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Thread: Xixing Dafa and Beiming Shengong

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    Default Xixing Dafa and Beiming Shengong

    For a long time, we've always talked about Xixing Dafa as being an imperfect version of Beiming Shengong, which is why it had the problems with containing the internal energies. There was also talk (never substantiated in the book) of Ren Woxing's method being 'forcibly suppressing' the internal energies, which contributed to his death. But while reading the translation of DGSD, I came across this gem:

    Li QiuShui's chest and back sustained heavy injuries, unexpectedly she lost control of her internal energy, its similar to a flood being left unchecked, its about to burst out of the dam and flow away. The martial arts of Carefree Sect is number one under the heaven, however if the practitioner lose control of internal energy, the energy would flow around and collide with each other, it can't drain out, the pain and suffering during this period is indescribable. In an instant, Li QiuShui felt all the acupoints in her body are numb and itchy, she is panic-stricken, she is aware that her injuries are incurable...
    From this, we can see that BMSG had almost the exact same problem, just described in less detail, that RWX and LHC faced with XXDF! Based on this, I would say that Xixing Dafa's so called 'flaw' is actually a flaw that was in the original BMSG; RWX originally had problems solving the flaw, but eventually did so, most likely through a method similar to whatever Li Qiushui was using.

    Discuss?
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    It seems like all Carefree Sect internal energy had this issue _IF_ you lost control of it. Considering the three practitioners all lives to over 70, I'd say they had control normally. It sort of fits that the Carefree Sect's martial arts are powerful but had severe drawbacks seeing they're pretty heterodox.


    XXDF had the problem where you slowly lose your control over it by default. So you inherently lose control instead of just losing control if you're severely injured. So there is a way to control it but it was lost in XXDF and RWX probably used his intelligence to (re)discover the method.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    It seems like all Carefree Sect internal energy had this issue _IF_ you lost control of it. Considering the three practitioners all lives to over 70, I'd say they had control normally. It sort of fits that the Carefree Sect's martial arts are powerful but had severe drawbacks seeing they're pretty heterodox.


    XXDF had the problem where you slowly lose your control over it by default. So you inherently lose control instead of just losing control if you're severely injured. So there is a way to control it but it was lost in XXDF and RWX probably used his intelligence to (re)discover the method.
    Chrono is right in the Beiming Shengong it just a incredible art that has drawbacks and severity depends on the practitioner skill.

    I always consider Ren Wo Xing prime to be before he was trapped and imprisoned because he wasn't hindered by the flaw XXDF as such he under-performs throughout SOD. Ling Wu Chung XXDF + Shaolin Yik Gun Jing > Beiming Shengong, he is a true monster by the end of the novel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9dragonkings View Post
    I always consider Ren Wo Xing prime to be before he was trapped and imprisoned because he wasn't hindered by the flaw XXDF as such he under-performs throughout SOD.
    That is an interesting theory, but I think the fact that Zuo needed to rely on a dirty trick, even after Ren already wasted energy fighting Fang Zheng, meant that he improved. He was superior to Zuo 20 years ago, but not so much that Zuo was afraid of him. I'd think Zuo improved a bunch over the 20 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9dragonkings View Post
    Ling Wu Chung XXDF + Shaolin Yik Gun Jing > Beiming Shengong, he is a true monster by the end of the novel.
    I don't think Yijin Jing and XXDF are compatible with each other. Orthodox neigong (of which YJJ is one) rely on condensing qi in the dan tien, whereas XXDF disperses it among the various meridians, thereby creating a 'vacuum' in the dan tien which draws in the qi of others. This 'vacuum' needs to be maintained periodically by re-dispersing any absorbed qi, otherwise the conflicting energies start acting up again.

    So, if you train in YJJ, you lose the vacuum, so XXDF won't work anymore. And if you disperse your qi using XXDF, you wreck your progress in YJJ (though I suppose you might get to retain the power as you would an absorbed power...). Furthermore, the stated aim of YJJ is to dissolve (化去) the conflicting foreign energies, not integrate them, so you don't even get to keep the power you absorbed before either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    There was also talk (never substantiated in the book) of Ren Woxing's method being 'forcibly suppressing' the internal energies, which contributed to his death.
    This was stated at the end of the book by Ren Yingying:

    近年來以十分霸道的內功,強行化除體內的異種真氣,實在是大耗真元。

    "In recent years he used extremely overbearing neigong, to forcefully dissolve the conflicting energies in his body, which greatly depleted his vitality."

