OK...I've finally found a wuxia character even more annoying than LDG and LCY

[Doc Kwok]

I can understand thinking this about Wai Siu Bo, but what did Emperor K'ang Hsi do wrong? The emperor was one of the most ethical people in the story.

He was, all in all, a benevolent ruler, but I don't find him all that ethical at a personal level. e.g.

• The way he dealt with Oboi wasn't particularly honourable.
• When WXB 'rescued' the 3 members of the Mu family, KX suggested that he kill a few royal guards in front of them to earn their trust. WXB took pity on the guards, and when some of the Empress Dowager's eunuchs conveniently turned up to take him, he substituted them instead.
• He didn't bat an eyelid at hearing WXB killing the real Xiaoguizi or lying about killing off a maid.
• He completely ignored what his father said about the Manchus retreating to where they came from if they could not be of benefit to the population (to his credit, his rule did benefit them, but he obviously meant to stay whether or not they were, out of ambition). He also tried to burn his bridges by destroying the 42 sutras (not a wise move in retrospect, considering what happened to the Qing dynasty later).
• He actually felt thankful to the fake empress dowager for killing off Consort Donggo and her son and thereby paving his way to becoming emperor, despite her killing off his true mother, driving away his father and imprisoning the real Empress Dowager. To his credit though, he didn't let himself think too deeply along those lines.

One of the themes of DOMD is the balance between Kang Xi the person and Kang Xi the emperor, and in the relationship between WXB and KX as both personal friend and ruler-subject. In both cases, there is a marked slide towards the latter in both cases as the story progresses until it becomes the dominant factor with only a vestige of the former remaining. This is generally not dealt with well in adaptations.

[pannonian]

He was, all in all, a benevolent ruler, but I don't find him all that ethical at a personal level. e.g.

• The way he dealt with Oboi wasn't particularly honourable.
• When WXB 'rescued' the 3 members of the Mu family, KX suggested that he kill a few royal guards in front of them to earn their trust. WXB took pity on the guards, and when some of the Empress Dowager's eunuchs conveniently turned up to take him, he substituted them instead.
• He didn't bat an eyelid at hearing WXB killing the real Xiaoguizi or lying about killing off a maid.
• He completely ignored what his father said about the Manchus retreating to where they came from if they could not be of benefit to the population (to his credit, his rule did benefit them, but he obviously meant to stay whether or not they were, out of ambition). He also tried to burn his bridges by destroying the 42 sutras (not a wise move in retrospect, considering what happened to the Qing dynasty later).
• He actually felt thankful to the fake empress dowager for killing off Consort Donggo and her son and thereby paving his way to becoming emperor, despite her killing off his true mother, driving away his father and imprisoning the real Empress Dowager. To his credit though, he didn't let himself think too deeply along those lines.

One of the themes of DOMD is the balance between Kang Xi the person and Kang Xi the emperor, and in the relationship between WXB and KX as both personal friend and ruler-subject. In both cases, there is a marked slide towards the latter in both cases as the story progresses until it becomes the dominant factor with only a vestige of the former remaining. This is generally not dealt with well in adaptations.

"To a tyrant or an imperial city, nothing is inconsistent which is expedient."
- Euphemus of Athens, quoted by Thucydides.

When one has reached a certain level of power, ethical compromises are made, but they are not considered compromises in light of the greater objective, which is the attainment of and usage of power.

[PJ]

"To a tyrant or an imperial city, nothing is inconsistent which is expedient."
- Euphemus of Athens, quoted by Thucydides.

When one has reached a certain level of power, ethical compromises are made, but they are not considered compromises in light of the greater objective, which is the attainment of and usage of power.

Which is why power must be limited.

[Ian Liew]

"To a tyrant or an imperial city, nothing is inconsistent which is expedient."
- Euphemus of Athens, quoted by Thucydides.

When one has reached a certain level of power, ethical compromises are made, but they are not considered compromises in light of the greater objective, which is the attainment of and usage of power.

It is always one of the tragedies of leadership when the pursuit of power becomes an objective in itself, rather than a means to some greater objective.

[Ken Cheng]

Towards the end, Ah Ohr became a much more empathetic character. She seemed to find happiness at last after marrying into Wai Siu Bo's family. Don't misinterpret that: it's not that she fell madly in love with Wai Siu Bo (although she learned to accept him). From the way I see it, what Ah Ohr found was a sense of belonging (something she previously lacked). She seemed to develop a strong sense of kinship with her fellow Madame Wais. For the first time, Ah Ohr seemed to belong to a real family, and that sense of sisterhood with her fellow wives seemed to sustain her.

