Are we underestimating Feng Zhang

[9dragonkings]

The shaolin head abbot of State of Divinity aka smiling swordsman/ wanderer seem to have less people who are impress with him in this forum. Why is that? During his bout with Ren Wo Xing he was clearly dominating him, showing that there is a gap in their skills. In fact, it is implied that Feng Zhang would have certainly won that bout if he wasn't trick in to letting his guard down/ distracted. It was a one sided bout I don't understand why some underestimate his YJJ when it showed that he was immune to Ren Wo Xing, XXDF aka leeching star, that impressive feat by itself alone since no other character in the novel was able to accomplish such. Added, that he was dominating his Ren Wo Xing who aside from DFBB and Feng Qing Yang seemed to be most feared in wulin during the moment.

[BlackRaven]

I think most SPW fans know that Fang Zheng is the 2nd or 3rd best fighter in the story. #1 being DongFang Bubai and #2 might be Feng QingYang.

It's probably just that the old and withered monk has little screen time compared to other people. Probably even less than Chong Xu. FZ doesn't make any effort to be known as the strongest, nor does he even care about such trivial matters. When people were gossiping about Zuo Lengchan defeating RWX who defeated FZ, FangZheng didn't seem to mind, he was above such petty matters. RWX is around the same level as FangZheng with just a little less inner power, but he was more feared because RWX really went out of his way to destroy other people.

I think Fang Zheng could have beaten Ren Woxing by outlasting him with his abundant inner power, but I think they were equal in technique. It was only after a long fight that Fang Zheng can beat Ren.

[9dragonkings]

I guess it depends what version are you referring to novel or TV adaptions. In the most current adaption of the story 2012 Fang Zheng was literally dominating Ren Wo Xing in a few moves to the point that he was the clear winner until Ren Wo Xing pulled a trick. It was the same in all adaptions where it didn't actually take that long of a bout for Fang Zheng to outclass Ren Wo Xing. The two certainly have comparable internal, but it not how much internal you have that makes you the winner it's how well you utilize the internal. YJJ > XXDF in terms of internal control.

Do you really think DongFang Bubai to be higher then Feng QingYang? I think it should be the other way around since Dugu 9 Jian is superior to Hua Manual. An individual who is well verse in Dugu 9 Jian is superior to an Individual who is well verse in Hua Manual. Jin Yong implied so in the interview, stating Dugu 9 Jian to be the superior art. Feng Qing Yang certainly reach the 20 years requirement to master Dugu 9 Jian to turn this into fact.

[Ren Wo Xing]

I guess it depends what version are you referring to novel or TV adaptions. In the most current adaption of the story 2012 Fang Zheng was literally dominating Ren Wo Xing in a few moves to the point that he was the clear winner until Ren Wo Xing pulled a trick. It was the same in all adaptions where it didn't actually take that long of a bout for Fang Zheng to outclass Ren Wo Xing. The two certainly have comparable internal, but it not how much internal you have that makes you the winner it's how well you utilize the internal. YJJ > XXDF in terms of internal control.

Do you really think DongFang Bubai to be higher then Feng QingYang? I think it should be the other way around since Dugu 9 Jian is superior to Hua Manual. An individual who is well verse in Dugu 9 Jian is superior to an Individual who is well verse in Hua Manual. Jin Yong implied so in the interview, stating Dugu 9 Jian to be the superior art. Feng Qing Yang certainly reach the 20 years requirement to master Dugu 9 Jian to turn this into fact.

Are you talking about the Yu Zheng 2012 adaptation of XAJH? Please never, ever, ever reference it. It had DFBB become the main female lead (an actual female) and a love interest of LHC. BLECH!

[9dragonkings]

LOL it wasn't that bad. I found it quite interesting because most version had become reruns of the novel. Think about it if every adaptions stay too faithful to the original story then what's the point of watching them at all, it devalues the initial material. Even if it the most delicious food in the world you would find it every plain after eating it for years every single day.

