How many 'Yang Xiao' class fighters exist in HSDS?

[tape]

In talking about the talented wulin of HSDS from the other thread, I've decided to try to compile a list of characters that are very strong despite being well below Greats level. They are representative of the wulin elite with the exception of the outlier Greats.

I'm just listing people more or less on the 'Yang Xiao' level, with making some special notes for people that are well above him but still not Greats-class.

From the Ming Cult we have:
Yang Xiao, Fan Yao, 4 Guardian Lords, Yin Yewang (7)
**If we include some ELOCs, I'd also add one or two of the '12 Precious Kings' from Persia, namely the Eternal King (1)

From the 5 Major Sects we have:
The 5 Wudang Heroes, Miejue, Kunlun He couple, the 4 Kong Monks, *3 Du monks (15)

From the Mongolian mercenaries we have:
Xuanming Elders, Ah Da/Er/San (5)

Miscellaneous:
Cheng Kun, Shi Huolong, the two experts that attacked the Du Monks (4)


This is already 32 people at a very elite level, and I'm sure I forgot quite a few. I don't know how far we want to stretch this era, but if we go farther back there are even more Shaolin monks, He Zudao, the Xuanming Palm user Ba Sun (I think), Guo Xiang, Kongtong founder Mulingzi, etc

[PJ]

here's a few more that I think are pretty good:

-Yellow Dressed Lady
-Chuangong and Zhifa Zhanglao from Gai Bang. Chuangong Zhanglao withstood 5 Xuanming Divine palms, whereas Yang Xiao had trouble with just one palm. Zhifa Zhanglao's lightness kung fu is said to be almost as good as Wei Yixiao
-Zhuang Zheng
-Han Qianye? Maybe? Hu Qingniu by feeling his pulse said his internal energy was very high. And Han's father was good enough to have a fight with Yang Dingtian
-Yang Dingtian
-Zhou Zhiruo (say what you will, but she was superhuman-like until ppl figured out her weakness, which was not easy)
-The 3 Persian messengers. They kicked Zhang Wuji's ***. Though, not sure how powerful they'd be individually.

That's a lot of people. Unfortunately, DGSD probably still has more, thanks to the 20 or so Xuan-generation monks which account for half of the people in their level. Now I see why Shaolin was at its peak during DGSD, even though their best regular fighter was far below Elite level.

[Ken Cheng]

In talking about the talented wulin of HSDS from the other thread, I've decided to try to compile a list of characters that are very strong despite being well below Greats level. They are representative of the wulin elite with the exception of the outlier Greats.

I'm just listing people more or less on the 'Yang Xiao' level, with making some special notes for people that are well above him but still not Greats-class.

From the Ming Cult we have:
Yang Xiao, Fan Yao, 4 Guardian Lords, Yin Yewang (7)
**If we include some ELOCs, I'd also add one or two of the '12 Precious Kings' from Persia, namely the Eternal King (1)

From the 5 Major Sects we have:
The 5 Wudang Heroes, Miejue, Kunlun He couple, the 4 Kong Monks, *3 Du monks (15)

From the Mongolian mercenaries we have:
Xuanming Elders, Ah Da/Er/San (5)

Miscellaneous:
Cheng Kun, Shi Huolong, the two experts that attacked the Du Monks (4)


This is already 32 people at a very elite level, and I'm sure I forgot quite a few. I don't know how far we want to stretch this era, but if we go farther back there are even more Shaolin monks, He Zudao, the Xuanming Palm user Ba Sun (I think), Guo Xiang, Kongtong founder Mulingzi, etc

Aren't people such as Sing Kwun and the Yeun Ming Elders significantly more powerful than Yeung Siu, while people such as Ho Tai Chung and his wife are much weaker?

[tape]

Yeah, Cheng Kun should be almost 2x Yang Xiao, and the Xuan Ming elders are definitely better, especially in palm clashes, but it was said that it would take hundreds of stances between them and Fan Yao so I think it's close enough to lump them together.

You are right about the He couple, as the two of them together are only roughly equal to Yang Xiao in their brief skirmish, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt of improving more since they're at a lower level and a sect leader after all.

[CancerLuna]

I have nothing to add, but how many people were as talented as Yang Xiao. He seemed to be in the elite with regards to martial arts talent. It seems if he got some plotbreaking lucky encounters, he'd easily be in the ranks of the Greats, or QQR level.

[tape]

here's a few more that I think are pretty good:

-Yellow Dressed Lady
-Chuangong and Zhifa Zhanglao from Gai Bang. Chuangong Zhanglao withstood 5 Xuanming Divine palms, whereas Yang Xiao had trouble with just one palm. Zhifa Zhanglao's lightness kung fu is said to be almost as good as Wei Yixiao
-Zhuang Zheng
-Han Qianye? Maybe? Hu Qingniu by feeling his pulse said his internal energy was very high. And Han's father was good enough to have a fight with Yang Dingtian
-Yang Dingtian
-Zhou Zhiruo (say what you will, but she was superhuman-like until ppl figured out her weakness, which was not easy)
-The 3 Persian messengers. They kicked Zhang Wuji's ***. Though, not sure how powerful they'd be individually.

