I have a suspect in the theft of the Chinese Ming Cult's Sacred Flame Tablets.

[Ken Cheng]

The mystery of precisely who stole the Chinese Ming Cult's Sacred Flame Tablets, which were missing for 100 years before Cheung Mo Gei found them in the possession of the Persian Ming Cult, was never resolved.

I think, however, that I might have a suspect.

According to the Chinese Ming Cult members of the HSDS era, the Sacred Flame Tablets were stolen 100 years before their time...in other words, around the time of ROCH.

ROCH featured one Persian character: the mercenary warrior Wan Hak Sai, who served the Mongol Empire under Kublai.

Why do I suspect Wan Hak Sai? Several reasons:

1. He was Persian; perhaps he was a member of the Persian Ming Cult and stole the Chinese Ming Cult's Sacred Flame Tablets in the hope that he would be rewarded by the Persian Ming Cult.

2. He was covetous. Not only was he a wealthy jewel merchant, but he coveted Yeung Gor's Heavy Iron Sword (tried unsucessfully to steal it from Yeung Gor at Chung Yeung Temple), and ultimately lost his life because he coveted the 9 Yeung Jen Ging and fought his fellow mercenary, Siu Seung Tze, to the death for it. Thus, stealing the Sacred Flame Tablets (and knowing their value, assuming that he was indeed a Persian Ming Cult member or associate) in the hope of personal gain would fit his covetous character.

Jin Yong never hinted that Wan Hak Sai stole the Sacred Flame Tablets or had any connection to the Ming Cult, but if we use a little imagination, we can see ways that such a subplot could be feasible.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

Interesting theory but we know who stole the tablets, the Persian Ming Cult.

If WHS had stolen them the he must have found a way to pass them to the Persian Ming Cult, hence their emissaries using them in HSDS.

Given the importance of the tablets he would have transported them himself and gained the reward he was after. Obviously this didn't happen.

My theory is that the theft was motivated by the Great Universal Stance. The Persian Ming Cult had lost the original so sent Purple Robe Dragon King to steal the Han Ming Cult's copy.

But there is no reason to think that this was their first attempt. It seems likely they sent spies into China during the ROCH era to steal the Martial Art but only partially succeeded and got the tablets.

Realising that they couldn't master the Art without the manual they sent PRDK to try again.

[Ken Cheng]

Interesting theory but we know who stole the tablets, the Persian Ming Cult.

We know generally that they wanted it, and had possession of it by the time of HSDS. Specifically who spirited it out of Gwong Ming Peak for them, however, was never made clear...and I think Wan Hak Sai could fit this role, given his covetousness and his Persian heritage.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

We know generally that they wanted it, and had possession of it by the time of HSDS. Specifically who spirited it out of Gwong Ming Peak for them, however, was never made clear...and I think Wan Hak Sai could fit this role, given his covetousness and his Persian heritage.

But if it was him then why didn't he return to Persia and claim his reward?

[Ken Cheng]

But if it was him then why didn't he return to Persia and claim his reward?

I think he would have planned to, but then he encountered the 9 Yeung Jen Ging along with Siu Seung Tze, and we know how that ended. Persia is a long way from China, so perhaps instead of making the journey all the way to his homeland, Wan Hak Sai might have made arrangements to meet with Persian Ming Cult personnel somewhere halfway (like Samarkand). Wan never made the meeting (because he died), but perhaps he had arranged for the tablets to be transported to the meeting location, where the Persian Ming Cultists took possession of it.

[tape]

So you think he stole it just cause he's Persian...literally Donald Sterling!

[Ken Cheng]

So you think he stole it just cause he's Persian...literally Donald Sterling!

Actually, it's three things:

1). Timing: the timing was almost perfect to create the opportunity.

2). Personality: Wan Hak Sai was consistently portrayed as a covetous individual; greed seemed to be his defining personality trait.

3). Persian heritage: might have made him cognizant of what he had found and know the reason that it's valuable; this point would be even more effective if Wan Hak Sai was a Persian Ming Cult member or associate.

[Ken Cheng]

So you think he stole it just cause he's Persian...literally Donald Sterling!

Let's not joke about that, man. To you, it's just a throwaway joke, but to me, it could be something that even industrial-strength soap couldn't wash away if people get the wrong idea.

[tape]

It's not that serious, Ken. Feel free to take my post down if it bothers you that much.

[BlackRaven]

I agree with Tape, no harm meant or done.

Even Jeremy Lin had no qualms about making these jokes lol. And Lin went through some VERY stressful times.

http://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2...5quy.jpg?w=345

Be free and unrestrained, embrace the spirit of DG9J!

Concerning the topic at hand, I feel there isn't enough evidence to accuse Wan Hak Sai. This will remain an unsolved mystery of Wulin.

[Ken Cheng]

It's not that serious, Ken. Feel free to take my post down if it bothers you that much.

