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Thread: Wouldn't Lee Chum Foon have regretted his decision either way?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Wouldn't Lee Chum Foon have regretted his decision either way?

    Lee Chum Foon spent the better part of his life regretting giving away his fiancee, his home, and his wealth to his friend Lung Siu Wan as recompense for Lung's having saved his life, and most wuxia fans believe that Lee's decision was a mistake. Then again, given Lee's character and principles, had he chosen at the outset to *not* to sacrifice for Lung Siu Wan, wouldn't he also have regretted that decision and carried a feeling of guilt for the rest of his life? It seems that Lee Chum Foon was in a situation in which no matter which way he decided, he'd come to regret it.

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    Yep, he was in a lesser of two evils scenario.

    Most people have been in relationships, and the idea of just giving her away to a friend is relatable; we have an inkling of what that would feel like.

    But I think it's very rare for people to literally owe their life to someone, so we can't really relate to how LXH felt about Long Xiaoyun. He gets a lot of flak for this decision, but the man risked his life to literally save yours, and it's not like he was an evil schemer like he was during present day SSRS -- he seemed to be a righteous man in the past.

    It was a super tough decision and I don't think he can be faulted for going either way (assuming the premise that Long would have literally wasted away and died was true). In a normal situation, we would tell Long to man up, but it's kind of hard to tell someone that when he just charged into a group of armed men just to save a stranger's life.

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    Unfortunately, as wise of a man as Li Xunhuan otherwise was, he was still a product of his surroundings and upbringing. Back in those days, the love between a man and his bros was viewed as sacrosanct, whereas romantic love was viewed as a 'lesser' love. Hence the saying (originally from Liu Bei in the 3 Kingdoms, of all people, I believe), 兄弟如手足,女人如衣服; Your brothers are like your limbs, while your women are like your clothes.

    Also, please note that Li Xunhuan didn't "give" Lin Shiyin away; he all but pushed her away by essentially psychologically abusing her.

    The only mitigating thing I can say in Li Xunhuan's favor in this is that he honestly believed that Lin Shiyin would eventually truly love Long Xiaoyun and be happy together.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 08-02-14 at 11:10 PM.
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    I don't think that quote really applies to LXH...he did not consider women, especially Lin Shiyin, as replaceable.

    He spent the rest of his life as a mourning alcoholic because of her.

    He abused her psychologically, which is why I don't think anyone blames Lin for eventually leaving him, but it was what he needed to do to achieve the end goal of her leaving him.

    I mean he is an incredibly intelligent guy, and throughout the novel he seems to understand human emotions very well...yet he thought what he did was the better path even though it caused him incredible pain. I really can't blame him, even if I can't understand him.

    He wasn't just thinking about himself, or Long, or Lin, but of all three of them. He chose the path that he thought would bring the least amount of total pain to the other two, and (unfortunately) the greatest amount to himself. Maybe it could have been the wrong choice, but I don't think it's anywhere near clear that the other choices were better. The self sacrifice is the key thing to note imho.
    Last edited by tape; 08-03-14 at 12:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    I don't think that quote really applies to LXH...he did not consider women, especially Lin Shiyin, as replaceable.

    He spent the rest of his life as a mourning alcoholic because of her.

    He abused her psychologically, which is why I don't think anyone blames Lin for eventually leaving him, but it was what he needed to do to achieve the end goal of her leaving him.

    I mean he is an incredibly intelligent guy, and throughout the novel he seems to understand human emotions very well...yet he thought what he did was the better path even though it caused him incredible pain. I really can't blame him, even if I can't understand him.

    He wasn't just thinking about himself, or Long, or Lin, but of all three of them. He chose the path that he thought would bring the least amount of total pain to the other two, and (unfortunately) the greatest amount to himself. Maybe it could have been the wrong choice, but I don't think it's anywhere near clear that the other choices were better. The self sacrifice is the key thing to note imho.
    Through no fault of his own, he was in a situation in which no way to win was evident.

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    Yeah more or less.

    Guo Jing? Obviously he should leave Hua Zheng and stay with Huang Rong. It makes it easier when Genghis Khan becomes a bloody warlord invading the whole word.

    Yang Guo? Yeah stay with the eternally beautiful girl who saved your life instead of the girl who chopped off your arm. Would anyone disagree?

    Linghu Chong? She doesn't like you at all bro. Go with the incredibly beautiful and powerful girl who will throw her life down for you.

