a comparable level with GJ who has 30+ years of 9yin. It's more of XF overperforming than the XY Elders underperforming.

But then again, Zhang Wuji and Shi Potian both got close to or exceeding Xiao Feng level in their 20s. Yang Guo got there in his 30s. So Xiao Feng is not the most overperforming.

Tianshan Tonglao is supposedly able to defeat the 72/36 cave guys in one stance and they are not that much weaker than Murong Fu.

I'm confident that Xiao Feng can single-stance execute a cave/island leader as well.

Li Qiushui also has 70+ years of XWXG mastery compared to JMZ who only had 6/7 volumes while DCQ could not even handle 1 vol (I think?) I do think that they are much more powerful than DGSD Elites even though there isn't any feat that suggests so.

That's what I mean. On paper the Xiaoyao Elders seem like they should be a lot better, but from their feats they don't seem like it.

Murong Bo was also ridiculously strong as a teenager yet only matched XF despite having 30 years on him.

I have a theory that people's improvement dramatically decrease after a certain age. If we apply this to MRB and ROCH GJ, it would make more sense why 60 year old MRB is "only" at XF's level, and why ROCH GJ doesn't seem "that" much better than the old Greats.

[minutemanwayne]

To gauge the Xiao Yao elders powers, we'd have to look at them through Xu Zhu. After recieving Wuyazi's internal energy, Xu Zhu could kill with ACORNS. Can Xiao Feng and others do that? I think not. Not to mention the fact that Xu Zhu at that point couldn't even unleash all of his internal energy yet.

[devilz91]

But then again, Zhang Wuji and Shi Potian both got close to or exceeding Xiao Feng level in their 20s. Yang Guo got there in his 30s. So Xiao Feng is not the most overperforming.

Well, Shi Potian cheated with miracle after the next. Yang Guo went from mediocre to near Greats level with snake bladder cheats, and I suppose Zhang Wuji didn't really cheat in that sense but still had the benefit of one of the best internal arts. In terms of earning martial arts the old fashioned way, I would have to say Xiao Feng is way stronger than hes supposed to be.

I have a theory that people's improvement dramatically decrease after a certain age. If we apply this to MRB and ROCH GJ, it would make more sense why 60 year old MRB is "only" at XF's level, and why ROCH GJ doesn't seem "that" much better than the old Greats.

This is probably true, otherwise the really old people get way too strong and the plot can't handle it. Wasn't XF also claimed to have improved from the beginning of DGSD to the end? That was a period of 2 or 3 years yet he seemed to stay more or less the same.

[devilz91]

To gauge the Xiao Yao elders powers, we'd have to look at them through Xu Zhu. After recieving Wuyazi's internal energy, Xu Zhu could kill with ACORNS. Can Xiao Feng and others do that? I think not. Not to mention the fact that Xu Zhu at that point couldn't even unleash all of his internal energy yet.

That doesn't really seem that impressive at all. I don't see why XF would not be able to do this.

[Ken Cheng]

That doesn't really seem that impressive at all. I don't see why XF would not be able to do this.

Yeah. East Heretic Wong Yerk See basically did the same thing with his Divine Finger Snap. If a "mere" East Heretic could do it, why not Kiu Fung?

[PJ]

Well, Shi Potian cheated with miracle after the next. Yang Guo went from mediocre to near Greats level with snake bladder cheats, and I suppose Zhang Wuji didn't really cheat in that sense but still had the benefit of one of the best internal arts. In terms of earning martial arts the old fashioned way, I would have to say Xiao Feng is way stronger than hes supposed to be.

But Xiao Feng also had something that Shi, Yang, and Zhang didn't have: being taught advanced martial arts by dedicated experts since age 7 or 8.

Wasn't XF also claimed to have improved from the beginning of DGSD to the end? That was a period of 2 or 3 years yet he seemed to stay more or less the same.

Yes, XF improved without any training. He's still in his prime age. I'm guessing around 45-50 is when ppl stop improving.