[Suet Seung]

Kangxi was much in love with his Empress. He even put up with their incompetant son as the Crown prince for so many years because she died in childbirth for him until he could take it no more and got rid of once and for all.

I wouldn't say once and for all. He imprisoned his son once, let him out for a while and then really shut him out of his life the 2nd time.



Anyway...was it ever defined clearly who was WSB's wife and who was his mistresses/concubines (in terms of rank)?

[Ken Cheng]

Anyway...was it ever defined clearly who was WSB's wife and who was his mistresses/concubines (in terms of rank)?

It's a bit unclear. By Wai Siu Bo's own reckoning, Ah Ohr was his main wife, but he also always referred to Fong Yee as his "head wife." Then again, Soo Cheun seemed to be the one who called the shots.

[Ace High]

At the end of the novel, WXB's wives ranking were determined according to age.

[Doc Kwok]

At the end of the novel, WXB's wives ranking were determined according to age.

That was merely to determine how they should address each other, not to establish their social ranking.

Being the oldest and strongest fighter, Su Quan did seem to act as the unofficial leader though. WXB cared for Shuang'er and Ah Ke the most though.

[Ace High]

That was merely to determine how they should address each other, not to establish their social ranking.

Being the oldest and strongest fighter, Su Quan did seem to act as the unofficial leader though. WXB cared for Shuang'er and Ah Ke the most though.

By the end of the novel, Ah Ke kinda fade into the background with Shuang Er and Su Quan taking the spotlight.

[Doc Kwok]

By the end of the novel, Ah Ke kinda fade into the background with Shuang Er and Su Quan taking the spotlight.

Yeah - in fact, all the wives apart from those two faded into the background. Except maybe for Zeng Rou - because she was never in the spotlight in the first place . I do sometimes wonder what the point of her was - you could easily take her (and the entire Wang Wu sect, for that matter) out of the story, and it would't matter one bit. Maybe it's just to pad the number of wives to seven?

[Doc Kwok]

Towards the end, Ah Ohr became a much more empathetic character. She seemed to find happiness at last after marrying into Wai Siu Bo's family. Don't misinterpret that: it's not that she fell madly in love with Wai Siu Bo (although she learned to accept him). From the way I see it, what Ah Ohr found was a sense of belonging (something she previously lacked). She seemed to develop a strong sense of kinship with her fellow Madame Wais. For the first time, Ah Ohr seemed to belong to a real family, and that sense of sisterhood with her fellow wives seemed to sustain her.

She had also matured considerably. She realised she was far better off with WXB than with Zheng Keshuang when Taiwan fell to the Qing troops, and was deeply ashamed of having been so infatuated with him despite knowing deep down that he was a spineless, useless person with nothing going for him other than a pretty face all along.

[smurf120]

I thought Ah Ke realized Zheng Keshuang was spineless and useless when he tried to sell her to WXB in exchange for his life.

[Doc Kwok]

I thought Ah Ke realized Zheng Keshuang was spineless and useless when he tried to sell her to WXB in exchange for his life.

Here is the relevant passage from the novel:

只有阿珂默默無言，心想當年若是嫁了鄭克塽，勢須隨他一同被俘，去了北京，亡國妾婦，難免大受屈辱。當日眼 見鄭克塽乘小艇離通吃島，於他生死存亡就已渾不關心，此時聽到他失國降敵，更不在意下，回憶前塵，自己竟能 如此為他風采容貌所迷，明知此人是個沒骨頭、沒出息的紈褲子弟，自己偏生就如瞎了眼睛一般，對他一往情深， 此刻想來，兀自深感羞慚。

Only Ah Ke remained silent, thinking that if she had married Zheng Keshuang that year, she would have been captured with him and taken to Beijing, where she would have to endure great humiliation as a concubine of a beaten kingdom. When she saw Zheng Keshuang leaving Tonghe island by boat that day, she no longer cared about his life or death; upon hearing of the loss of his kingdom and his surrender, she cared even less. Thinking back, she still felt deeply ashamed that she would be mesmerised by his handsome looks, despite knowing that this person was a boneless, prospectless spoilt brat, it was as if she were blind and devoted all her love towards him.

[Ace High]

Yeah - in fact, all the wives apart from those two faded into the background. Except maybe for Zeng Rou - because she was never in the spotlight in the first place . I do sometimes wonder what the point of her was - you could easily take her (and the entire Wang Wu sect, for that matter) out of the story, and it would't matter one bit. Maybe it's just to pad the number of wives to seven?

I totally agree with you. Maybe her purpose was to show that WXB can be heroic and a womanizer and the same time?

[AwesomeOpossum]

Just thoughts on these points about Kangxi...