That's a lot of people. Unfortunately, DGSD probably still has more, thanks to the 20 or so Xuan-generation monks which account for half of the people in their level. Now I see why Shaolin was at its peak during DGSD, even though their best regular fighter was far below Elite level.

I forgot about good old Zhuang Zheng, nice choices.

Speaking of HSDS, there's an interesting line that says Yin Tianzheng has never taken more than ten stances to defeat anyone. Do we take these lines at face value, or just mark them as hyperbole to hype him up? His opposition would be really weak then, and it's not hard to see why someone like Dugu Qiubai has never found a match. China is simply HUGE if you don't get lucky and encounter experts. But then again, he is able to take his martial arts to an incredible level even without (known) guidance or skilled competition, so in the end it's inconclusive.

[tape]

I have nothing to add, but how many people were as talented as Yang Xiao. He seemed to be in the elite with regards to martial arts talent. It seems if he got some plotbreaking lucky encounters, he'd easily be in the ranks of the Greats, or QQR level.

It's HSDS and people like him that made me theorize about martial arts breakpoints, where there is a max level you can reach unless something exceedingly rare happens to you. He is clearly supremely talented and intelligent, and reached an elite level at a young age, but just kind of stayed there, where a ton of other people are that don't strike me as being particularly talented.

Reaching 'Great' level is exceedingly rare and difficult, which is why I always have doubts about Zhang Cuisan despite him always touted as the brightest and the one to carry own ZSF's legacy. ZSF mentioned he had the highest understanding once, and he has shown no particularly impressive feats relative to being a Wudang top discple. Personally, I feel Yang Xiao is more impressive.

[Dirt]

There's just no substitute for hard work. QQR, OYF, DZX, etc., all spent years doing nothing but train. Even Zhang Sanfeng locked himself away for extended periods of time. The question is if Yang Xiao could reach Greats level if he locked himself up for 5 or 10 years and trained. Xie Xun spent decades on the island and probably didn't have to do much except train which is probably why he was able to defeat his master, but he never reached Greats level.

[Ken Cheng]

There's just no substitute for hard work. QQR, OYF, DZX, etc., all spent years doing nothing but train. The question is if Yang Xiao could reach Greats level if he locked himself up for 5 years and trained. Xie Xun spent decades on the island and probably didn't have to do much except train which is probably why he was able to defeat his master, but he never reached Greats level.

There's also the quality of the skills one gets to train with. Tse Tsun might have trained hard, but he had nothing better than Hung Dung Sect's 7 Seung Fist, which will only get a martial artist so far.

If Tse Tsun had 9 Yum Jen Ging, 9 Yeung Jen Ging, or Tai Chi, things might have been different.

[devilz91]

Good list, can't really think of anyone missing right now.

There's also the quality of the skills one gets to train with.

Definitely this, which fits into the deterioration theory; people got weaker because they did not have the luxury of good skills to train with.

[Dirt]

I don't think 7 Injury Fists is any worse than Yiyang Zhi or Xiang Long 18 Zhang. I also don't think 9ying would necessarily automatically increase a person to Greats level. It's also dependent on whether that person can grok the martial arts. Part of the reason Guo Jing was able to figure it out was because of his Xian Tian Gong base along with the help of the Greats and the highly intelligent Huang Rong. Ultimately, I think it comes back to hard work.

[PJ]

Yeah, Cheng Kun should be almost 2x Yang Xiao

The stupid, nonsensical line saying that Cheng Kun = a Du monk has been removed in 3rd edition, so let us never again bring that up!

[PJ]

Speaking of HSDS, there's an interesting line that says Yin Tianzheng has never taken more than ten stances to defeat anyone. Do we take these lines at face value, or just mark them as hyperbole to hype him up? His opposition would be really weak then, and it's not hard to see why someone like Dugu Qiubai has never found a match. China is simply HUGE if you don't get lucky and encounter experts. But then again, he is able to take his martial arts to an incredible level even without (known) guidance or skilled competition, so in the end it's inconclusive.

I don't remember that line about Yin Tianzheng, but I do remember reading about various people either never meeting a match or never needing X many stances to defeat someone. Since this information is quantatative and absolute, I think we can trust it. It's different from qualitative descriptions which are often hyperboles.

[PJ]

It's HSDS and people like him that made me theorize about martial arts breakpoints, where there is a max level you can reach unless something exceedingly rare happens to you. He is clearly supremely talented and intelligent, and reached an elite level at a young age, but just kind of stayed there, where a ton of other people are that don't strike me as being particularly talented.

I had a theory about how people make big gains in martial arts. Was it with you that I had the "Zhang Cuishan Great-level potential" debate? There I proposed, with previous information from Athena, that the way martial artists make a huge improvement is by opening up important meridians/channels in their body, which is extremely difficult. They will be around the same level for 20, 30 years, but the moment they open up new channels, their power will dramatically increase overnight. So in those 20, 30 years of practice, they're working towards that moment of breakthrough.

