GWM, Fok Do, and Dat Yee Ba vs. North Beggar Hung 7 Gung

[Ken Cheng]

If the Golden Wheel Monk and his two students, Fok Do and Dat Yee Ba, decided that their first strike against Chinese wulin was to murder North Beggar Hung 7 Gung (this obviously being before Hung 7 Gung's fatal final duel against West Poison Au Yeung Fung), would the Mongolian Imperial Scholar and his two disciples be able to overwhelm and kill the Nine-Fingered Divine Beggar, or would the old beggar still be too much for the three of them?

[Trien Chieu]

Not sure about whether they would be able to kill H7G, but...

[Ian Liew]

Not sure about whether they would be able to kill H7G, but...

"Last edited by Ken Cheng; 06-02-12 at 05:47 PM. Reason: Don't soapbox my thread, PLEASE. Either respond to the thread topic or start your own."

Something anti-Mongolian about how they are typically dishonourable and will gang up on H7G?

I think the Mongols might be able to force H7G to retreat, but probably not kill him. GWM was a dangerous enough opponent that H7G would have to give him undivided attention. Huo Du was (I think) a better fighter than Qiu Chuji, but having said that, someone like Huang Yaoshi could just swat Qiu away like a fly anyway. Daerba was a beast, but probably not much of a threat to someone like H7G. It's probably how many strokes could Huo and Daerba distract H7G for, and my guess is probably not many. Probably less than what Xiao Shuangzi, Yin Kexi and Nemo Singh could do vs Guo Jing, and we know in that scenario GJ could probably have escaped if it wasn't for Yang Guo.

If H7G could, like Guo Jing, take out Huo Du with one blast before the fight even starts, and have room to maneuver about, he might even win. If it was straight out 3 vs 1 at best they would make him retreat.

[Ken Cheng]

"Last edited by Ken Cheng; 06-02-12 at 05:47 PM. Reason: Don't soapbox my thread, PLEASE. Either respond to the thread topic or start your own."

Something anti-Mongolian about how they are typically dishonourable and will gang up on H7G?

Yes, unfortunately. Trien has had enough opportunities to air this grievance, and he's free to do so again, but not on a thread that isn't meant for that purpose.

[Dirt]

Hong Qi will have as much problem with Jinlun Guoshi as Yideng.

[Ian Liew]

Hong Qi will have as much problem with Jinlun Guoshi as Yideng.

Yideng's fight with Jinlun was 16 years later, though. I'm sure if he was 16 years younger Yideng wouldn't have struggled so much, not to mention Jinlun probably wasn't as powerful as he would be either - he'd be without his Dragon Elephant Prana thingie..

[Ken Cheng]

"Last edited by Ken Cheng; 06-02-12 at 05:47 PM. Reason: Don't soapbox my thread, PLEASE. Either respond to the thread topic or start your own."

Something anti-Mongolian about how they are typically dishonourable and will gang up on H7G?

I think the Mongols might be able to force H7G to retreat, but probably not kill him. GWM was a dangerous enough opponent that H7G would have to give him undivided attention. Huo Du was (I think) a better fighter than Qiu Chuji, but having said that, someone like Huang Yaoshi could just swat Qiu away like a fly anyway. Daerba was a beast, but probably not much of a threat to someone like H7G. It's probably how many strokes could Huo and Daerba distract H7G for, and my guess is probably not many. Probably less than what Xiao Shuangzi, Yin Kexi and Nemo Singh could do vs Guo Jing, and we know in that scenario GJ could probably have escaped if it wasn't for Yang Guo.

If H7G could, like Guo Jing, take out Huo Du with one blast before the fight even starts, and have room to maneuver about, he might even win. If it was straight out 3 vs 1 at best they would make him retreat.

This scenario here with Hung 7 Gung is indeed very similar to the scenario that Gwok Jing faced later in ROCH, except...

1. Hung 7 Gung's enemies would be fewer in both number and ability. Fok Do and Dat Yee Ba were only two more sets of helping hands for the Golden Wheel Monk (as opposed to four in the case of Gwok Jing, though I suppose Ma Gwong Jor barely counts), and Fok and Dat were weaker than the mercenaries who helped Golden Wheel Monk against Gwok Jing.

