A question for the formless theory experts

[anurman]

Up up up.... Very interesting thread about formlessness.

So from what I gather is the following:
I will use the sword as example:
I hope Leviathan can enlighten me on this subject.

Stage 1: The martial artist "glues" his stances together, doesn't really place emphasis on what the "right" order of the stances.
For instance what Feng Qingyang told Linghu Chong for the first time.

Stage 2: The martial artist "forgets" the stances in his sword, but in his heart he still has techniques. Dugu Jiujian in the hands of Linghu Chong and Feng Qingyang. The sword is still present. Searching for flaws in opponent, right?

Stage 3 : The Taiji Sword of Zhang Sanfeng, both techniques in heart and sword are gone. The sword has become infinite and boundless.

Stage 4: The martial artist becomes the sword, they form an unity. Sword is me, I am a sword. Sort final years of Dugu Jiubai and perhaps even Tianshan Tonglao, right?

Stage 5: Is the stage of being "void." The awareness of being unaware. Nameless Old Monk.


My questions are:
-Where does Liumai Shenjian belong to?
That is: Martial artist doesn't have a sword, but there stances within the invisible sword and heart.

-What stage does the Heavy Iron Sword belong to?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember there are any stance in LMSJ manuals. There are six swords with different characteristics, but there are no stances in manuals. However in fights, LMSJ practicioner can perform unlimited stances just like DY. So I think LMSJ belongs to stage 4.

[Ren Wo Xing]

As stated in the novel, there is a complete set of sword techniques inherent in 6MSJ.

[anurman]

I read the novel again at part when Duan Zhengmin takes Duan Yu to Heavenly Dragon Temple until part when Duan Yu uses LMSJ against JMZ. My DGSD novel is translation of 1st edition, may be there are some changes at that part.

From what I read, LMSJ manuals consist of six paintings of human body. In that paintings, there are some dots explaining human artery, there are some lines about internal energy movements and there are some explanations. I can't see descriptions about stances here.

Duan Yu looks at the paintings, his internal energy flows according to the lines at the paintings, and then he sees the battle between 6 monks againts JMZ. The 6 monks use some stances in that battle. Yes there are stances, but I don't know where they come from .

But I guess, even if there are some stances in that paintings, that stances are only about general explanation about how to move your internal energy. It can lead to unlimited variations. So I still think LMSJ belong to stage 4.

[Ace High]

I read the novel again at part when Duan Zhengmin takes Duan Yu to Heavenly Dragon Temple until part when Duan Yu uses LMSJ against JMZ. My DGSD novel is translation of 1st edition, may be there are some changes at that part.

From what I read, LMSJ manuals consist of six paintings of human body. In that paintings, there are some dots explaining human artery, there are some lines about internal energy movements and there are some explanations. I can't see descriptions about stances here.

Duan Yu looks at the paintings, his internal energy flows according to the lines at the paintings, and then he sees the battle between 6 monks againts JMZ. The 6 monks use some stances in that battle. Yes there are stances, but I don't know where they come from .

But I guess, even if there are some stances in that paintings, that stances are only about general explanation about how to move your internal energy. It can lead to unlimited variations. So I still think LMSJ belong to stage 4.

Excerpt from Chapter 10 Sword Qi and Lines of Jade Smoke, TLBB

After watching for over ten stances, he suddenly realized, "I know! That’s Master Ben Guan’s Middle Pouring Sword technique!" It is totally identical to the technique which was drawn on his manuscript. He gently unscrolled the manuscript teaching the Middle Pouring Sword technique, comparing the movements of the smoke to the sword techniques contained in the manuscript. With it serving as reference, he now understood everything he saw, including Ben Can’s Lesser Marsh Sword techniques. The techniques of the Middle Pouring Sword were majestic and imposing, with large, grand motions; in contrast, the Lesser Marsh Sword flickered here and there, its changes and movements small and refined.
.
.
.
He was not aware that Duan Yu was not able to memorize all of the complicated changes and transformations within the sword techniques of the Six Meridians Divine Swords, and was simply randomly piercing and stabbing about in a critical situation, much less inventing new stances on the spot.

There are stances (sword techniques) in the manual, and the six monks were using it during their fought against JMZ. Duan Yu made random movements because he couldn't memorize all the sword techniques in such short time. His situation was just as described by Feng Qing Yang:

Excerpt from Chapter 10 Sword Training, XAJH

When an ordinary person who has never learned any martial arts waves a sword wildly, no matter how knowledgeable you are, you still wouldn’t be able to predict where his next thrust or chop will land. Even someone with the most advanced sword skills still wouldn’t be able to defeat his move. Because there is no move, it’s impossible to break the move. If this person has never learned any martial arts, then even though he doesn’t have a sword move, others can still knock him down easily.

That's way eventhough he has LMSJ, Duan Yu still got captured very easily by JMZ.

[Ken Cheng]

When an ordinary person who has never learned any martial arts waves a sword wildly, no matter how knowledgeable you are, you still wouldn’t be able to predict where his next thrust or chop will land. Even someone with the most advanced sword skills still wouldn’t be able to defeat his move. Because there is no move, it’s impossible to break the move. If this person has never learned any martial arts, then even though he doesn’t have a sword move, others can still knock him down easily.