This way was how Shi Potian, Zhang Wuji, Duan Yu (I think), Xuzhu, and Di Yun got uber powerful in their respective eras.

For the old Greats, I guess they had their breakthrough early in life.

[tape]

Yeah I think it was us that had the discussion. Your theory fleshes out why a breakpoint would exist, but I wonder why JY never elaborated on this issue. It'd be really, really easy for him to just include a line to say the Greats are uber fast/strong due to having opened up their meridians over the years.

I don't know a thing about meridians/channels, but I wonder if it could be a complex network where opening up certain passage ways would allow your inner strength to flow many times more efficiently, which is what the Greats did, while lower level fighters continuously open redundant ones that only increase their efficiency by a little bit.

The only thing I don't like about this theory is that it reminds me of TVBish and movie-ish wuxia, where a character with crappy kungfu meets a strange old man that says, "Hey, let me open up your Ren Du 2 passages and you are now stronger than people training all their lives!"

[PJ]

Yeah I think it was us that had the discussion. Your theory fleshes out why a breakpoint would exist, but I wonder why JY never elaborated on this issue. It'd be really, really easy for him to just include a line to say the Greats are uber fast/strong due to having opened up their meridians over the years.

I think there are little examples of this scattered throughout JY universe. I'll pay more attention to it in the future.

The only thing I don't like about this theory is that it reminds me of TVBish and movie-ish wuxia, where a character with crappy kungfu meets a strange old man that says, "Hey, let me open up your Ren Du 2 passages and you are now stronger than people training all their lives!"

It's not quite that convenient. In JY universe, how meridians get opened is usually by having A LOT of internal energy and using a special way (read: freak accident) of driving your qi to break through the meridians. Like ZWJ, IIRC he did it when he had too much qi trapped inside the bag, which was flowing wildly and happen to flow to the right place to open up the meridian. Similarly Di Yun was getting choked by his enemy and his qi was trapped inside, then flowed to the right place. Shi Potian was also having problems with his qi, which got all smoothened-out when Zhan Fei hit him.

Although the main characters mostly got there by way of freak accidents, I don't think it's always necessary. We know Main characters have more luck, and freak accidents are reserved for them. Other characters will have to get there through hard work (or through less-freakish luck).

[Ken Cheng]

I think there are little examples of this scattered throughout JY universe. I'll pay more attention to it in the future.



It's not quite that convenient. In JY universe, how meridians get opened is usually by having A LOT of internal energy and using a special way (read: freak accident) of driving your qi to break through the meridians. Like ZWJ, IIRC he did it when he had too much qi trapped inside the bag, which was flowing wildly and happen to flow to the right place to open up the meridian. Similarly Di Yun was getting choked by his enemy and his qi was trapped inside, then flowed to the right place. Shi Potian was also having problems with his qi, which got all smoothened-out when Zhan Fei hit him.

Although the main characters mostly got there by way of freak accidents, I don't think it's always necessary. We know Main characters have more luck, and freak accidents are reserved for them. Other characters will have to get there through hard work (or through less-freakish luck).

"Freak accidents" - it's kind of like how comic book superheroes often get their powers. Peter Parker would not have become Spider-Man if he hadn't been bitten by that radioactive spider. The Incredible Hulk would never have come into being had Dr. Bruce Banner not been subjected to high doses of gamma radiation during an atomic weapons test. Barry Allen would not have become the Flash had a bolt of lightning not stricken a cabinet full of chemicals that splashed upon him.

[kyss of the sword]

zhuo zhiruo was a LHC type fighter where she had superior techniques that allowed her to defeat stronger opponents even through she had weaker inner power.

[Ken Cheng]

zhuo zhiruo was a LHC type fighter where she had superior techniques that allowed her to defeat stronger opponents even through she had weaker inner power.

Well, not *really*. What she had was a carefully crafted illusion that could take advantage of the unprepared. Truly great fighters would see through her tricks and counter her rather easily.

[Ian Liew]

"Freak accidents" - it's kind of like how comic book superheroes often get their powers. Peter Parker would not have become Spider-Man if he hadn't been bitten by that radioactive spider. The Incredible Hulk would never have come into being had Dr. Bruce Banner not been subjected to high doses of gamma radiation during an atomic weapons test. Barry Allen would not have become the Flash had a bolt of lightning not stricken a cabinet full of chemicals that splashed upon him.

Reminds me of a quote from one of my old favourite comic series - Legion of Superheroes. Karate Kid is trapped in a machine with other Legionnaires which saps their will and powers. He struggles to break free and says to his wife "Your powers, the others.. all inborn or accidents. I built mine, every day of my life, and no machine can take them away" and proceeds to break free, although he did end up dying a few panels later. He was an exception, but every other member of the Legion either got their powers through freak accidents, or had those powers due to the racial origin. Thankfully in wuxia quite a few people actually trained really hard for their abilities too.