    Though if he was dissolving the conflicting energies, what was he using to fight with?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    That is an interesting theory, but I think the fact that Zuo needed to rely on a dirty trick, even after Ren already wasted energy fighting Fang Zheng, meant that he improved. He was superior to Zuo 20 years ago, but not so much that Zuo was afraid of him. I'd think Zuo improved a bunch over the 20 years.
    Ren wo xing losing to Zuo is an example of technique/tactics over power. It the same reason Ren wo xing defeating Fang Zheng, who superior to Ren wo xing. Fang Zheng is certianly very strong adversary. Zuo actually never a threat to Ren Wo Xing in terms of arts, pre conflicting energy or after conflicting energy.

    Tactics> Arts if the gap isn't too far and opponent is on par in intelligence.

    Ren Wo Xing was forcefully suppressing his internal so there is good portion of his internal that's wasted. He also had to employ XXDF in a cautious manner so he doesn't outdo his internal suppression method, which is like a manual energy filter. In sum, he is an under performer in rest story or at least severely handicap. He lost his I can stomp anyone one of you mojo as seen in Shaolin showdown.
    Last edited by 9dragonkings; 05-02-13 at 02:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post
    This was stated at the end of the book by Ren Yingying:

    近年來以十分霸道的內功,強行化除體內的異種真氣,實在是大耗真元。

    "In recent years he used extremely overbearing neigong, to forcefully dissolve the conflicting energies in his body, which greatly depleted his vitality."

    Though if he was dissolving the conflicting energies, what was he using to fight with?
    I think you might have misinterpreted what Dissolve meant in Ren Wo Xing XXDF context. Dissolve meant melting, like Ice into water, increasing the volume of water present. Raging internal is the Ice and smooth internal is the water. That is why Ren Wo Xing still had internal. The whole point of having XXDF is to absorb others internal and increase your own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post
    I don't think Yijin Jing and XXDF are compatible with each other. Orthodox neigong (of which YJJ is one) rely on condensing qi in the dan tien, whereas XXDF disperses it among the various meridians, thereby creating a 'vacuum' in the dan tien which draws in the qi of others. This 'vacuum' needs to be maintained periodically by re-dispersing any absorbed qi, otherwise the conflicting energies start acting up again.

    So, if you train in YJJ, you lose the vacuum, so XXDF won't work anymore. And if you disperse your qi using XXDF, you wreck your progress in YJJ (though I suppose you might get to retain the power as you would an absorbed power...). Furthermore, the stated aim of YJJ is to dissolve (化去) the conflicting foreign energies, not integrate them, so you don't even get to keep the power you absorbed before either.
    In theory, LWC YJJ and XXDF becomes a self regulating system rather then each technique acting on its own, as your described above. LWC case is like a natural ecosystem. If XXDF was on it own , it needs to be maintained manually this process it basically what killed Ren Wo Xing. The answer to this problem is YJJ or a portion of YJJ. LWC wasn't trying to master YJJ or utilize YJJ in a full manner he used the portion that allow him to do what Ren Wo Xing had failed to do properly, with Feng Zhang monk's pointers of course. Objectively speaking, the results speak for themselves. Evident that his pain went away, his internal is flowing smoothly and his increase performance in a fight. Jin Yong frequently used mix and match wuxia arts to increase there effectiveness in his novels. LWC did so unconsciously and have a hit a new plateau.

    Note:
    compatible issue of XXDF and YJJ only arise if one tries to master them both, but LWC master XXDF and was using a YJJ to rectify the flaw that causing him pain. Basically in the end LWC has a more refined XXDF. Added, with dugu 9 Jian he is a monster that has no problem absorbing away at you while exchanging strikes.
    Last edited by 9dragonkings; 05-02-13 at 02:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9dragonkings View Post
    I think you might have misinterpreted what Dissolve meant in Ren Wo Xing XXDF context. Dissolve meant melting, like Ice into water, increasing the volume of water present. Raging internal is the Ice and smooth internal is the water. That is why Ren Wo Xing still had internal. The whole point of having XXDF is to absorb others internal and increase your own. [
    '化除' is pretty unambiguous - it means to get rid of it. Though this was what RYY said, so it may not be accurate. The phrase that RWX himself used was '融合為一' - melt together into one, which is more in line with what you said.

    Quote Originally Posted by 9dragonkings View Post
    In theory, LWC YJJ and XXDF becomes a self regulating system rather then each technique acting on its own, as your described above. LWC case is like a natural ecosystem. If XXDF was on it own , it needs to be maintained manually this process it basically what killed Ren Wo Xing. The answer to this problem is YJJ or a portion of YJJ. LWC wasn't trying to master YJJ or utilize YJJ in a full manner he used the portion that allow him to do what Ren Wo Xing had failed to do properly, with Feng Zhang monk's pointers of course. Objectively speaking, the results speak for themselves. Evident that his pain went away, his internal is flowing smoothly and his increase performance in a fight. Jin Yong frequently used mix and match wuxia arts to increase there effectiveness in his novels. LWC did so unconsciously and have a hit a new plateau.
    The flaw of XXDF is that the absorbed energies conflict - the dissipating process itself is, as far as we know, not harmful as long as you do it right. It was explicitly stated what LWC did with YJJ - he used it to rid himself of the foreign energies:

    這三年半來,我修習他老人家所傳的內功,幾乎已將體內的異種真氣化除淨盡。

    These three-and-a-half years, I've practiced the neigong that he passed on, dissolving and clearing out nearly all the foreign energies in the body.

