Population of Wulin compared to what is seen

[PalletTownAcademy]

Recently I've been slightly disillusioned regarding the rarity of characters Jin Yong wouldn't hesitate to praise as first class top tier "gaoshous" in his Song Dynasty novels.

I'm referring to people at the level around. . . say insignificant Xuan generation monks, the three junior Great Evils, Duan family followers, Murong family followers, Beggars Union elders, LOCH/ROCH anti-Han lackeys . . etc, just under the truly elite level ranging from god tier/protagonists to the likes of MRF, YTZ, DCQ, DYQ, Ben generation monks, GSC, QZ disciples, HYS's disciples, LMC.

HSDS has like . . a billion characters who are probably around this sub-elite level. Even random completely insignificant characters like the descendents of LO/ROCH Dali Kingdom ministers are described to be "first class experts".

Since the novels DGSD, LOCH, and ROCH only sample a small small portion of Wulin, I'm starting to feel that there may be hundreds of people at this sub-elite level. For example, at the gathering of 36 Caves and 72 Islands, it feels as if many among the cave leaders and island leaders (not to mention Sword God) are well within this level. The fact that the Jurchens and Mongols are seemingly able to hire such skilled people with little significance otherwise (no mention whatsoever outside of their service to anti-Han governments) must mean that these people aren't too hard to find. Considering that the vast majority of Wulin is unexplored in the universe of the novels, there really must be hundreds in DGSD or Condor Trilogy at any given time who can take on . .say . . Yue Lao San in a fight.

Wulin has many hundreds, if not thousands, of individual schools and sects, so is it possible that people at this sub-elite level are much more common than previously thought and not worthy of the praise (first class, top tier, extremely skilled) that JY gives them. Or is the population of Wulin itself so great that even the top one thousand should be considered to be first class experts?

[devilz91]

I would consider all the Xuan generation monks to be first class fighters. Dunno if the ones below them were named as such, I know MRF was also named a first class fighter and he pwns everyone on that list. HSDS did have an abnormal amount of first class fighters but that's because it explored a very large part of the wulin. And yes I agree there's hundreds of people who can take YLS, but she wouldn't even be a first class fighter in her own novel. It's probably safe to assume though that in any given novel there's quite a few first class fighters that never appear.

[Ken Cheng]

The average wulin redshirt is likely below the level of Gwok Siu Teen.

[Ren Ying Ying]

Think about it like professional sports. Think of all the people who play soccer/football. But anyone who can make it to a professional league is pretty much considered "first" compared to the rest of the population even if they are far from being considered the "elite" in the world. If somebody (non-relative) actually knows your name...you could be considered as pretty accomplished.

[tape]

I think XAJH gives a much more in depth look of wulin, and is a much more enjoyable read if you're trying to go for the jianghu feel.

We're introduced to the Lin family, who are well respected and are quite a force in their surrounding districts, both because of their fame and martial arts. Lin Zhennan is likely well above average, and Lin Pingzi is probably the epitome of a average fighter (possibly on the higher end).

Then you see the disciples of Yu Canghai, and they are extremely powerful compared to the Lins, and from the looks of it, could easily be running the town if they chose to. Yet between disciple and Yu Canghai himself, there exists a huge, huge gap, and we see that Yu is on a lower tier from even the actual good fighters of the realm.

Next are the five mountain Sword alliance leaders, who are yet again insignificant compared to their leader Zuo, who is himself weaker than Ren Woxing, Fang Zheng, etc before the otherworldly masters like DFBB and FQY come into play.

It really is fascinating, and we see that jianghu, the people within it, and their levels of martial arts are hugely different. Much more interesting than in the Condor trilogy, where it seems you only have really scrubby people, people around the Quanzhen master level, and then the Greats.

[Ken Cheng]

Much more interesting than in the Condor trilogy, where it seems you only have really scrubby people, people around the Quanzhen master level, and then the Greats.

I think that's an inaccurate generalization.

Let's just take the LOCH-era fighters.

Level 0 would be noncombatants: people such as Gwok Jing and Yeung Hong's mothers, who could be easily bullied by the average SPCNETter.

Level 1: soldiers. Can bully ordinary people pretty easily, but like sitting ducks compared to...

Level 2: Gwok Siu Teen and Yeung Teet Sum, who could mow down soldiers by the dozen, but were helpless against people at the level of...

Level 3: Yeung Hong and Muk Lim Chi, each shown to be significantly more formidable than the likes of Yeung Teet Sum.

Level 4: Neither Yeung Hong nor Muk Lim Chi, however, would likely last long against the Yellow River 4 Ghosts, who in turn were afraid of...