[minutemanwayne]

Yeah. East Heretic Wong Yerk See basically did the same thing with his Divine Finger Snap. If a "mere" East Heretic could do it, why not Kiu Fung?

Diving Finger Snap was a specialized technique and Huang Yaoshi is a man with many years of experience. He also used pebbles, a much harder substance than an acorn. Xu Zhu just merely picked up a few acorns and threw them.

[Snafu3721]

Diving Finger Snap was a specialized technique and Huang Yaoshi is a man with many years of experience. He also used pebbles, a much harder substance than an acorn. Xu Zhu just merely picked up a few acorns and threw them.

I second this notion

Diving finger snap was an elite skill designed specifically to send projectiles that kill

XZ, while utilizing a fraction of his intern power randomly throws acorns and kills people. And it was thrown without any killing intent.

[PJ]

Xuzhu didn't just casually throw an acorn. He was under the direction of TSTL who told him how gather up his chi to do it. I believe it was specifically said that his internal energy was fully utilizable that time, so I believe he unleashed close to Wuyazi's maximum power.

[devilz91]

I second this notion

Diving finger snap was an elite skill designed specifically to send projectiles that kill

XZ, while utilizing a fraction of his intern power randomly throws acorns and kills people. And it was thrown without any killing intent.

Doesn't say anything about whether or not XF can do it. In fact I think even LOCH Qiu Chuji could do it.

[CancerLuna]

Maybe there are 2 plateaus, ROCH/DGSD and Xiaoyao Elder level, with the Xiaoyao Elder level only being 1.5 times ROCH/DGSD level.

[Snafu3721]

Xuzhu didn't just casually throw an acorn. He was under the direction of TSTL who told him how gather up his chi to do it. I believe it was specifically said that his internal energy was fully utilizable that time, so I believe he unleashed close to Wuyazi's maximum power.

XZ did receive instructions from TSTL, but they were quick simple breathing techniques. It goes back to the discussion on "technique" efficiency. Whereby XL18P would be a more efficient palm that utilizes one's internal.

I think that finger snap is an elite technique that ultilizes the internal to quite a high degree when sending projectiles. Comparing this with XZ who just did some breathing and threw acorns without killing intent.

[Snafu3721]

Doesn't say anything about whether or not XF can do it. In fact I think even LOCH Qiu Chuji could do it.

It's true that there is no distinct narrative by JY or particular feats that show whether XF can or can not do this. But I don't imagine him having the power to just throw acorns and killing people of a certain martial caliber. I'll have to re-read DGSD and look up feats as comparison.

It's just a gut feel I have for now

[kyss of the sword]

i believe after a certain level, you focus on retaining your skills and improving your efficiency of your skills. so the XYP elders would have better proficiency in their moves like XYS was better able to use the rope as a whip when compared to XF even through XF had the same level of inner power and could hold his own in moves. XF could do some of the same moves but not all moves as well as his father.
XYP skills were focused on inner power usage, so since XuZhu had high inner power, he could execute simple moves with fierce force.

[K2Grey]

I don't think there's any evidence that the XYP Elders are NOT dramatically better than Xiao Feng.

In the absence of direct matchups or matchups by proxy (e.g. if you can own Duan Yanqing you can probably own Ding Chuniqu as well) there is no good way to evaluate exactly how good two people are compared to each other. Hence why XF and MRF were considered equals in wulin despite the large power disparity between them.

Even with direct matchups, they can be misleading. For example when XF and that one monk in Shaolin exchanged blows and XF wobbled you would think that they were evenly matched or XF was only slightly superior. But in fact XF is much better.

But there are reasons to think the XYP Elders are all that, with how they are all super old with bazillions of years of internal energy, and their sect has like a limitless supply of uber kungfu.

[PJ]

I don't think there's any evidence that the XYP Elders are NOT dramatically better than Xiao Feng.

There is. I'm just too lazy to dig them up.

Most famous is the remark that even if Su Xinghe had Wuyazi's complete internal energy, he would still be no match for Ding Chunqiu.