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Is Yong Tik Sum direct descendant from Mok Kwai Ying from General Yang Family?
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Thread: Is Yong Tik Sum direct descendant from Mok Kwai Ying from General Yang Family?

  1. #1
    Senior Member galvatron's Avatar
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    Default Is Yong Tik Sum direct descendant from Mok Kwai Ying from General Yang Family?

    Hello ,i have a question ,do you think is Yong Tik Sam ,Yong Hong or Yang Kang father direct descendant from Mok Kwai Ying(穆桂英) ?
    I ask this because i wonder why Yong Tik Sam kung fu was so inferior while Mok Kwai Ying kung fu was superior and she even know magic in the some TV drama made by ATV and TVB.
    If yes ,why Mok Kwai Ying don't pass her kungfu skill to her descendant like Yong Tik Sum?

    Do you think Mok Kwai Ying fighting skill are same level with some Jinyong novel hero like Xiao Feng?
    Do the Jinyong novel mention Mok Kwai Ying?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by galvatron; 09-10-13 at 02:33 AM.

  2. #2
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    There are many contradictory stories concerning the Yeung Family Corps of the Sung Dynasty, but LOCH does strongly suggest that Yeung Teet Sum comes from the same lineage as those famous Yeung Family generals who fought the Khitan Liao Empire during the early years of the Northern Sung Dynasty. Jin Yong never comes right out and says that there's a direct connection, but if you put all the available information together, it's much more likely than not that Teet Sum is descended from that famous lineage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    There are many contradictory stories concerning the Yeung Family Corps of the Sung Dynasty, but LOCH does strongly suggest that Yeung Teet Sum comes from the same lineage as those famous Yeung Family generals who fought the Khitan Liao Empire during the early years of the Northern Sung Dynasty. Jin Yong never comes right out and says that there's a direct connection, but if you put all the available information together, it's much more likely than not that Teet Sum is descended from that famous lineage.
    Yang Tiexin tells Qiu Chuji directly that his great (or great-great) grandfather is Yang Zaixing, and the disguised Qu Lingfeng also says he knows he is the descendant of the Yang family generals.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Yang Tiexin tells Qiu Chuji directly that his great (or great-great) grandfather is Yang Zaixing, and the disguised Qu Lingfeng also says he knows he is the descendant of the Yang family generals.
    Well, there you go.

    I forget who it was, but some years ago, one member went on a RAMPAGE against me for daring to suggest that Yeung Teet Sum *might* be a descendant of the Yeung Family generals; this member said that Jin Yong never wrote any such thing, and pretty much wouldn't believe that there was any connection between Teet Sum and the famous generals unless I showed him DNA evidence.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Here it is; the member was flyingfox2002.

    Foxy, come over here! Dinner is served!



    Thanks, tape. I've waited *years* for this moment!

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    Hrm fox did acknowledge the same passage that I just told you about, but his argument is that Yang Zaixing is not related to the legendary Yang Family despite using their spear technique and being named Yang. I mean most of it is a legend anyway, and LOCH is complete fiction, but I did think Yang Zaixing was the grandson of Yang Ye in many stories so....

    I do agree with you though that in the LOCH universe, Yang Zaixing (and thus Yang Tiexin) are most likely supposed to be distant descendants. Yang Zaixing is mentioned again briefly in SPW when the Fairies are arguing about a statue of him, and right away they start blabbing about all the other people in the Yang family like Yang Wenguang, the Sixth, etc. I know they're not very trustworthy sources, but it is another minor reference to the Yang family.

    At the least, Guo Jing's father Guo Xiaotian is directly said to be a descendant of Guo Sheng from Water Margins.
    Last edited by tape; 09-10-13 at 03:35 AM.

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    From Wikipedia, with a source: Yang Zaixing (楊再興), a general of the Southern Song Dynasty, is also said to be a descendant of Yang Ye in Shuo Yue Quanzhuan (說岳全傳), a semi-fictional biography of Yue Fei
    Read the latest chapters of Coiling Dragon at Wuxia World!