Level 5: The Gong Nam 7 Freaks, and within their ranks, there was quite a discrepancy between Ohr Jen Ngok and Hon Siu Ying. I'm guessing Elders Pang, Gan, and Lo from the Beggar's Union were around this tier as well.

Level 6: No Freak was able to singlehandedly stand against people from this level, which included Au Yeung Hak, Ling Tze Seung Yan, Leung Tze Yung, Sa Tung Teen, and Pang Lin Fu. As was the case with the Freaks, the top members of this tier (Au Yeung) were measurably better than those at the lower end (Pang). The weaker members of the Cheun Jen 7 Disciples such as Gok Dai Tung and Sheun But Yee were in this tier as well.

Level 7: Mui Chiu Fung, Ma Yuk, and Yau Chui Gei occupied this level, and were heads-and-shoulders above people in Level 6.

Level 8: OK...now here's where we have a huge gap. Level 8 is about where Gwok Jing ended up at the end of LOCH. I think he occupied this level all by his little lonesome.

Level 9: The Greats. The gap between 8 and 9 was probably as big as the gap from 7 to 8.

That's nine distinct levels in LOCH, and within each level, I can further subdivide into two or three sub-tiers if I wanted to. That's a fairly good distribution of martial arts levels.

[PalletTownAcademy]

I think that's an inaccurate generalization.

Let's just take the LOCH-era fighters.

Level 0 would be noncombatants: people such as Gwok Jing and Yeung Hong's mothers, who could be easily bullied by the average SPCNETter.

Level 1: soldiers. Can bully ordinary people pretty easily, but like sitting ducks compared to...

Level 2: Gwok Siu Teen and Yeung Teet Sum, who could mow down soldiers by the dozen, but were helpless against people at the level of...

Level 3: Yeung Hong and Muk Lim Chi, each shown to be significantly more formidable than the likes of Yeung Teet Sum.

Level 4: Neither Yeung Hong nor Muk Lim Chi, however, would likely last long against the Yellow River 4 Ghosts, who in turn were afraid of...

Level 5: The Gong Nam 7 Freaks, and within their ranks, there was quite a discrepancy between Ohr Jen Ngok and Hon Siu Ying. I'm guessing Elders Pang, Gan, and Lo from the Beggar's Union were around this tier as well.

Level 6: No Freak was able to singlehandedly stand against people from this level, which included Au Yeung Hak, Ling Tze Seung Yan, Leung Tze Yung, Sa Tung Teen, and Pang Lin Fu. As was the case with the Freaks, the top members of this tier 9 (Au Yeung) were measurably better than those at the lower end (Pang). The weaker members of the Cheun Jen 7 Disciples such as Gok Dai Tung and Sheun But Yee were in this tier as well.

Level 7: Mui Chiu Fung, Ma Yuk, and Yau Chui Gei occupied this level, and were heads-and-shoulders above people in Level 6.

Level 8: OK...now here's where we have a huge gap. Level 8 is about where Gwok Jing ended up at the end of LOCH. I think he occupied this level all by his little lonesome.

Level 9: The Greats. The gap between 8 and 9 was probably as big as the gap from 7 to 8.

That's nine distinct levels in LOCH, and within each level, I can further subdivide into two or three sub-tiers if I wanted to. That's a fairly good distribution of martial arts levels.

Seeing as how Level 5 and above are all described to be experts, really makes one wonder how big Wulin is.

The Jiangnan 7 Freaks were described to be the best in Jiangnan, which was a small part of Song China. The possibility of hundreds of people being at Level 5 and 6 (Duan family followers in LOCH are probably around there too) kind of cheapens the praise Jin Yong gives these characters.

[Banh Mi]

Seeing as how Level 5 and above are all described to be experts, really makes one wonder how big Wulin is.

The Jiangnan 7 Freaks were described to be the best in Jiangnan, which was a small part of Song China. The possibility of hundreds of people being at Level 5 and 6 (Duan family followers in LOCH are probably around there too) kind of cheapens the praise Jin Yong gives these characters.

I'd rather think of it in terms of years and quality. 1-4 are people who either didn't spend all their lives training, or were training only basic techniques.
5-7 involved people who trained all their lives but weren't very talented, or didn't learn very powerful stuff.
8+ are either extremely talented individuals, or people who have trained extensively with very elite calibre skills.

You would also tend to notice powerful people more since it's the powerful ones that are going places doing things. Flunkies don't get to see the spotlight that often, or are busy working.

[PalletTownAcademy]

I'd rather think of it in terms of years and quality. 1-4 are people who either didn't spend all their lives training, or were training only basic techniques.
5-7 involved people who trained all their lives but weren't very talented, or didn't learn very powerful stuff.
8+ are either extremely talented individuals, or people who have trained extensively with very elite calibre skills.