2. Hung 7 Gung didn't have Left/Right Hand Technique or knowledge of the 7 Star Big Dipper Formation to help him fend off multiple enemies at the time, but he *did* have the Dog Beating Stick Technique, which would give the Golden Wheel Monk, et. al., lots of trouble. Even when the relatively weaker Wong Yung wielded it, the Golden Wheel Monk was wary of the skill, so in the hands of Hung 7 Gung, it would likely intimidate the monk and his allies even more.

[Ken Cheng]

One more thing, Ian: I doubt that Fok Do was a better fighter than Yau Chui Gei. Fok Do was incapable of defeating Chu Tze Lau in a fair fight, and I don't think Chu was better than Yau. I believe that Fok Do was below Lee Mok Sau's level, and if so, he'd also be below Yau Chui Gei's level.

[Ian Liew]

While I know it sounds improbable, I thought Huo Du was tougher than Qiu Chuji because Quanzhen seemed so helpless when Huo Du invaded early on in ROCH. Until Guo Jing arrived, the Quanzhen elders looked to be in trouble against Huo Du and Daerba. Instinct tells me that Qiu should be able to beat Huo, but the way the elders were on the defensive, with Hao Datong already injured, seems to indicate that it wouldn't be that easy. If Qiu could beat Huo, the others (which included Ma Yu and Wang Chuyi) should have been able to hold off, if not beat, Daerba anyway.

I know it sounds improbable. It sounds even more improbable that a recluse like Zhu Zhiliu would be a better fighter than the experienced Qiu Chuji. I don't understand why with people like Qiu Chuji, Ma Yu and Wang Chuyi about, they would be so worried about Huo Du and Daerba. If GWM was there then it would be understandable, but he wasn't.

[Ken Cheng]

While I know it sounds improbable, I thought Huo Du was tougher than Qiu Chuji because Quanzhen seemed so helpless when Huo Du invaded early on in ROCH. Until Guo Jing arrived, the Quanzhen elders looked to be in trouble against Huo Du and Daerba. Instinct tells me that Qiu should be able to beat Huo, but the way the elders were on the defensive, with Hao Datong already injured, seems to indicate that it wouldn't be that easy. If Qiu could beat Huo, the others (which included Ma Yu and Wang Chuyi) should have been able to hold off, if not beat, Daerba anyway.

I know it sounds improbable. It sounds even more improbable that a recluse like Zhu Zhiliu would be a better fighter than the experienced Qiu Chuji. I don't understand why with people like Qiu Chuji, Ma Yu and Wang Chuyi about, they would be so worried about Huo Du and Daerba. If GWM was there then it would be understandable, but he wasn't.

I think it's because Fok Do and Dat Yee Ba had come up to Mt. Chung Nam with a small army. I don't think Fok Do or Dat Yee Ba personally fought any of the Cheun Jen (second generation) disciples during that attack. Alone, I don't think either or both would have posed much of a threat to the Cheun Jen Disciples. They did, however, bring a large number of bandit warriors with them, and it seemed that the Cheun Jen Disciples were overwhelmed by numbers.

[tape]

While I know it sounds improbable, I thought Huo Du was tougher than Qiu Chuji because Quanzhen seemed so helpless when Huo Du invaded early on in ROCH. Until Guo Jing arrived, the Quanzhen elders looked to be in trouble against Huo Du and Daerba. Instinct tells me that Qiu should be able to beat Huo, but the way the elders were on the defensive, with Hao Datong already injured, seems to indicate that it wouldn't be that easy. If Qiu could beat Huo, the others (which included Ma Yu and Wang Chuyi) should have been able to hold off, if not beat, Daerba anyway.

I know it sounds improbable. It sounds even more improbable that a recluse like Zhu Zhiliu would be a better fighter than the experienced Qiu Chuji. I don't understand why with people like Qiu Chuji, Ma Yu and Wang Chuyi about, they would be so worried about Huo Du and Daerba. If GWM was there then it would be understandable, but he wasn't.

