Did Hung 7 Gung and Au Yeung Fung *need* to die for ROCH to go forward?

[Ken Cheng]

In ROCH, Jin Yong killed off North Beggar Hung 7 Gung, West Poison Au Yeung Fung, and Kau Cheen Yan (three Greats-level fighters he introduced back in LOCH), but left East Heretic Wong Yerk See, South Emperor 1 Deng, and Old Mischief Chow Bak Tung alive and well through the end of the story.

Did Hung 7 Gung and Au Yeung Fung, in particular, *need* to die at that point in ROCH for the story to move forward, or could essentially the same story have been told with the two old Greats still living and active along with the other three right up to the end?

[yangguo_]

need to pass the torch

[Ken Cheng]

need to pass the torch

Perhaps, but two of the original four Greats (plus one more of their generation) were still alive and kicking at the end. Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor had joined them, but the old guys hadn't completely vacated the stage.

[Ian Liew]

Ouyang Feng was a loose end which needed to be tied up, I guess. Would he remain insane forever, or would he gradually recover? What would he be like when he recovers - will we have another supervillain in ROCH appearing out of nowhere? The main cast of ROCH were already determined - it would have been too much work to fit Ouyang Feng as an antagonist into the main story. With Hong Qigong there also needed to be a reason to explain why despite all the horrible things happening in wulin nobody would step in and cleanse wulin of evil. Guo Jing was to be tied down in Xiangyang for the whole story, Huang Yaoshi cannot be relied upon to play vigilante when he doesn't feel like it, while Yideng and Zhou Botong would also have no interest in worldy affairs, no matter how unjust. They might take action, in the same way Zhang Sanfeng did in HSDS, if something happened before their very eyes, but they would not go around being paragons of justice in an unjust world. Only Hong Qigong would meddle in affairs which did not concern him, and it would be had to explain why he didn't throughout the entire story of ROCH. Killing him off would help resolve that, I guess. It was a good death for the two old men, even if it was sad and a tragic waste of two Greats. It was no longer their story, though.

[Ken Cheng]

Ouyang Feng was a loose end which needed to be tied up, I guess. Would he remain insane forever, or would he gradually recover? What would he be like when he recovers - will we have another supervillain in ROCH appearing out of nowhere? The main cast of ROCH were already determined - it would have been too much work to fit Ouyang Feng as an antagonist into the main story. With Hong Qigong there also needed to be a reason to explain why despite all the horrible things happening in wulin nobody would step in and cleanse wulin of evil. Guo Jing was to be tied down in Xiangyang for the whole story, Huang Yaoshi cannot be relied upon to play vigilante when he doesn't feel like it, while Yideng and Zhou Botong would also have no interest in worldy affairs, no matter how unjust. They might take action, in the same way Zhang Sanfeng did in HSDS, if something happened before their very eyes, but they would not go around being paragons of justice in an unjust world. Only Hong Qigong would meddle in affairs which did not concern him, and it would be had to explain why he didn't throughout the entire story of ROCH. Killing him off would help resolve that, I guess. It was a good death for the two old men, even if it was sad and a tragic waste of two Greats. It was no longer their story, though.

LOCH wasn't really their story either, though they did play bigger, more important supporting roles in the earlier story.

Removing Greats from the equation seemed to be part of Jin Yong's gameplan in ROCH, as he needed to let Yeung Gor (and to a lesser extent, Gwok Jing) shine, and having too many Greats around too often would be inconvenient.

He couldn't bring himself to kill them all off, though, so he chose Hung 7 Gung and Au Yeung Fung to get the early ax.

[tape]

Their death scene was really really good though, one of the highlights of the novel. I'd say it was probably the best way to callback the character from LOCH and tie up their storyline as well.

Speaking of which, I think Huang Yaoshi is the opposite -- he is too mellowed out in ROCH. It's reasonable because humans do mellow out with old age, but it kind of destroys the character that was created in LOCH. His supposed patriotism, one of the few positive traits he was supposed to have, is also weakened since he clearly didn't give a rats *** in ROCH until the last part of the novel.

He admits Yang Guo reached a higher level than him at a younger age (whether correct or not), greets Golden Wheel Monk politely during their first encounter, and needs TWO YEARS to teach an already accomplished Yang Guo to defeat Li Mochou. All that arrogance, mystery, and grandeur that was synonymous to his character was really weakened.

[Ken Cheng]

Their death scene was really really good though, one of the highlights of the novel. I'd say it was probably the best way to callback the character from LOCH and tie up their storyline as well.

Speaking of which, I think Huang Yaoshi is the opposite -- he is too mellowed out in ROCH. It's reasonable because humans do mellow out with old age, but it kind of destroys the character that was created in LOCH. His supposed patriotism, one of the few positive traits he was supposed to have, is also weakened since he clearly didn't give a rats *** in ROCH until the last part of the novel.

He admits Yang Guo reached a higher level than him at a younger age (whether correct or not), greets Golden Wheel Monk politely during their first encounter, and needs TWO YEARS to teach an already accomplished Yang Guo to defeat Li Mochou. All that arrogance, mystery, and grandeur that was synonymous to his character was really weakened.

You also felt that we got a watered-down, Wong Yerk See-lite in ROCH, eh?

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

The deaths of Northern Beggar and Western Venom was essential as they had fulfilled all they wanted.

Northern Beggar died knowing he had two brilliant student, with a full stomach and fighting a good fight. He even made two friends, one an old enemy another a young fun loving kid.

Western Venom had regained his sanity, found a son and bested his life long rival ( at least in his mind).

There was nothing left for them to live for, but the other two Greats still had unresolved issues right up to the end of ROCH.