You would also tend to notice powerful people more since it's the powerful ones that are going places doing things. Flunkies don't get to see the spotlight that often, or are busy working.

The Freaks had day jobs, so they couldn't have trained that much.

Nevertheless, they were most definitely regarded as experts and became famous by taking down 100 members of Wulin.

[Ian Liew]

I thought Yang Kang would have been able to give one of the Yellow River Ghosts a decent fight even without having to resort to 9 Yin claws. Guo Jing held his own (although he was steadily losing) against the four ghosts and he probably wasn't a match for Yang Kang at that stage.

Lu Guanying would be around level 5, while his dad would be around... 6.5?

[tape]

I think that's an inaccurate generalization.

Your list is really stretched out and includes every character in order to create all those levels, and it's pretty easy to clump a few levels together. If every character from SPW were included, with the same relative differences you used, there would be tens of levels. LOCH just doesn't have enough character or explore then whole jianghu enough, and really only included characters that directly interacted with Guo Jing which explains why it seems so small.

And besides, in your list, I'd consider your first 5 levels as scrubby people, 6-7 as people around Quanzhen level, and 8+ as close to Greats level. It's only when you go in depth and try to be fair to the characters that you realize the 7 Freaks are actually rather powerful, but first impression-wise and feel-wise, it really does feel like those are the only three tiers that exist. In SPW, someone like Yu Canghai becomes pretty scrubby compared to the real powerhouses by the end of the novel, but he still doesn't "feel" scrubby for some reason. In LOCH, if you're not a Great or Guo Jing, you feel like a scrub. I don't know if that makes any sense.

[tape]

Let's just take the LOCH-era fighters.

Level 0 would be noncombatants: people such as Gwok Jing and Yeung Hong's mothers, who could be easily bullied by the average SPCNETter.

Level 1: soldiers. Can bully ordinary people pretty easily, but like sitting ducks compared to...

Level 2: Gwok Siu Teen and Yeung Teet Sum, who could mow down soldiers by the dozen, but were helpless against people at the level of...

Level 3: Yeung Hong and Muk Lim Chi, each shown to be significantly more formidable than the likes of Yeung Teet Sum.

Level 4: Neither Yeung Hong nor Muk Lim Chi, however, would likely last long against the Yellow River 4 Ghosts, who in turn were afraid of...

Level 5: The Gong Nam 7 Freaks, and within their ranks, there was quite a discrepancy between Ohr Jen Ngok and Hon Siu Ying. I'm guessing Elders Pang, Gan, and Lo from the Beggar's Union were around this tier as well.

Level 6: No Freak was able to singlehandedly stand against people from this level, which included Au Yeung Hak, Ling Tze Seung Yan, Leung Tze Yung, Sa Tung Teen, and Pang Lin Fu. As was the case with the Freaks, the top members of this tier (Au Yeung) were measurably better than those at the lower end (Pang). The weaker members of the Cheun Jen 7 Disciples such as Gok Dai Tung and Sheun But Yee were in this tier as well.

Level 7: Mui Chiu Fung, Ma Yuk, and Yau Chui Gei occupied this level, and were heads-and-shoulders above people in Level 6.

Level 8: OK...now here's where we have a huge gap. Level 8 is about where Gwok Jing ended up at the end of LOCH. I think he occupied this level all by his little lonesome.

Level 9: The Greats. The gap between 8 and 9 was probably as big as the gap from 7 to 8.

That's nine distinct levels in LOCH, and within each level, I can further subdivide into two or three sub-tiers if I wanted to. That's a fairly good distribution of martial arts levels.

Soldiers and noncombatants really aren't part of wulin, so I think it'd be fair to shave those two levels off. Guo/Yang I agree with is on a lower level than the rest and represent the people who train martial arts and have good physical conditioning, but have no real advanced techniques to speak of. The Ghosts also are not on a different level than Yang Kang.

The Jin flunkies and the Quanzhen masters have differences in skill, but in general are on the same level. That's not to say Qiu Chuji wouldn't beat some of the weaker Jin flunkies, but it's not huge enough to create another level. In SPW, if you were to create a whole level for any character that is demonstrably better than another/group of characters, there would be a much bigger list.

[devilz91]

I thought Yang Kang would have been able to give one of the Yellow River Ghosts a decent fight even without having to resort to 9 Yin claws. Guo Jing held his own (although he was steadily losing) against the four ghosts and he probably wasn't a match for Yang Kang at that stage.

Lu Guanying would be around level 5, while his dad would be around... 6.5?

That sounds about right. I would also put Ouyang Ke at 6.5.

If they were shown, XLN's master and QQC are prolly level 8 too.