I think theres a line somewhere in Heroes Conference chapter that specifically says Qiu Chuji is superior to Zhu still, and I think even superior to Huang Rong even (not completely sure about that, might be a different quote and might be wrong entirely)

If that line didn't exist, I'd agree completely with the way you're thinking. From how the QZ Sect looked like it was in trouble in the beginning and the fact that Qiu Chuji never really showed how dominant he was (even in LOCH), I'd assume he was not as good as Zhu. We also know that the other Mongolian mercenaries are better than any of the Quanzhen masters, and I never thought they were THAT far above someone like Daerba.

Even if Qiu is better than Zhu, from the clear superiority showed by Zhu above Huodu, and the fact that Qiu is weaker than the Mongolian mercenaries for sure, he can't be very far above Zhu.

It's pretty strange that the Jin flunkies of LOCH were near on par with Qiu Chuji, yet we refer to them as flunkies and goons, while Qiu Chuji within another span of 10-15 years becomes an almost legendary powerhouse second only to the Greats in the Central Plains. Probably one of the reasons why I can't seem him as that great in ROCH is that he didn't really stand heads and shoulders above his competition.

[Athena]

Zhu Zhiliu is inferior to Qiu Chuji and Ma Yue as established in chapter 12 of ROCH.
朱子柳初列南帝门墙之时，武功居渔樵耕读四大弟子之末，十年后已升到第二位，此时的武功却已远在三位师兄之 上。一灯大师对四名弟子一视同仁，诸般武功都是倾囊相授，但到后来却以朱子柳领会得最多，尤其一阳指功夫练 得出神入化。此时他的武功比之郭靖、马钰、丘处机尚有不及，但已胜过王处一、郝大通等人了。

This is what I posted years ago on the levels of the Quanzhen Masters. It was actually in a thread created by you, Tape.

Personally, I believe that to be a mistake by Jin Yong that Zhu Ziliu has surpassed Wang Chuyi. Throughout LOCH we learn the following:
Ouyang Ke was often ranked as equal to the mercenaries of Wanyan Honglie (Sha Tongtian, Peng Lianhu, etc.) but also he was also sometimes ranked as equal to Ma Yu, Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuyi. In chapter 11 the part where Yang Tiexin met up with Qiu Chuji again after all those years, we can see that Peng Lianhu, Hou Tonghai and Ouyang Ke combined forces to attack Qiu Chuji. Qiu Chuji held his ground and reached a stalemate with them. If Ouyang Ke was equal to Qiu Chuji, with the assistance of two other peers of himself wouldn't he be able to kill Qiu Chuji rather fast? But that doesn't happen. A poisoned Ma Yu was able to ward off a combined attack of Sha Tongtian and Liang Ziweng (again two martial artists ranked as peers of Ouyang Ke) for a short while.
*1 Qiu Chuji began to lose when all of them (including Liang and Sha) attacked him. Sha Tongtian, someone who was often ranked as equal to Ouyang Ke throughout the novel, clashed palms with Qiu Chuji. Qiu was only a bit shocked to see that this bald man could handle his palm attack, Sha's arm felt numb and pain, Qiu felt nothing. Sha Tongtian engaged Qiu Chuji again with bare hands, Qiu Chuji whisked him on his head with his fingers; leaving red imprints on the bald head of Sha. Qiu Chuji was able to force Peng Lianhu to drop one of his Judge's brushes in a few bouts. It would seem that one on one, those mercenaries of Wanyan Honglie are inferior to Qiu Chuji (and subsequently Ma Yu and Wang Chuyi as well*2)

*1: This happened before Ma Yu was poisoned.
*2: Ma Yu, Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuyi were the three strongest of the Seven Masters. Ma Yu's fighting skills and technique wise profiency were said to be a bit inferior to Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuyi. (Although, I think he makes up for that with more stronger and abundant internal energy. Jin Yong never said that Ma Yu had the strongest or deepest internal strength compared to the others, but he did always stress that Ma Yu had deep and profound energy more than he did with the others). Suffice to say that all three of them were evenly matched (in my opinion).

