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Thread: The Beggar Clan

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    Default The Beggar Clan

    Reading through the various posts on the decline of martial arts (something which I will have to weigh in on someday), I was thinking a good bit about the Beggar Clan. It is something of a microcosm of the entire Jianghu due to the diversity of its members and its prominence in Jin Yong's various works. In particular, the degradation of the Beggar Clan's treasures, Xianglong and Dagou, is interesting. For reasons that are fairly obvious, I shall focus on the novels from TLBB to YTTLJ.

    Starting with the creation of the Beggar Clan in the Tang dynasty, both treasures (probably created by the clan founder) have been passed down straight to YTTLJ. It should be noted that the third leader of the Beggar Sect was mentioned to have perfected Dagou. In TLBB 3e, XiaoFeng and XuZhuZi streamlines Xianglong into the form that is most familiar with readers. I would argue that Xianglong reached its peak in the palms of GuoJing, who incorporated his understanding of Jiuying into the techniques, but XiaoFeng is a formidable contender to that title.

    It is interesting to look at the old versions of Jin Yong's novels for comparison. In the Ming Pao edition of SDYXZ (1e), Hong QiGong's Xianglong was half taught by Leader Qian, half self-created. Even when Guo Jing learnt the initial 15 palms, he was able to create 3 ersatz palm techniques on his own to fill in the gaps until Hong taught him the real (and far more powerful) techniques. In other words, the 1e Xianglong had undergone reconstructive surgery from TLBB to SDXYZ. In 2e, Xianglong was passed down as is. In 3e, Xianglong underwent liposuction, going from 28 palms to 18.

    The depiction of Xianglong from SDXL to YTTLJ in 1e is another interesting change. In 1e, Xie Xun knew several palms of Xianglong, but lacked the knowledge to realise their full power. He taught these to Zhang Wujie, who used them right up until he learnt QianKun. Zhu and Wu also knew bits and pieces of Xianglong, but were also unable to realise their power. In the Beggar Clan, there was of course Shi Huolong who knew 12 palms, but also Chuangong Zhanglao, who used it against Hebiweng to great effect. Finally, there is Guo Jing's Xianglong shortcuts in Yitian. All these were cut out in following editions.

    To me, the loss of Xianglong seems to be incomprehensible. Jin Yong's depiction of it seems to tend towards easy to learn but hard to master. Guo Jing could master Xianglong in several months, so why should it be lost (partially anyway) after him (or YeluQi in YTTLJ 3e)? There is no particular reason why Clan leaders could not learn it due to lack of intelligence - Guo Jing is the brawn, not the brains of the Guo couple. Even if according to lack of talent, I find it hard to believe that Dagou can be passed down in its entirety to Shi Huolong but not even the remnants of Xianglong - especially when Xianglong is the technique that is not limited to the Clan leader! Particularly in 1e, the amount of people who know some Xianglong is outrageous - given that Hong Qigong was able to create 9 palms to complete the set, I should think someone would be able to come up with something to replace what was lost. No wonder Jin Yong made Xianglong a Macguffin in later editions. It still begs the question of why Dagou wasn't lost at the same time though - look at Lu Youjiao. Granted, it is never mentioned if he learnt Xianglong at all (!!), but given his difficulty in learning Dagou, would someone of lesser ability be able to learn it any more than Xianglong?

    As a side topic, there were originally 2 "Crown Jewels" of the Clan. One is the Dagou Bang, of course. But the other is Hong Qigong's wine gourd - the one which was buried with him. This gourd was ruby red and abnormally large (it was slung across the back) and played a role in SDXL - Pang Zhanglao and one of his cronies used a fake to relay false news regarding Hong Qigong in the Convention. The gourd is probably a reference to JiGong, and was taken out because its depiction was nonexistent in TLBB (Not to mention the idea of generations of spit accumulated in that gourd... urgh).

    The decline of the Beggar Clan has much to do with its internal politics as well. Apart from the Clean and Dirty Parties, the power balance between the various elders and the Leader has a large role to play in its decline. Hong Qigong and Huang Rong are leaders in absentia, leaving Lu Youjiao to do most of the day-to-day management, while Shi Huolong was gone for 20 years by the time the major events of YTTLJ occurred.