I'm not talking about the plot more of how the adaption script writers gauge the wuxia strength of characters on screen. The 2012 adaption fight scene between Ren Wo Xing and Fang Zheng showed a clear one sided bout.
My favorite adaption the 1996 version of SOD, most loyal to the novel, also so clear domination on Fang Zheng part.
I especially like the fact that XXDF was ineffective against Fang Zheng YJJ.

[Ren Wo Xing]

LOL it wasn't that bad. I found it quite interesting because most version had become reruns of the novel. Think about it if every adaptions stay too faithful to the original story then what's the point of watching them at all, it devalues the initial material. Even if it the most delicious food in the world you would find it every plain after eating it for years every single day.

I'm not talking about the plot more of how the adaption script writers gauge the wuxia strength of characters on screen. The 2012 adaption fight scene between Ren Wo Xing and Fang Zheng showed a clear one sided bout.
My favorite adaption the 1996 version of SOD, most loyal to the novel, also so clear domination on Fang Zheng part.
I especially like the fact that XXDF was ineffective against Fang Zheng YJJ.

The problem is more that NO adaptation stays faithful to the original story. I think the only ones in recent memory that really were was the LOCH/ROCH/DGSD ones done a few years ago...and they were hands-down the best adaptations that I've sen thus far.

Anyone, in the novel, it was a much more even fight, but after a period of time, Ren Woxing was just getting worried because he could feel that Fang Zheng's internal energy was growing stronger and stronger as the fight continued. Not nearly as one sided as the adaptations tend to indicate.

[Ian Liew]

The TVB Golden 80s version had Fang Zheng win quite narrowly - in fact it looked almost like a draw with both men staggering back, but Fang Zheng conceded. Of course, that adaptation made no effort to follow the novel anyway.

[ChronoReverse]

LOL it wasn't that bad. I found it quite interesting because most version had become reruns of the novel. Think about it if every adaptions stay too faithful to the original story then what's the point of watching them at all, it devalues the initial material. Even if it the most delicious food in the world you would find it every plain after eating it for years every single day.

Quite the opposite for me.

Whenever an adaptation makes large changes to a story (as opposed to small changes to make something fit the TV or movie format), it indicates that the writer is a hack.

Unable to write a good original story, they needed to use what's basically fanfiction hitched on the back of a stronger work in order to get their own story into attention. Basically working in wish-fulfillment for their own satisfaction.

If they were good writers in the first place, they wouldn't need to hijack a well-known story; their work would stand on its own.


As with all rules there are exceptions. One particular exception is deliberate parody (as opposed to a farce).

[tape]

Some stuff might not translate to screen as well so I certainly don't blame them for making some changes.

They are writing and producing a ton of series, not just wuxia based ones. With constraints on money, actors, technology, editing, etc it's a bit severe to say a series was crap because it doesn't follow the novel exactly.

I mean, it's not like it's impossible to improve on a piece of JY work. If they choose to risk it and it comes out better, then more power to them.

[ChronoReverse]

And I made an allowance for that. The first thing I said is that there are changes necessary for fitting something into a visual medium (very hard task, many directors and writers do it poorly).


But turning DFBB into a real female and LHC's love interest? Unless it's parody, there's no justification beyond some sort of crack pairing fantasy.

[tape]

And I made an allowance for that. The first thing I said is that there are changes necessary for fitting something into a visual medium (very hard task, many directors and writers do it poorly).


But turning DFBB into a real female and LHC's love interest? Unless it's parody, there's no justification beyond some sort of crack pairing fantasy.

I don't think they need justification for any change except that it might attract more viewers. If it is done well and is enjoyable, then it being inaccurate isn't enough for me to hate it.

With your specific example even, Swordsman 2 did that and it was wildly successful and pretty fun to watch. Just because it was different in the novel doesn't make it inherently worse. JY is not perfect. If accuracy is all you want then that is fine, but it doesn't make writers garbage just because they want to try something out of left field. They rebooted Spiderman last year(?) and it was completely different from the original story, but most critics think it was the better version.