    '化除淨盡' is also pretty unambiguous here.

    Quote Originally Posted by 9dragonkings View Post
    Note:
    compatible issue of XXDF and YJJ only arise if one tries to master them both, but LWC master XXDF and was using a YJJ to rectify the flaw that causing him pain. Basically in the end LWC has a more refined XXDF.
    YJJ is an inner-power cultivation technique, while XXDF relies on you throwing away your own inner-power cultivation to be able to absorb others, so they are fundamentally incompatible. All evidence points towards LWC abandoning XXDF (which he despised anyway) and practicing YJJ 'full-time' in order to undo the harm done by XXDF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post
    '化除' is pretty unambiguous - it means to get rid of it. Though this was what RYY said, so it may not be accurate. The phrase that RWX himself used was '融合為一' - melt together into one, which is more in line with what you said.



    The flaw of XXDF is that the absorbed energies conflict - the dissipating process itself is, as far as we know, not harmful as long as you do it right. It was explicitly stated what LWC did with YJJ - he used it to rid himself of the foreign energies:

    這三年半來,我修習他老人家所傳的內功,幾乎已將體內的異種真氣化除淨盡。

    These three-and-a-half years, I've practiced the neigong that he passed on, dissolving and clearing out nearly all the foreign energies in the body.

    '化除淨盡' is also pretty unambiguous here.



    YJJ is an inner-power cultivation technique, while XXDF relies on you throwing away your own inner-power cultivation to be able to absorb others, so they are fundamentally incompatible. All evidence points towards LWC abandoning XXDF (which he despised anyway) and practicing YJJ 'full-time' in order to undo the harm done by XXDF.
    Wasn't the flaw of XXDF what killed Ren Wo Xing because he had to forcefully suppress the conflicting internal, hurting his vitality? How is it not harmful?

    XXDF flaw should be melded rather then dissipated because it counter productive of the art to be this way. The purpose of XXDF was to absorb other internal as their own. If one can't gain others internal the XXDF does not do what it advertise. In the novel and adaptions we see the LWC get stronger through absorbing the internal of others, including one of the villa hermit that guarded Ren Wo Xing, he commented that he felt his internal is much stronger then before.

    Does vacuum have to maintained or is it during the process of learning the art because I never seen LWC maintain it? Should be the reason why it was killing him. They key word "cultivating" energy in YJJ can also be consider melding energy. I usually think of XXDF as a big drain, this drain gets clogged often and YJJ is like a liquid that melts the debris (internal energy) into the drain, unclogging it, flowing the energy into other parts of body. If you see it as this way then what incompatible becomes compatible if YJJ is used "solely" in this manner.

    Couldn't LWC be using a portion of YJJ in a manner to deal with flaw of XXDF solely as you mention rather then abandoning XXDF? It not common in wuxia to use part of the skill for a particular propose rather then mastering it. Unless it explicitly stated that he abandon XXDF for YJJ.

    Which is the better art XXDF or YJJ, assuming that YJJ is the same on as Tian Long Ba Bu?

    Note:
    I can't read Chinese, but I have watch nearly every adaption of the novel and read a rough translation of the novel itself.

    Also have you watched the latest adaption to the novel? In the 2012 mainland version we get to see LWC use XXDF, one can even say he abuses it.
    Last edited by 9dragonkings; 05-02-13 at 09:31 PM.

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    "XXDF flaw should be melded rather then dissipated because it counter productive of the art to be this way. The purpose of XXDF was to absorb other internal as their own. If one can't gain others internal the XXDF does not do what it advertise. "

    Melding the energies would be ideal. However, XXDF was recreated by Ren Woxing from fragments of older Xiao Yao martial arts. XXDF was very experimental. It's understandable if it had flaws. I still think it works as advertised. If you only absorb 1 person, you get a power boost and probably won't have any of the side effects. Some speculate that if you absorb several people from the same school, the energies won't conflict either.