    Personally, I think the peak of the Beggar Clan's might was reached during SDXL - It is certainly when the seeds of the Clan's decline were sowed. From Huang Rong through Yelu Qi, the Beggar Clan was controlled by the Guo family. Even during Lu Youjiao's reign as leader, I suspect Huang Rong was leader in all but name - As noted before, it is not mentioned if Lu Youjiao ever learnt Xianglong at all, for one thing. For another, Lu Youjiao was already running the day-to-day business of the Clan when she was in recluse at Taohua Dao, and later involved with Xiangyang - there was no real reason that she had to hand over the reins. In reality, nothing changed - she was still the Queen of Beggars. This is even more true once Yelu Qi assumed leadership. In YTTLJ 1e, this goes even further - Yelu YuanRu was mentioned in passing as the leader of the Beggar Clan in Zhang Wujie's youth. It would seem that certain heredities have emerged in the Beggar Clan, which would add to the decline. Certainly, the selection of Shi Hongshi as a puppet leader and the loss of the 4 elders meant a gutting of the top echelons and assured the final decline of the clan.

    I wish I had more to say about Dagou, but there isn't really anything. It was passed down straight to Shi Huolong and lost - the stick essentially being a sceptre of power afterwards.

    I should read up more on the politics of the Beggar Clan as well - there are bits and pieces of information scattered throughout the corpus which paint a fairly complex picture. Simply going through the various positions and titles of the Clan throughout its history is a formidable challenge.

    Comments and corrections are most welcome, of course.

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    Very good read.

    The only thing I'd like to note is that it's interesting how all the elite users that we read about (Xiao Feng, Hong Qigong, Guo Jing) found the need to modify the Dragon Palms one way or another. Either it's a highly customizable martial art, or it's actually a very, very powerful palm style that has yet to be perfected/refined. It's not that surprising considering the Beggar Clan isn't as organized as sects such as Shaolin, which have dozens of high level martial arts available to hundreds of high level monks that spend lifetimes tweaking and perfecting them throughout the ages.

    As Wuji thought in HSDS, the Shaolin Dragon Claws must have been perfected over hundreds of years by various monks, and it is merely one of the more minor skills in Shaolin I'd imagine.

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    Regarding the fact that no clan leader after Yelu Qi learned more than 14 out of 18 palms, I simply attribute it to lack of compatible talent. GJ could learn XL18Z quickly because he had the right mindset plus a lot of help from H7Q. Not everyone has that, even if they are more talented in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foolworm View Post
    I would argue that Xianglong reached its peak in the palms of GuoJing, who incorporated his understanding of Jiuying into the techniques, but XiaoFeng is a formidable contender to that title.
    You might be aware of this already, but JY answered in an interview that XF's XL18Z is more powerful than that of GJ and H7Q.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    You might be aware of this already, but JY answered in an interview that XF's XL18Z is more powerful than that of GJ and H7Q.
    I would make this distinction: Kiu Fung exhibited the most powerful Hong Lung 18 Palms (sheer destructive power), but Gwok Jing likely exhibited the most sophisticated version of the palms (imbued with the essence of 9 Yum Jen Ging).

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    I always thought that if you have Sweeper Monk praising your palm skill, that palm skill probably doesn't need much tweaking in the first place. But then everybody decides to tweak it anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I would make this distinction: Kiu Fung exhibited the most powerful Hong Lung 18 Palms (sheer destructive power), but Gwok Jing likely exhibited the most sophisticated version of the palms (imbued with the essence of 9 Yum Jen Ging).
    I agree GJ's display is more sophisticated, but that's besides the point since JY clearly said XF's version is the best/strongest.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I agree GJ's display is more sophisticated, but that's besides the point since JY clearly said XF's version is the best/strongest.
    But did Jin Yong say best AND strongest, or only best or only strongest? Those aren't necessarily the same things, and I'm not sure it's what foolworm means. If we're talking about the most powerful palms, and there's little dispute that Kiu Fung had the most powerful variant of the palms (although it was not so much anything innate to the palms themselves as it was the way *he* used them), but if we're talking about the best as in the most refined and sophisticated, then we have to give the nod to ROCH Gwok Jing.