The final sentence of this statement seems to contradict the argument of the first three sentences.

[tape]

The final sentence of this statement seems to contradict the argument of the first three sentences.

He's saying not all "no moves" are equal -- the guy who just randomly waves has a really crappy no move, while an expert who has learned martial arts and moves on to the no move stage has one that is actually useful.

[tape]

This makes me wonder what formless is in terms of palm techniques. Take the Dragon Palms for instance -- there are distinct motions before performing many of the moves, presumably because it aids in the technique of generating the inner power behind the attack (otherwise it would be silly to draw a circle with one palm and attack with the other).

So is it possible to fight "formlessly" if dragon palms was your base? Do you eventually learn to generate just as much inner power behind each strike without the motions once you master it? Are the eighteen different palms just the easiest motions to generate that much power, and a true master can randomly hack and slice with the strength of the original palms?

Hong Qigong, Guo Jing, and Xiao Feng all use specific stances of the Dragon Palms still, so either they are not in the formless stage, or the original stances are still more powerful than anything they have tried to create on their own.

[Ken Cheng]

He's saying not all "no moves" are equal -- the guy who just randomly waves has a really crappy no move, while an expert who has learned martial arts and moves on to the no move stage has one that is actually useful.

I actually think that Hui Juk's completely YOLO random go move that totally accomplished what go masters such as Deun Yin Hing and Deun Yu couldn't (resolve Mo Ngai Tze's go puzzle) represents the ultimate expression of formlessness.

[Dirt]

Let us talk about it. What does it really mean?

[FeilongZ]

@ Ken Cheng:

Please merge the old thread with this thread, so we could have a headstart for this discussion.

https://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthr...theory-experts

[Dirt]

@ Ken Cheng:

Please merge the old thread with this thread, so we could have a headstart for this discussion.

https://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthr...theory-experts

Esta bien.

[FeilongZ]

Formlessness martial arts:

An example is Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do:
"Be like water": being unpredictable, spontaneous, flexible and also evasive – just like the flow of water.

Formlessness is adaptability, unpredictability, and empty-minded where you do not think of your moves and execute them with zero hesitation.

[EdenResident]

Formlessness is NOT Randomness. If a beginner swings his sword around like an idiot, that's not formlessness. That's randomness. Any decent sect disciple would be able to defeat that stupid beginner easily.

Formlessness is when you still try to deliberately strike your opponents at his vital points but you do it not according to any pre-defined moves. For example, stance A is used to stab the throat and stance B is used to slash the stomach. With forms, you carry out stance B fully, let your opponent block it, then move to stance A to stab his throat. With formlessness, you start with the slash but halfway there, you somehow switch it to a stab. Your attack is a lot more unpredictable and harder to block. It is also a lot more fluid and gives your opponent less time to think. The crucial point here is you need to be very skillful to change from the slash to the stab halfway. Before you can achieve that, you must have practiced stance A and stance B to perfection. You can't just perform that formless move as a beginner.

Also formlessness isn't automatically better than forms. Formlessness is the progression within one person. It doesn't mean once you've reached formlessness, you automatically defeat any opponent with forms. A "form" fighter with superior speed, strength, endurance will still defeat a "formlessness" fighter who's inferior in those areas.

An analogy is arts. Jackson Pollock's paintings can be considered formlessness and they sell for a shitload of money. But Old Masters' paintings, even with their rigid forms, still sell for a lot more. It also depends on the individual painter's skills. A Classicism painter with better skills will outsell an Abstract Expressionism painter with less skills (without getting into the technical definition of what those "skills" are).

[Dirt]

IMHO, Yideng reached formlessness with his Yiyang Zhi.

[CC]

So from what I gather is the following:
I will use the sword as example:
I hope Leviathan can enlighten me on this subject.

Stage 1: The martial artist "glues" his stances together, doesn't really place emphasis on what the "right" order of the stances.
For instance what Feng Qingyang told Linghu Chong for the first time.

Stage 2: The martial artist "forgets" the stances in his sword, but in his heart he still has techniques. Dugu Jiujian in the hands of Linghu Chong and Feng Qingyang. The sword is still present. Searching for flaws in opponent, right?

Stage 3 : The Taiji Sword of Zhang Sanfeng, both techniques in heart and sword are gone. The sword has become infinite and boundless.

Stage 4: The martial artist becomes the sword, they form an unity. Sword is me, I am a sword. Sort final years of Dugu Jiubai and perhaps even Tianshan Tonglao, right?

Stage 5: Is the stage of being "void." The awareness of being unaware. Nameless Old Monk.


My questions are:
-Where does Liumai Shenjian belong to?
That is: Martial artist doesn't have a sword, but there stances within the invisible sword and heart.

-What stage does the Heavy Iron Sword belong to?

Why concentrate on the formless chi of 6MSJ instead of its actual deployment? Instead think of it like giving a Super Sword or Ultra Lightsabre or some high tech weapon in the users hands.

So 6MSJ in pre-Shaolin fight Duan Yu is Stage 1 or 0.5

6MSJ in mid-novel LHC is stage 2.

6MSJ in Sweeper Monk's hands goes to stage 5.

6MSJ in itself should not have a 'stage'.