    Obvious advantage: absorbing another person's internal energy. Even if you can't use that person's internal energy in the long term, you can still completely disable them, win the immediate battle, and kill them. A lot of martial artists would love to get their hands on such a martial art. Lin Pingzhi would probably have loved to learn it if it meant he could gain immediate revenge for his parents.

    edit:

    "Couldn't LWC be using a portion of YJJ in a manner to deal with flaw of XXDF solely as you mention rather then abandoning XXDF? It not common in wuxia to use part of the skill for a particular propose rather then mastering it. Unless it explicitly stated that he abandon XXDF for YJJ. "

    Like Doc Kwok said, I think LHC chose to stop using XXDF for moral reasons. Can a less scrupulous person use XXDF to quickly increase his internal energy and combine it with YJJ to meld all the conflicting energies into one big mass that he can use at will? Maybe, I don't know for sure. Depends on how one interprets the Chinese quote about YJJ either:

    1-YJJ can only disperse and dissipate, i.e. safely destroy energy streams absorbed by XXDF, it CANNOT combine all the different energy streams into one big mass of uniform energy usable at will.
    or 2-YJJ can combine different energy streams into one.

    If we go by #1, which is what Doc Kwok suggests, it means that LHC completed destroyed all the energy he absorbed, and he's only using the internal energy he trained himself in those 3.5 years. if 3.5 years of YJJ internal energy stronger than the all the decades of internal energy LHC absorbed from various masters? I doubt it. But if LHC keeps training, he will eventually be stronger.

    "Which is the better art XXDF or YJJ, assuming that YJJ is the same on as Tian Long Ba Bu?"

    Both are EXTREMELY difficult to master. XXDF can also be used as an additional offensive tool, and short term big power boost. YJJ is a defensive tool and has excellent long term power boost and health benefits.

    I think both are opposite yet equal. FZ proved himself slightly superior to RWX. But RWX suffered for years because the XXDF he created was only improved and completed in his later years. If say RWX's student that's a clone of himself got a hold of the completed XXDF which had a way to control the conflicting energies, maybe he could have fought FZ completely evenly, with a less worn out body/more time to train at full health. Big if though
    Last edited by BlackRaven; 05-05-13 at 12:04 AM.

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    "1-YJJ can only disperse and dissipate, i.e. safely destroy energy streams absorbed by XXDF, it CANNOT combine all the different energy streams into one big mass of uniform energy usable at will.
    or 2-YJJ can combine different energy streams into one."

    I guess it depends how you define the word cultivate within YJJ. Suppose, if YJJ can only be used remove energy stream then it doesn't seem quite live up to the word cultivation. Whenever I think about YJJ I usually think of melding for it makes the art more like internal energy booster, sufficiently melding your internal energy the right way makes one stronger. YJJ is suppose to be Shaolin's highest form of art. This reason might be why YJJ was sought after in Demi Gods and Semi Devils, Tian Long Ba Bu.

    Have you seen Dicky Cheung young Zhang San Fung series? They depicted YJJ as internal art that skyrocketed Zhang San Fung's internal to master level. That interpretation of YJJ is a good example.

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    I feel like I'm a little late to the discussion... but might as well give it a whirl.

    From my understanding, XXDF does increase the user's internal energy reserve. This was seen with Linghu Chong, whose internal energy was becoming increasingly profound as the story progresses. In this aspect, it is similar to BMSG. However, with BMSG, the siphoned energy is ultimately harmonised into Beiming Zhenqi. Whereas XXDF users draw internal energies from various streams of absorped energies. And if the energy conflicts, then they would have to be suppressed by the user's own internal energy.

    Furthermore, Ren Yingying told Linghu Chong that XXDF does not automatically protect the user's body as is the case with completed internal energy cultivation. In this aspect, she said XXDF is one-level inferior.

    When Linghu Chong was captured by the Mute Granny and had his pressure points sealed, he noted that because the energies absorbed were not his own, he had a harder time controlling it. Whereas, I think with BMSG, once the energy is converted to BMSG energy, it becomes yours and is easier to control. Xu Zhu seems to have no trouble using the BMSG energy he inherited. As for Duan Yu, he never properly learnt how to control internal energy in the first place.

    As for whether YJJ fixes the flaws of XXDF and complete the skill, I think it only gets rid of the foreign energy. If YJJ could harmonise different streams of energy, I think Fengzheng would've told Linghu Chong. And ultimately, Linghu Chong only got rid of the foreign energies, instead of merging them. Irregardless, I don't think it is possible to practice both XXDF and YJJ in tandem. XXDF requires a void in the dantian for energy to be drawn to. This seem to run contrary to conventional internal skills which requires energy to be cultivated in the dantian. Furthermore, XXDF was adapted from BMSG and HGDF, both skills originated from Xiaoyao sect. It was mentioned in the instructions left in Wuliang Cave that the internal skills of Xiaoyao sect runs opposite to conventional skills. Ultimately, if you practice YJJ, XXDF becomes unusable. And if the user practices XXDF, then their own internal energy must first be dissolved.

    Therefore, IMO, Beiming Shengong > XXDF.

    On a different note, Linghu Chong doesn't need XXDF if he's got YJJ. If he masters YJJ and DG9J, with these two skills alone, he would be a force to reckon with. The only question is time. It would take years to practice both skills to the highest level.

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