My look at this is: How can Ouyang Ke be equal to the Seven Masters, and also to those mercenaries? Did Jin Yong mean that they belonged to the same class category? That is possible, but as equals that would seem untrue. Lav ranked the weaker masters of Quanzhen as equals to the mercernaries (including Ouyang Ke), while Ma, Tan, Liu, Qiu, Wang were a notch better.
If you read some of Laviathan's posts on ranking LOCH and ROCH mid-level fighters in the past, you often would see that in his eyes Sun Bu'er (or Hao Datong)= Ouyang Ke. And later on in ROCH Hao and Sun = Da Er'ba and Huo Du.
Ma Yu, Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuyi's martial arts level should be closer to Mei Chaofeng than Ouyang Ke and the other Jin Empire mercenaries.
Ma, Qiu and Wang roughly Mei Chaofeng. Ouyang Ke is not a match for Mei.

On top of that, Ma Yu and Qiu Chuji were able to do some things that impressed Huang Yaoshi a bit. Qiu Chuji was able to whisk Huang in the chest with his sleeve, but that was because Huang underestimated Qiu. But nonetheless, not bad for old Qiu. Ma Yu counter-attacked Huang Yaoshi's attack during their battle in Misty Rain Pavilion. Huang Yaoshi stormed at Ma, assuming that Ma would not be able to do anything but move away from his key position in the formation. But Ma Yu raised his sword and counter-attacked. His technique was steady and firm, generated with powerful internal energy. Huang Yaoshi moved away and genuinly praised Ma Yue saying:"Worthy of being the Quanzhen head disciple!"

Back to Wang Chuyi, maybe the clue in defeating Zhu Ziliu lies in either a more profound and deeper understanding of martial arts and a more aggressive fighting style a la Qiu Chuji. Or the other key factor in defeating Zhu Ziliu is powerful internal energy. Most readers, including me, believe that Ma Yu has more internal power than the other masters. So, perphaps Wang Chuyi maybe all-round equal to Qiu and Ma at the time of ROCH. However, he still fell behind in the martial arts proficiency area compared to Qiu and the internal energy wise inferior to Ma Yu leading to him being weaker than Zhu. The best explanation would be a mistake by Jin Yong. Because it is implied and believed that Ma, Liu, Qiu and Wang are superior to Li Mochou. Zhu Ziliu is equal to Li Mochou, but if that's the case how can Wang be inferior to Zhu again. Unless we have the A > B, but B = C, but then C > A equation.

Li Mochou should be weaker than the four masters of Quanzhen (Ma Yu, Liu Chuxuan, Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuyi. Li Mochou was afraid of those old Taoist priests of the Quanzhen school and she said that if she had studied and mastered the Art of the Jade Maiden she would not fear them in combat. The only Masters she met were Liu Chuxuan, Qiu Chuji, Wang Chuyi and Sun Bu'er. As we know that Sun Bu'er is not a match for Li Mochou (and Huang Rong) and she was also defeated by Li (although not in a very fair match but nevertheless defeated), the old Taoist priests she feared in combat were Liu, Qiu and Wang. We know that Ma is at least as good as Liu, Qiu and Wang, so it is likely Ma is superior to Li Mochou too.

Huo Do ARROGANTLY believed that he was better than the Quanzhen Masters. 那贵公子将信将疑，心想适才和全真众老道斗了半日，他们也只一个天罡北斗阵厉害，若是单打独斗，个个不是自 己对手，怎么他们的弟子却这等厉害，再向郭靖上下打量…..(Chapter 4 ROCH).

However, just a few lines further Huo Do realized that his assessment was wrong: 丘处机忽然提气喝道：“不用等到十年，我丘处机就来寻你。”他这一声呼喝声震屋瓦，显得内力甚是深厚。那贵 公子耳中鸣响，心头一凛，暗道：“这老道内力大是不弱，敢情他们适才未出全力。”不敢再行逗留，迳向殿门疾 趋。
And he quickly realized that there was AT LEAST another expert (apart from Guo Jing) who was superior to him.