    I know it's sort of like splitting hairs, but I feel it's important to make this distinction.

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    It's possible Xiao Feng willingly sacrificed sophistication and conservation because it became more powerful overall when used in his direct and forceful manner. He didn't lack refinement in his martial arts when he showed several times he could use elements of redirecting and combining forces instead of just powering through.

    Huang Yaoshi's palm techniques were more sophisticated, and no doubt some Shaolin palm styles were more refined, but it doesn't count for much if they are overall not as powerful.

    I guess I see this comparison as XF being Lebron, while Guo Jing is Durant/Kobe/Dwight/CP3. They each can do some things better than him, but it doesn't matter that much if Lebron is going to just be BETTER overall. They can shoot better, pass better, rebound better, but it doesn't matter if he beats you anyway.
    Last edited by tape; 12-11-12 at 02:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    It's possible Xiao Feng willingly sacrificed sophistication and conservation because it became more powerful overall when used in his direct and forceful manner. He didn't lack refinement in his martial arts when he showed several times he could use elements of redirecting and combining forces instead of just powering through.
    It's more that Kiu Fung used the Hong Lung 28 Palms (it is 28 in the 3rd edition of DGSD) as it was (as far as we know) originally designed, no additions. Therefore, they were relatively simple in their construction.

    HOWEVER, Kiu Fung and Hui Juk applied some Siu Yiu Sect martial arts concepts to simplify the original 28 down to the more familiar 18. That added a level of sophistication to the palms that they did not previously demonstrate.

    NOTE: Kiu Fung never had the opportunity to use the new, simplified palms that he and Hui Juk co-created. In combat, Kiu Fung only used the original Hong Lung 28 Palms as were taught to him by his predecessor and teacher, Chief Wong.

    A century or so later, North Beggar Hung 7 Gung used the Hong Lung 18 Palms as Kiu Fung and Hui Juk redesigned them. Already, the palms are a more sophisticated art than Kiu Fung and his predecessors originally used. They're not necessarily *stronger*, but they are more sophisticated.

    A few decades later, Gwok Jing has incorporated the 9 Yum Jen Ging into the Hong Lung 18 Palms, enabling him to deliver varying energy levels in a manner that was unknown to the Hong Lung 18 Palms users who preceded him. This is as sophisticated as the art ever became.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    It's more that Kiu Fung used the Hong Lung 28 Palms (it is 28 in the 3rd edition of DGSD) as it was (as far as we know) originally designed, no additions. Therefore, they were relatively simple in their construction.

    HOWEVER, Kiu Fung and Hui Juk applied some Siu Yiu Sect martial arts concepts to simplify the original 28 down to the more familiar 18. That added a level of sophistication to the palms that they did not previously demonstrate.
    It wasn't a case of merging 28 palms down to 18 palms - XF outright discarded the final 10 palms, which he said were extremely complicated but much weaker than the first 18. He said that they were like 'snake legs', and their essence was fully contained in the first 18 palms anyway. So the 18 palms were arguably less technically sophisticated, but more 'back-to-the-basics' and stronger for it - sometimes less is more.

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    I meant sophistication. Xiao Feng is a monster who has the talent to instantaneously learn anything and use it at maximum power. Coupled with his killer instinct, it is no wonder he has the fan nickname of 'Super Khitan' (for those of you that read DBZ).

    Anyway, to continue...

    Although the overall hierarchy of the Beggar's Clan has not changed through the corpus, the various positions near the top of the totem pole have undergone variations and are interesting to look at. The Beggar's Clan ranks its members through the number of pockets they have (I always imagine the 'bags' as pockets sewn on the back and made to look like patches) - the higher the number of pockets, the higher the rank. Usually, to have any kind of say in the organization (or at least page time) one needs to have at least 5 pockets (beggar conventions etc). Nine is the highest number - 10 would presumably be reserved for the Clan Leader, but this is never explicitly stated.

    In TLBB, the is the position of Deputy Leader which would be a second-in-command. Nine-pocket leaders are the 4 Hufa Zhanglao - the Guardian Elders. There is also the Chuangong (Teacher) and Zhifa (Judge) Elders for a total of 6 Great Elders.The Eight Pocket Leaders are the Helmsmen and their deputies - the Clan is split into various areas for ease of government. I would say the structure of the Beggar Clan at this time is the most complete and balanced - the setup is like that of a central government, with specialized positions for legal and educational institutions.