[ChronoReverse]

Comics stories are different because there is no canon and every continuity stands on its own. As a reboot, it's explicitly NOT an adaptation.



It's otherwise just being a hack to have to depend on an existing story. Unable to create something interesting enough to stand on its own.

But it's a good way to churn out a something quicker that will be easily popular (because it's riding on the coattails of an already popular story). It's an even worse version of sequelitis. At least sequels are still a new creation (unless it's one of those bad sequels).



See it's not ACCURACY that's the problem. You can't be accurate when you adapt a written form into a visual medium. But when you're using someone else's story to write your own because you can't do it by your own efforts then I'm against that. You can make it sound nice by saying things like "it's different perspective" or "it's my own take" but it's just self-indulgence. If you're doing something like that, don't pretend you're doing an "adaptation" and then it can be respected.

[tape]

I'm sure Ken knows more about comics than we do, but I do believe there is what purists consider canon and non-canon. Spiderman was never advertised as a reboot per se, it was just called Spiderman. Some are more "real" and accurate than others despite it being imaginary.

It's fine that you have that view, I just have a less strict view of what should be considered an adaption. We wouldn't have a lot of wuxia series and it wouldn't have been as ingrained in asian culture without a lot of subpar adaptions. And honestly making a few changes might attract more viewers. It's hard to do the same story over and over again, with the alternative being forcing someone to watch something that was created with decade old technology.

I think I do understand your gripe because I used to care a lot about accuracy too, but I'm okay with it now that I'm so familiar with the story that it's refreshing to see some things different.

I don't think the writers are trying to take any credit away from JY or the novels since it's clear that they are not the originators of the idea. Even if they create a wildly successful idea, the writers themselves aren't getting very much credit. It's actually easier for them to just copy the script word for word, and by not doing that, at least they are trying to do something.

[9dragonkings]

I'm sure Ken knows more about comics than we do, but I do believe there is what purists consider canon and non-canon. Spiderman was never advertised as a reboot per se, it was just called Spiderman. Some are more "real" and accurate than others despite it being imaginary.

It's fine that you have that view, I just have a less strict view of what should be considered an adaption. We wouldn't have a lot of wuxia series and it wouldn't have been as ingrained in asian culture without a lot of subpar adaptions. And honestly making a few changes might attract more viewers. It's hard to do the same story over and over again, with the alternative being forcing someone to watch something that was created with decade old technology.

I think I do understand your gripe because I used to care a lot about accuracy too, but I'm okay with it now that I'm so familiar with the story that it's refreshing to see some things different.

I don't think the writers are trying to take any credit away from JY or the novels since it's clear that they are not the originators of the idea. Even if they create a wildly successful idea, the writers themselves aren't getting very much credit. It's actually easier for them to just copy the script word for word, and by not doing that, at least they are trying to do something.

Well said, exactly what fans that enjoy adaptions think.

On the cannon to non cannon issue. Shouldn't we think adaptions as just stand alone works in terms of plot, relative to their own universe. It's kind of like alternate universe, something that is used most often in comics.
I know some people who loved adaptions over the original novel which goes to show to each their own.

I guess all the angst comes from people comparing certain versions of characters, gauging them with confusion in battle topics. Why don't people just relay in detail the characters they are talking about. In comic forums we see people describe a different version of a character and using that particular version in comparison.

When a character of a particular adaption is stronger then his novel counterpart the topic starter can specify so and maybe we can get some fresh new posts.

[tape]

I just watched the latest Journey to the West movie (Conquering the Demons, 降魔篇) and it reminded me of this adaption vs novel discussion.

This movie completely retold the original JTTW story, leaving only the central characters and some of their origins intact, but it was a very good movie.

I also speed watched a couple of episodes of LOCH '83, and I noticed the characters of Huang Yaoshi and Zhou Botong are actually quite different from their novel counterparts. I never really noticed that before.

[Western Eccentric]

Fangzheng with years of practicing Yijin Jing and mastered 13 of 72 Shaolin Divine Arts should be around Greats level IMHO at least LOCH Greats..