In chapter 26, there is a direct comment from the author that states that Wang Chuyi, Qiu Chuji and other (most likely Liu Chuyuan) are superior to Huo Do and Daerba.
达尔巴和霍都大吃一惊，眼见这般破洞的声势，便如点燃了的火药开山爆石一般。两人各挺兵刃，向前抢上。丘处 机等五人向旁人让，突然十掌齐出，按在两人背心，一捺一送，将两人抛出丈许之外。达尔巴和霍都的武功与郝大 通等在伯仲之间，虽不及丘处机、王处一的精湛，但也决不致只一招便给掷开。

In chapter 27, Qiu and Wang are able to scare Huo Do by just staring at him. Their ‘auras’ are enough to frighten him.
丘处机与王处一见他目光闪烁的缓步上前，便知他要出手助师，二人对望一眼，均想：“杨过虽与我教为敌，但大 丈夫光明磊落，是输是赢，当凭真本事取决。终南山岂容奸徒猖狂？”两人各挺长剑，踏上一步，一齐瞪住了霍都 。丘王二道这时须发俱白，但久习玄功，满面红光，两柄长剑青光如虹，自有一股凛凛之威，镇慑得霍都不敢妄动 。

[Ian Liew]

Thanks for all that info - it certainly feels more "right" that Qiu Chuji would be superior to Zhu Zhiliu (and hence, Huo Du). I didn't know Liu Chuxuan was ranked that highly too - a shame we never really got to see him in action at all!

On a side note, was Zhu Zhiliu really superior to Li Mochou? I assumed he was on par with (or at least not much better than) Dianchang (sp? The fisherman) and Wu Santong, and Wu Santong was no match for Li. Or was that because of his mental condition?

[Athena]

You're welcome, Ian. In chapter 32, Zhu Ziliu and Li Mochou are ranked as equals of one another.

A reason why Huo Du (and the readers) incorrectly assess Qiu Chuji’s martial arts with Huo Du is mostly because before Guo Jing arrived in the main shrine of the Chongyang Temple, Ma Yu, Qiu Chuji, Wang Chuyi and four third generation disciples (one of them is Yin Zhiping – no not Zhen Zhibing) were not doing that well against those attackers. They were sitting on the floor using the Big Dipper Formation to hold off their enemies. For your information, this is Yin Zhiping’s final actual appearance in the novel from that point onwards he would be referenced by others. Later on in this chapter it was explained that after Hao Datong was injured by Huo Du, the Quanzhen people rushed forward to protect Hao and quickly formed the Big Dipper Formation. Unfortunately due to the huge discrepancy in internal energy and experience in using the formation, the formation’s full potential could not be realised.

Hao Datong lost because he underestimated Huo Du. We know from the novel during the Heroes’ Meet, that the ranking of top martial arts experts present and combat-able at the Meeting are Guo Jing, Zhu Ziliu, Hao Datong. So, we could assume that the fisherman is not as good as Hao Datong.

[Dirt]

I often wonder how good the 7 Masters would be had they started learning martial arts at a young age. Perhaps though they could have been sub-Greats and the 3 best of them could match or even beat a Great without using the Big Dipper formation. What if?...

[tape]

Does anyone know where it's stated that they learned martial arts at an adult age? I'm sure it's correct since so many people have quoted it, but I just wanted to make sure it was clear that it wasn't that they learned martial arts from Wang Chongyang at an adult age, which would be a big difference.

I'm sure ZBT at the least must have learned martial arts somewhere else in his youth before he met WCY.

The Wudang Heroes were all very talented and learned from Zhang Sanfeng, whom seems to be portrayed as one of the best teachers of martial arts ever, and even they only reached a respectable but still far below Great level. I don't think the Quanzhen masters would have done better.

[Doc Kwok]

Does anyone know where it's stated that they learned martial arts at an adult age? I'm sure it's correct since so many people have quoted it, but I just wanted to make sure it was clear that it wasn't that they learned martial arts from Wang Chongyang at an adult age, which would be a big difference.

I don't recall that being stated in the novel - it is probably a historical inference. Using Wikipedia as a date reference, Wang Chongyang accepted most of his students at around 1167 AD, as he was spreading the Quanzhen beliefs in Shandong. The ages of the Quanzhen seven at that time would have been:

Ma Yu - 44
Tan Chuduan - 44
Liu Chuxuan - 20
Qiu Chuji -19
Wang Chuyi - 25
Hao Datong - 18
Sun Bu'er - 48

So there are actually two distinct age groups among the historical Quanzhen seven, with 3 in their mid-forties, and 4 in their twenties, and Sun Bu'er was actually the oldest of the seven (only 6 years younger than Wong Chongyang himself!).