    XDYXZ and XDXL,there are drastic simplifications. Directly below the Leader are the Four Great Elders, and that is it. By this time, the Clean and Dirty factions have emerged, weakening the clan's leadership. This division is so severe that even the Leader is affected - Hong Qigong wears Clean and Dirty clothes in alternating years, but is unable to quell the unrest. The helmsmen are not mentioned at all, and I presume they no longer exist. Furthermore, Hong Qigong and Huang Rong are leaders in absentia, so the day-to-day operations are left to the Four Elders. The problem is that three are of the Clean Faction - on the other hand, Lu Youjiao is first among equals, and is later the Leader. This creates a balancing force on the clan's leadership, but the breakdown is nonetheless visible. I also note that Chuangong and Hufa are no longer present - all powers are centralized in the Elders (again, not a good thing). One might argue that Guo Jing effectively serves as Chuangong, but it is a unique case.

    In YTTLJ, the Four Great Elders each has a position: Two are Chuangong and Hufa, while the remaining two are new positions created to institutionalize the Clean and Dirty Factions:Stick-bearer and Bowl-bearer Bosses (This is a 1e thing which I have added for the sake of completeness). Note the title of boss (LongTou), which lends a triad feel to the organization. Since each of the Elders now has a title and position, there is even less flexibility. With the factions being legitimized in the governing structure, there is no hope left of reconciliation.

    In XAJH, the Beggar Clan is a bit player. All that is seen is the Leader, the Deputy Leader (apparently makes a comeback), and two envoys which are Jie Feng's illegitimate sons. The nepotism is now evident.

    Finally, there is LDJ. Near the beginning, Wu Liuqi gives a brief overview: There is the Leader, the four elders, and the Five (up/down/left/right/centre) Guardians. The notion of eight-pocket positions makes a comeback, but there is so little page time alloted for the Beggar Clan that it is irrelevant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post
    It wasn't a case of merging 28 palms down to 18 palms - XF outright discarded the final 10 palms, which he said were extremely complicated but much weaker than the first 18. He said that they were like 'snake legs', and their essence was fully contained in the first 18 palms anyway. So the 18 palms were arguably less technically sophisticated, but more 'back-to-the-basics' and stronger for it - sometimes less is more.
    I wonder if the Dragon Palms entered the Beggar Clan since the first generation of leaders. If that were the case, all the previous (was XF 30th?) leaders were likely not on XF's level since they did not recognize the potential for trimming down the martial art.

    Unless possibly, even our mighty XF might have missed the forest for the trees and not realized the full potential of the 10 moves!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    But did Jin Yong say best AND strongest, or only best or only strongest? Those aren't necessarily the same things
    They're the same in this case. JY was asked a simple question of who was 最厉害 (literally "most fierce", but also is a casual way to say "best"), and he replied XF. He didn't add "but GJ was more sophisticated." On the other hand, when asked about YG vs LHC in swordsmanship, JY said LHC was better but added YG had higher internal energy. This suggests in the case of XF vs GJ, JY simply thinks XF is better overall.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    It's more that Kiu Fung used the Hong Lung 28 Palms (it is 28 in the 3rd edition of DGSD) as it was (as far as we know) originally designed, no additions. Therefore, they were relatively simple in their construction.

    HOWEVER, Kiu Fung and Hui Juk applied some Siu Yiu Sect martial arts concepts to simplify the original 28 down to the more familiar 18. That added a level of sophistication to the palms that they did not previously demonstrate.

    NOTE: Kiu Fung never had the opportunity to use the new, simplified palms that he and Hui Juk co-created. In combat, Kiu Fung only used the original Hong Lung 28 Palms as were taught to him by his predecessor and teacher, Chief Wong.

    A century or so later, North Beggar Hung 7 Gung used the Hong Lung 18 Palms as Kiu Fung and Hui Juk redesigned them. Already, the palms are a more sophisticated art than Kiu Fung and his predecessors originally used. They're not necessarily *stronger*, but they are more sophisticated.