    Zhang Wuji? Hrm this is a bit tough...oh wait one girl murdered and poisoned some of the people closest to you. And one girl gave up everything just to be with you.

    Xiao Feng? No romantic choice at all from this guy.

    JY characters were a bit bland compared to what LXH had to go through.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Yeah more or less.

    Guo Jing? Obviously he should leave Hua Zheng and stay with Huang Rong. It makes it easier when Genghis Khan becomes a bloody warlord invading the whole word.

    Yang Guo? Yeah stay with the eternally beautiful girl who saved your life instead of the girl who chopped off your arm. Would anyone disagree?

    Linghu Chong? She doesn't like you at all bro. Go with the incredibly beautiful and powerful girl who will throw her life down for you.

    Zhang Wuji? Hrm this is a bit tough...oh wait one girl murdered and poisoned some of the people closest to you. And one girl gave up everything just to be with you.

    Xiao Feng? No romantic choice at all from this guy.

    JY characters were a bit bland compared to what LXH had to go through.
    Lee Chum Foon arguably had the most difficult path of all. The other guys had a right thing they could do, even if the right thing wouldn't necessarily be pleasant for them. Lee Chum Foon wanted to do the right thing, but there seemed to be no right thing to do. ANYTHING he did would be wrong one way or another. He was stuck with an impossible dilemma.

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    Yup it's an easy choice if it was something simple like "Would you lay your life down for the person you love?" but Li had to face the question of "Which of the two people you love most are you willing to let die?". Choosing his own death would have been much easier.

    Having a "right thing" to do is so much easier, even if it involves death and torture. I know you love Guo Jing, but it's part of the reason why I don't really find him interesting at all -- as much inner turmoil as he can feel, there always seemed to be a "right thing" that he should do. It's tough to watch your daughter burn to death, but giving up millions of civilian lives is clearly the wrong thing to do.
    Last edited by tape; 08-03-14 at 12:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post

    Having a "right thing" to do is so much easier, even if it involves death and torture. I know you love Guo Jing, but it's part of the reason why I don't really find him interesting at all -- as much inner turmoil as he can feel, there always seemed to be a "right thing" that he should do. It's tough to watch your daughter burn to death, but giving up millions of civilian lives is clearly the wrong thing to do.
    With Gwok Jing, his choices were pretty self-evident and not "tough" to make in the sense that there was clearly a moral path he had to take, but his appeal is that he'd make the difficult choice that 99% of people probably wouldn't.

    Lee Chum Foon is a whole different issue: he simply had no good choice to make, easy or hard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Lee Chum Foon spent the better part of his life regretting giving away his fiancee, his home, and his wealth to his friend Lung Siu Wan as recompense for Lung's having saved his life, and most wuxia fans believe that Lee's decision was a mistake. Then again, given Lee's character and principles, had he chosen at the outset to *not* to sacrifice for Lung Siu Wan, wouldn't he also have regretted that decision and carried a feeling of guilt for the rest of his life? It seems that Lee Chum Foon was in a situation in which no matter which way he decided, he'd come to regret it.
    I disagree, there is a much better choice to make. Lee Chum Foon should not push Lam Shi Yin away from him. Given they love each other so much, he should just married her and move on with life. Regarding his martial brother Lung Siu Wan, he will move on and eventually will find someone else that truly love him. Lung Siu Wan deserves someone truly love him and that person is not Lam Shi Yin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    兄弟如手足,女人如衣服; Your brothers are like your limbs, while your women are like your clothes.
    This is stupid. It should be the other way around. 兄弟如衣服, 女人如手足; Your brothers are like your clothes, while your women are like your limbs. Your woman/wife live with you, share everything with you, is the mother of your child/children. Your future generation depends on her. What can your brother(s) do for you? what can he/they share with you?

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    ^ Yep very patriarchal attitude.

    From a "modern" logical point of view, you'd argue that better for one person to be sad than for 2 or 3 to be sad.

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    Which way would make less people sad? If he stayed with Lin, Long maybe dies (and I assume that would mean he's sad ) and Li lives with guilt for the rest of his life.