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Frankly, it works better thematically if Yeung Teet Sum (and Yeung Hong and Yeung Gor) are descended from the famous Yeung Family Corps: if the connection is there, Yeung Hong's betrayal and Yeung Gor's story of redemption are much more poignant because those Yeung generals had given their lives in the name of defending their country from foreign invaders. With that context in the background, Yeung Hong's and Yeung Gor's stories are more potent.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    In DGSD, during the Beggar's Conference at Apricot Forest, Elder Sung was embarrassed to admit that he had pawned (to buy liquor) a medal given to him by a "General Yeung" as a reward for bravery. I think it was mooted that this "General Yeung" was none other than Yeung Mun Gwong, the great grandson of Yeung Yip.

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    Oddly enough, historically, Yang Wenguang was Yang Ye's grandson, not great-grandson. There is some evidence for the existence of a 'Yang Zongbao', but it is as a granddaughter of Yang Ye. Mu Guiying is purely a fictional character.

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    There is an extra passage in the third edition that directly references the Yang family generals:

    楊家槍非同小可,北宋山後楊老令公、楊六郎等為時已久,槍法失傳,不去説他;南宋名將楊再興,學的也是家傳 楊家槍法,...

    Yang Family spear was not to be looked down upon, after Northern Sung the likes of Old Commander Lord Yang, Yang 6th son etc. were long in the past, their spear techniques lost, we will not discuss them; the famous general of Southern Sung Yang Zaixing, what he learnt was also Yang family spear technique passed down in his family, ...

    The meaning of this is rather ambiguous. The spear technique of the famous Yang generals was lost, but Yang Zaixing 'also' learnt Yang family spear technique? His spear technique is probably not a direct descendant of the Yang generals (which was lost), but maybe it branched off from them (via their friends, servants or daughters perhaps)? It does not resolve the issue of his lineage though...

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post
    There is an extra passage in the third edition that directly references the Yang family generals:

    楊家槍非同小可,北宋山後楊老令公、楊六郎等為時已久,槍法失傳,不去説他;南宋名將楊再興,學的也是家傳 楊家槍法,...

    Yang Family spear was not to be looked down upon, after Northern Sung the likes of Old Commander Lord Yang, Yang 6th son etc. were long in the past, their spear techniques lost, we will not discuss them; the famous general of Southern Sung Yang Zaixing, what he learnt was also Yang family spear technique passed down in his family, ...

    The meaning of this is rather ambiguous. The spear technique of the famous Yang generals was lost, but Yang Zaixing 'also' learnt Yang family spear technique? His spear technique is probably not a direct descendant of the Yang generals (which was lost), but maybe it branched off from them (via their friends, servants or daughters perhaps)? It does not resolve the issue of his lineage though...
    Maybe it's a similar situation to what happened with Hong Lung 18 Palms in earlier editions of the novels: Siu Fung died without having taught the palms to anyone, so Hung 7 Gung had to reconstruct the palms a few generations later. The result was satisfactory, but it wasn't the original Hong Lung 18 Palms.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    It might also reflect ambivalence on the part of Jin Yong: his storyteller's instinct so badly wanted to draw a direct connection between the famous Yeung generals of the Northern Sung Dynasty and his own Yeung family characters, but the info available to him just wasn't enough to establish a definite connection. It was almost as if he were hedging it, unwilling to completely surrender the idea, but also not able to fully commit to it.

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    From wikipedia.

    "In the 18th-century novel The Complete Legends of Yue (說岳全傳), Yang Zaixing is said to be a descendant of the 10th/11th-century Generals of the Yang Family, also known for their bravery defending the Song dynasty against hostile foreign powers. In Jin Yong's Condor Trilogy novels (19571961), the fictional protagonists Yang Kang and Yang Guo are said to be Yang Zaixing's descendants."

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Zaixing

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