    A few decades later, Gwok Jing has incorporated the 9 Yum Jen Ging into the Hong Lung 18 Palms, enabling him to deliver varying energy levels in a manner that was unknown to the Hong Lung 18 Palms users who preceded him. This is as sophisticated as the art ever became.
    Since he died 'on screen', he must have realized the inferiority (on some level) of the 10 palms that he would later discard during or even before the novel began already.

    He probably never used the palms that he thought were redundant, being the efficient and optimal martial artist that he was, so the palms were as powerful as they would eventually have been when passed down officially.

    The way Guo Jing used it I believe was adding an element of Yin within the Yang (classic wuxia trope) that allowed for more energy conservation or something like that, as the palms taught to him always emphasized holding back and adding energy levels as needed once you reach mastery of the technique. It was stated that Hong Qigong did not do what Guo Jing did, but it makes you wonder if it's something we call in poker called Fancy Play Syndrome (FPS). Xiao Feng trimmed it down to be more direct and more towards the spirit of the palm style, and Guo Jing added more elements to the palm style, but perhaps it is not as effective overall. Attack, attack, attack might be better than (half)attack, attack, (half)attack or whatever way Guo Jing is using it.
    Last edited by tape; 12-11-12 at 10:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    The way Guo Jing used it I believe was adding an element of Yin within the Yang (classic wuxia trope) that allowed for more energy conservation or something like that, as the palms taught to him always emphasized holding back and adding energy levels as needed once you reach mastery of the technique. It was stated that Hong Qigong was not able to do this, but it makes you wonder if it's something we call in poker called Fancy Play Syndrome (FPS). Xiao Feng trimmed it down to be more direct and more towards the spirit of the palm style, and Guo Jing added more elements to the palm style, but perhaps it is not as effective overall. Attack, attack, attack might be better than (half)attack, attack, (half)attack or whatever way Guo Jing is using it.
    Miejue and Zhou Zhiruo demonstrated sophisticated control of energy in palms, holding back their energy on initial contact before delivering the force as a follow through. I wonder if this technique was deveoped by Guo Jing and passed to Guo Xiang.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    Miejue and Zhou Zhiruo demonstrated sophisticated control of energy in palms, holding back their energy on initial contact before delivering the force as a follow through. I wonder if this technique was deveoped by Guo Jing and passed to Guo Xiang.
    Perhaps. The concept isn't really inferior as it makes sense for a more Yin type of martial art which is trickier in nature, but it might not coincide with the overall theory of Dragon Palms as well as just straight up attacking might have.

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    To foolworm, regarding your second post, someone (was it you? ) recently proposed to analyze JY's body of work by when he wrote them rather than by the period they're set in. If we did that, we would find more consistency: the deputy leader and 8 pocket helmsmen were created in DGSD, and they continue to be incorporated in the novels since then like SPW and DOMD. The Chuangong and Zhifa Zhanglao's were introduced in HSDS (I think) and we saw them in DGSD; I'm not sure if they existed in SPW/DOMD but if not, it can be explained by the weakened state of the clan in those later times.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    This makes me think the HIS technique can be broken with the final stance of Dugu 9 Jian.

    DG9J allows you to fight like the HIS without the inner strength requirement, and if you happen to have awesome inner strength, well it only gets better then. I was a proponent of Random Sword Techniques ---> DG9J ---> HIS ---> No Sword, but I guess it makes sense the other way around also, depending on which you believe is 'simpler'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foolworm View Post


    Starting with the creation of the Beggar Clan in the Tang dynasty, both treasures (probably created by the clan founder) have been passed down straight to YTTLJ. It should be noted that the third leader of the Beggar Sect was mentioned to have perfected Dagou. In TLBB 3e, XiaoFeng and XuZhuZi streamlines Xianglong into the form that is most familiar with readers. I would argue that Xianglong reached its peak in the palms of GuoJing, who incorporated his understanding of Jiuying into the techniques, but XiaoFeng is a formidable contender to that title.


    where did you get this information from? which chapter? i believe in 1st edition, Hong Qigong created the 18 dragon subduing palms himself, none of stances learned from ex leader Qian.
    Last edited by a_tumiwa; 03-10-23 at 04:04 AM.
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