No need; I've made my point.

[Ken Cheng]

Concerning the topic at hand, I feel there isn't enough evidence to accuse Wan Hak Sai. This will remain an unsolved mystery of Wulin.

There really isn't, and if our goal were to prove it beyond reasonable doubt, we'd fail. Still, there's enough there for a fun speculation that it's plausible.

[BlackRaven]

There really isn't, and if our goal were to prove it beyond reasonable doubt, we'd fail. Still, there's enough there for a fun speculation that it's plausible.

This is true. When I first read this topic, I was salivating at the possible rewards one could get for bringing these Sacred Flame Tablets. It should be more than enough wealth to live off for years.

Like Mandred said, it's plausible that the main goal was to steal the Chinese copy of QKDNY, and they got the Sacred Flame Tablets as a consolation prize. I feel that if the greedy Wan Hak Sai got his paws on QKDNY, he would surely try to memorize it. If he later handed over QKDNY to the Persian Ming sect in the hopes of getting a reward, they will probably kill him to prevent QKDNY from being leaked.

[Ken Cheng]

This is true. When I first read this topic, I was salivating at the possible rewards one could get for bringing these Sacred Flame Tablets. It should be more than enough wealth to live off for years.

Certainly, and Persia has long been one of the world's wealthiest regions. Not only was it a huge trading post between Europe and Eastern Asia, but quite a few valuable gemstones were to be found in the region. Wan Hak Sai was already wealthy from the jewel trade, but I bet the Persian Ming Cult was wealthier.

I still say it's most fun to imagine Wan Hak Sai as a Persian Ming Cult member. For all we know, he might have been one of their guardian lords, heralds of light, or emissaries. His martial arts in ROCH were not bad for a non-Great.

[tape]

I still say it's most fun to imagine Wan Hak Sai as a Persian Ming Cult member. For all we know, he might have been one of their guardian lords, heralds of light, or emissaries. His martial arts in ROCH were not bad for a non-Great.

That's very true. As (relatively) unimpressive as he was in ROCH, he was probably stronger than all the guardian lords when Zhang Cuisan was the main character. They probably caught up and surpassed him eventually, but his martial arts definitely would have qualified him for a big position.

[Ken Cheng]

That's very true. As (relatively) unimpressive as he was in ROCH, he was probably stronger than all the guardian lords when Zhang Cuisan was the main character. They probably caught up and surpassed him eventually, but his martial arts definitely would have qualified him for a big position.

Wan Hak Sai was the weakest (other than Ma Gwong Jor, who was so weak he doesn't even count) among the martial artists Kublai hired to help him fight Gwok Jing, but he was by no means weak (only slightly weaker than Siu Seung Tze and Lui Mor Singh). In ROCH '83, he seemed quite powerful...toying with a young Yeung Gor who had already learned Dog Beating Stick Technique, Jade Flute Sword Technique, and Divine Finger Snap and could hold his own against the likes of Fok Do and Lee Mok Sau. I don't know if Wan Hak Sai demonstrated similar prowess in the novel, but he certainly wasn't a pushover.

[pannonian]

Wan Hak Sai was the weakest (other than Ma Gwong Jor, who was so weak he doesn't even count) among the martial artists Kublai hired to help him fight Gwok Jing, but he was by no means weak (only slightly weaker than Siu Seung Tze and Lui Mor Singh). In ROCH '83, he seemed quite powerful...toying with a young Yeung Gor who had already learned Dog Beating Stick Technique, Jade Flute Sword Technique, and Divine Finger Snap and could hold his own against the likes of Fok Do and Lee Mok Sau. I don't know if Wan Hak Sai demonstrated similar prowess in the novel, but he certainly wasn't a pushover.

Huo Du was way below the Mongolian mercs. Barring Ma Guangzuo, every one of them would comfortably beat either of GWM's disciples.

[Athena]

The Sacred Flame Tablets were stolen/stolen by the Beggars’ Union. Jin Yong used the word 奪 which could be meant as taken or stolen. The tablets came into possession of Persian merchants, and in the end the tablets were reclaimed by the Persian Ming Cult.

Perhaps one of those Persian merchants was Yin Kexi, but he was certainly not the one who stole them. The original text comes from Chapter 30 of HSDS. 數十年前，圣火令為丐幫中人奪去，輾轉為波斯商賈所得，复又流入波斯明教。波斯總教鑽研其上文字，數十年間 ，教中職份較高之輩人人武功陡進。

The question this raises is of course, whether this happened during Lu Youjiao's or Yelu Qi’s leadership of the Beggars’ Union. The novel is not really clear on how this happened. Was the leader of the Ming Cult, whose surname was Shi, killed in a duel with the leader of the Beggars’ Union? I hope that this 石教主 wasn’t killed in a duel with Lu Youjiao, because that would be rather pathetic.