    He leaves her and Lin and him are sad, but Long is as happy as Lin would be in the first scenario. Just non winnable scenario. In theory he chose to make Lin unhappy for a few years, and would then move on, while staying with her would have killed Long. It's a pretty lame premise, but supposedly women do deal better/move on faster than men do with regards to love.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    It's a pretty lame premise, but supposedly women do deal better/move on faster than men do with regards to love.
    SPCNET member Linda made the opposite observation in this opinion column.

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    I suppose there are always examples countering opinions, especially the more traditional wuxia chivalry JY stories.

    But in SSRS, Lin did eventually move on and would have lived a normal and happy life with Long until everything happened, while Li would have been a mourning alcoholic until his liver killed him.

    I think that's somewhat evidence that he made the "correct" choice since the end goal happened exactly as he hoped it would -- Lin marrying Long and mothering a child, while he is the only one mourning every day of his life. While Lin would clearly have preferred Li, she eventually accepted Long and became his loyal wife in every sense until the events of the story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Lee Chum Foon is a whole different issue: he simply had no good choice to make, easy or hard.
    He had good choice to make. He made a very stupid and wrong choice. A good choice is marry Lam Shi Yin and move on to his next stage of life. Lung Siu Wan will eventually move on and find his other half. Given Lung status in wulin, it's not hard for him to find love.

    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Which way would make less people sad? If he stayed with Lin, Long maybe dies (and I assume that would mean he's sad ) and Li lives with guilt for the rest of his life.
    If Lee Chum Foon marries Lam Shi Yin, Lung Siu Wan would be sad for a while but he will move on, he won't die. He will eventually found his other half that truly love him.
    Last edited by Trien Chieu; 08-05-14 at 04:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post


    If Lee Chum Foon marries Lam Shi Yin, Lung Siu Wan would be sad for a while but he will move on, he won't die. He will eventually found his other half that truly love him.
    It was implied he would probably die. He wasted away and was a shell of his former self within a month.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    It was implied he would probably die. He wasted away and was a shell of his former self within a month.
    Moreover, Lee Chum Foon had vowed to Lung Siu Wan that in gratitude for Lung's having saved his life, he would do *anything* for Lung. In the world that Lee lived in, a man's word was of greater value than gold.

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    I liked the not meant to be romance between Shiyin and LXH. Li's devotion and attachment to her was very moving.

    The way he embraced Sun XiaoHong so easily (who was so much younger than him too, she's younger than Ah Fei's for god's sake lol) feels too much like Lu XiaoFeng changing lovers. Such a move fits LXF's character but not LXH.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Moreover, Lee Chum Foon had vowed to Lung Siu Wan that in gratitude for Lung's having saved his life, he would do *anything* for Lung. In the world that Lee lived in, a man's word was of greater value than gold.
    Any ideas on when Long actually became the scummy person he was in the story? He knew Li "gave" Lin Shiyin to him during present day SSRS, but was he aware of that all the way back then? There was always a subplot of Long only becoming the way he was because Li came back and he felt threatened now that he had a wife, son, and huge reputation to care about. Presumably at the time he saved Li, he was a young hero with nothing to worry about and was legitimately a good guy.

    I think a large part of the reason Li still treated Long like a brother was because he did in fact realize that his return kind of screwed him up mentally. And I think you started a thread about this before...there really WAS no reason for him to come back.
    Last edited by tape; 08-05-14 at 06:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    It was implied he would probably die. He wasted away and was a shell of his former self within a month.
    I didn't say LCF should abandon LSW when he is sick. Of course LCF should try other way to help him but not at the expense of his love LSY. After all, LSY is a human being, not something to give away like a present. LCF should try the best to save LSW without sacrifice his love. If LSW die, then perhaps it's fate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Moreover, Lee Chum Foon had vowed to Lung Siu Wan that in gratitude for Lung's having saved his life, he would do *anything* for Lung. In the world that Lee lived in, a man's word was of greater value than gold.
    Yeah, he should find the best doctor for him with all the cares he can provide but not as the expense of his love. Again, LSY is a human being, not a present can be give it away. Yeah, a man's word was greater value than gold but a man's love should be greater than value of diamond and diamond is much greater than gold in value.

    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Presumably at the time he saved Li, he was a young hero with nothing to worry about and was legitimately a good guy.
    hhhhhmmmmmm
    This is a big assumption. Perhaps Lung is a scummy person all his life. The main reason he saved Lee Chum Foon was just to climb up the ladder.
    Last edited by Trien Chieu; 08-05-14 at 10:17 PM.

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