[*]The way he dealt with Oboi wasn't particularly honourable.

Oboi displayed an interest in killing Kangxi and overthrowing him, becoming the emperor himself. If that doesn't warrant some vicious planning on Kangxi's part, I don't know what does. You can't expect Kangxi to just roll over and die, do you? At the time, he was a child. He couldn't defeat Oboi in a gentleman's fistfight. I actually admired his tactics.

[*]When WXB 'rescued' the 3 members of the Mu family, KX suggested that he kill a few royal guards in front of them to earn their trust. WXB took pity on the guards, and when some of the Empress Dowager's eunuchs conveniently turned up to take him, he substituted them instead.

Unfortunately, this is how most Emperor's work. They don't particularly have great feelings of empathy towards lower servants. Sad, but true. You can see this even with the presidents of the United States. Every country's rulers pretty much lack empathy towards people of lower rank that they aren't personally acquainted with.

[*]He didn't bat an eyelid at hearing WXB killing the real Xiaoguizi or lying about killing off a maid.

Again, see the logic of the previous point. As a ruler of such a huge and powerful country, unless you're talking about a ton of deaths, the death of a very talented person, or the death of someone you personally know, you tend to be very insensitive.

[*]He completely ignored what his father said about the Manchus retreating to where they came from if they could not be of benefit to the population (to his credit, his rule did benefit them, but he obviously meant to stay whether or not they were, out of ambition). He also tried to burn his bridges by destroying the 42 sutras (not a wise move in retrospect, considering what happened to the Qing dynasty later).

I would've probably done the same thing if I were him. I don't know too many people who WOULD think to themselves, "You know, I doubt this dynasty my family has paved the way for is going to be any good. I think I'm just going to give it all up and retreat. I doubt I'll do anything good anyways." I don't think that really would've been an option for him anyways.

[*]He actually felt thankful to the fake empress dowager for killing off Consort Donggo and her son and thereby paving his way to becoming emperor, despite her killing off his true mother, driving away his father and imprisoning the real Empress Dowager. To his credit though, he didn't let himself think too deeply along those lines.

I actually find it amazing (and admirable) that he can keep his cool and realize that, in a roundabout way, this woman actually managed to let him become emperor. In many ways, the fake empress dowager was more of a mother to him than his true mother. She gave him valuable advice (saving his life in the case of Oboi), and was with him ever since he was very young. It would be only natural that he would be more attached to her than his mother that died before he could really get to know her. As for his father, he actually was more angry about her doing that to his father than the other stuff. I actually think his reaction was much more intellectual, instead of the overly-passionate ones you see with hot-blooded people who immediately go and chop her head off without any regard for the past good she may have done.

[Ian Liew]

Just thoughts on these points about Kangxi...

Oboi displayed an interest in killing Kangxi and overthrowing him, becoming the emperor himself. If that doesn't warrant some vicious planning on Kangxi's part, I don't know what does. You can't expect Kangxi to just roll over and die, do you? At the time, he was a child. He couldn't defeat Oboi in a gentleman's fistfight. I actually admired his tactics.

I thought they were referring to how Kangxi arranged for Oboi to be assassinated in his cell by WXB.

[AwesomeOpossum]

I thought they were referring to how Kangxi arranged for Oboi to be assassinated in his cell by WXB.

Oh, they were referring to that? LOL I thought they were talking about stabbing Oboi in the back and attacking him while pretending it was just a friendly wrestling match.

Yeah, well I guess you could think of it this way? Oboi was taking away precious food resources in jail while that money could be used for better things? XD Also, it didn't help that he was giving his jail handlers life in hell. I dunno, just in general, I tended not to feel bad about Oboi in DOMD. He had it coming to him, really.

[smurf120]

I never understood WXB's fascination with Ah Ke until now...

In the translations we are up to the part when WXB first meets Ah Ke. So far he has been "locked up" at the monastery for months, no alcohol, no meat, no dice, too lazy for kung fu, and he's undergoing puberty with hormones raging when he first lays eyes on Ah Ke. There was really no hope for him....

[Ken Cheng]

I never understood WXB's fascination with Ah Ke until now...

In the translations we are up to the part when WXB first meets Ah Ke. So far he has been "locked up" at the monastery for months, no alcohol, no meat, no dice, too lazy for kung fu, and he's undergoing puberty with hormones raging when he first lays eyes on Ah Ke. There was really no hope for him....

What's sort of sad is (at least if the 1984 adaptation did this accurately) that Seung-yee was right there all along...available and likely willing, and not only was he practically blind to her presence (at least beyond being bodyguard/assistant), but she even abetted him in the pursuit of Ah Ohr.