[tape]

I don't recall that being stated in the novel - it is probably a historical inference. Using Wikipedia as a date reference, Wang Chongyang accepted most of his students at around 1167 AD, as he was spreading the Quanzhen beliefs in Shandong. The ages of the Quanzhen seven at that time would have been:

Ma Yu - 44
Tan Chuduan - 44
Liu Chuxuan - 20
Qiu Chuji -19
Wang Chuyi - 25
Hao Datong - 18
Sun Bu'er - 48

So there are actually two distinct age groups among the historical Quanzhen seven, with 3 in their mid-forties, and 4 in their twenties, and Sun Bu'er was actually the oldest of the seven (only 6 years younger than Wong Chongyang himself!).

Ah I was not aware of their age differences -- very interesting. It would be likely then that they had some martial arts training in their youth, as it would be pretty hard for a nearly 50 year old Sun Bu'er to start learning at that age and have any sort of progress.

The bravado that people like Wang Chuyi and Qiu Chuji display also are indicative that they've had some sort of wulin affiliation for quite some years.

[Athena]

I think Jin Yong did not include that particular historical factual information on the age of the Seven Masters in his works. He does take artistic liberties with these things. For instance Wanyan Hongxi (the brother of Honglie) died when he was just a baby boy, but in the novels he is quite alive. In the Young Flying Fox, a son of Qianlong recommended Chen Yu of the Northern Taiji School to Fu Kangan, but that son, Prince of Ding, only received that royal title after he died (if I remember correctly). In the novels, it seems that the Seven Masters’ ages are quite close to one another, but there is no clear indication of this.

赵志敬道：“是，丘师伯已七十多岁。”法王道：“那么丘道长交卸掌教之后，该当由尊师王道长接充了。”这一 言触中了赵志敬的心事，脸色微变道：“家师也已年迈。全真六子近年来精研性命之学，掌教的俗务，多半是要交 给我这个尹师弟接手。”Chapter 24 –Roch (edition 2)

In this particular part we can see that the age of the Seven Masters (at least Qiu) is similar to that of Huang and Hong.
黄蓉听他说姓洪，心道：“果然是他。不过他这般年纪，看来比丘道长还小着几岁，怎会与全真七子的师父齐名？ 嗯，我爹爹也不老，还不是一般的跟洪七公他们平辈论交？ Chapter 12 - Loch

Here we know that Sun Bu’er started learning martial arts when she was middle-aged (perhaps around 30+).
须知欧阳克自小得叔父亲传，功夫确比中年方始学艺的孙不二精纯… Chapter 25 - Loch

Tan Chuduan was a blacksmith before becoming a disciple of Wang Chongyang.
郭靖细看这位全真七子的二师兄，见他脸上筋肉虬结，浓眉大眼，身
形魁梧。原来谭处端出家前是山东的铁匠，归全真教后道号长真子。 Chapter 25 - Loch

And Hao Datong was a wealthy merchant.
郝大通飘然进来。黄蓉未曾见过此人，凑眼往小孔中张望。这日正是七月初五，一弯新月，恰在窗间窥人，月光下 见这道人肥胖高大，状貌似是个官宦模样，道袍的双袖都去了半截，至肘而止，与马钰等人所服的都不相同。原来 郝大通出家前是山东宁海州的首富，精研易理，以卖卜自遣，后来在烟霞洞拜王重阳为师。Chap ter 25 - Loch

So, by looking at the backgrounds of some of the Masters, it shows that some of them had lives and professions before they met Wang Chongyang. So, the others could have comparable backgrounds and started their official martial arts training only after becoming a Quanzhen disciple/Taoist priest. Perhaps some of them had some (basic) martial arts traning, Tan Chuduan might have learnt some martial arts based on his profession.

[tape]

Quality posts as usual, really appreciate the details Athena and Doc.

This begs the question: Is Wang Chongyang better than Zhang Sanfeng as a teacher, or does learning martial arts at a late age (contrary to in real life) not have as big an impact as we think? I think Song Yuanqiao is close to 40 when HSDS began, and at that point he was no more impressive than Qiu Chuji, and even by the end of the novel he does not show anything more remarkable than the QZ masters.