DFBB < ROCH Greats Evidence: JY

[Snafu3721]

@PJ : Wasn't that a joke thread? Haha

Anyway, my opinion is this:

Even the most skeptical of SPW martial arts generally agree that FZ/RWX is roughly LOCH GJ/Du Monk Level. While I personally think FZ is stronger than that, let's assume this 'worst case' scenario.

So we ask:

1. Can a ROCH Great toy with 3 LOCH GJ?

I believe a ROCH Great actually can toy around 3 LOCH GJ's. I will provide my explanation...but I admit, there are some odd inconsistencies in JY's power scale that also makes me raise an eyebrow sometime.

let's assume LOCH GJ is the standard 70% of a Great.
By ROCH GJ has at least surpassed LOCH Greats because after GJ and OYF's initial clash we have the below:
"Guo Jing meditated on the boat, and after a few days, his energy has recovered by more than half. Huang Rong and Guo Jing raised the topic of Ouyang Feng, saying they hadn’t seen him in ten years. Not only does it seem he hasn’t aged much but his kung fu has improved."

There is no indication of how much improvement, but I would think that the gain has to be significant for GJ and HR to bring up OYF's newfound prowess.

Then when H7G fights OYF we have this excerpt:
"Since the second Mount Hua competition, Hong Qigong had not seen Ouyang Feng for over ten years. Although Ouyang Feng’s mind was unclear, he practiced the Contrary Nine Yin Manual”; the more he practiced the stranger his kung fu became, and the stranger it became the more powerful he became.

Guo Jing and Huang Rong had recited a small portion of the manual to Hong Qigong; it made an impression on his kung fu and great progress in his martial arts. The final stage of the “Nine Yin Manual” is superior to the “Contrary Nine Yin Manual”, although Hong Qigong only knew a little; he wasn’t inferior to Ouyang Feng"

This indicates that the author clearly indicates reverse 9-Yin made OYF strange, yet the strangeness has contributed to his power. Yet with only the final stage of 9-Yin, H7G would not be inferior. This indicates that both OYF has gotten stronger and that 9-Yin really is "as good as advertised" to give such a boost to H7G. And tangentially, it must've done great wonders for GJ, which is now stronger than a previous LOCH Great



Then moving on, we discover there is GWM who is as strong as the aforementioned GJ. When GWM and the Mongol mercs attack QZ palace we have this quote:
"The Imperial Priest and the other Mongolian warriors had higher martial arts than the Five Masters of Quanzhen. It was practically impossible for the Quanzhen School to even produce someone like them now."

We know that the QZ elders have improved in martial arts and QCJ is the strongest, yet the 5 QZ elders are on average weaker than the Mongol mercs. And this is coming from the QZ elders who just came out of meditation after creating a new formation. Why I am bringing this up is to establish a baseline. Because LOCH QCJ was around par to MCF. And if these Mongol Mercs are at least as strong if not stronger than an ROCH QCJ, then they are stronger than everyone in LOCH wulin except maybe end LOCH GJ


Now we fast forward to post 16 years and we have this:
"Xiaoxiang Zi was still angry about the fact that Yang Guo broke his arm at Mount Zhongnan sixteen years ago. Although his internal strength had increased a lot, he knew he was no match for Yang Guo. He did not bother to look at Yang Guo again and turned around and started to descend the stairs."

This tells us a few things. As I established before, Mongol Mercs are quite strong and in these 16 years XiaoXiang Zi's internal was still increasing! And it didn't only increase slightly, it improved a lot-- which no one knows exactly by how much, but shouldn't be small gains if the author wants to describe the increase in this manor. Yet we know what happens right after when YG and HYS basically make them ping pong balls. Post 16 year Greats are actually extremely strong...especially if we want to factor in Elephant Pranja doubling GWM's internal


Summary:
1) There is definitely improvement from LOCH Great to end ROCH Great in terms of martial development
2) That development shouldn't just be tiny or only fractional.
3) Mongol Mercs by end of ROCH should be stronger than everyone in LOCH other than the Greats or GJ.
4) ROCH Greats basically play around with Mongo Mercs for fun

In comparison to SPW:
If we assume (again, assuming) that RWX/FZ is an LOCH GJ, then it means that LHC and XWT are only around Mongol merc levels or lower. Which means an ROCH Great can play ping pong with these guys and basically one hit KO them.

However, because I think like many old posters before, that RWX is an LOCH Great lvl. And that LHC and XWT should be somewhere between Mongol Merc and LOCH GJ. Thus, why DFBB (who is around ROCH Great) can toy with them, but can't quite ping pong them yet.



It's getting late.
I have some follow ups to your other points
And I discovered some interesting examples which demonstrate how internal and external technique are not always interdependent. And excelling at one can accomplish certain feats, yet isn't sufficient to increase overall fighting prowess. It also explains why GWM could've gotten double internal post 16 years and yet isn't leagues above the other Greats

[PJ]

There's two ways to look at DFBB vs Greats/Elites. The intuitive way is that since we don't see any Great-level fighter dominate with speed, we assume DFBB is faster and more dangerous, and that JY intended it that way. I previously proposed another way - that perhaps Greats/Elites CAN produce DFBB-like speed with comparable power (example), and they have done it occasionally (but very rarely). The reason they don't do it more, I believe, is the same reason LDA isn't seen more prior to DGSD: because JY hadn't thought of it in that context yet. Specifically, before SPW, JY wrote of speed as not much more than an elegant display of running - it didn't hold much practical combative value, at least for Great/Elite level fighters. Before SPW, there are very few cases of an elite fighter trying to win with speed. We do have the occasional Single-Stance Execution (SSE)-like displays such as XF tossing Evil #3 into a lake and HYS slapping GJ; some of those resemble DFBB speed IMO. But when it comes to a prolonged fight with an equal opponent, or even moderately weaker opponents, they just don't rely on speed 99% of time (instead focusing on internal energy). One of the few exceptions is JMZ appearing like a blur to MRF. JMZ clearly showed his speed advantage over MRF (and indeed subdued MRF quickly), and by association the other DGSD Elites should possess the same speed, but we don't see it demonstrated effectively beyond that exchange. So, just as we hardly see the Greats perform any LDA, I believe JY simply didn't realize it (LDA or speed) can be a real advantage until DGSD and SPW, respectively (and again, I'm talking about at the Great/Elite level). That's why, just as you see low level ppl in Trilogy like Yinggu do LDA (normal feat), you have ppl like Wei Yixiao and Evil #4 who are very fast but their speed doesn't help much in combat.

So, I am going to propose that if you think DFBB is much faster (therefore better) than Greats/Elites, then you must also accept that DGSD Elites are much more powerful than Greats because LDA. Personally, I believe DFBB is faster, and DGSD Elites' LDA is stronger, but in both cases not by much.

Another interesting thing is that JY says GWM can overpower XLN (who was winning against him with her speed) with his massive internal energy. This underscores the above point that at that point (before SPW), JY valued internal energy over speed. Whether or not that translates to someone slower than, but more powerful than, DFBB, being able to overpower him/her, is debatable, since, at least I'm proposing, JY elevated the role of speed in SPW.

However, that's just one way of looking at it.

[PJ]

1. Can a ROCH Great toy with 3 LOCH GJ?

This is an interesting question. It reminds me of Xiao Yuanshan and XF destroying a small army of First Class and sub-FC fighters. In XYS's case, the opponents included young Xuanci and Wang Jiantong + a bunch more. XC and WJT are probably each ~30% of XYS's level. All of them added together probably > XYS. And yet, they were hopefully destroyed by Xiao.

Juxian Zhuang was even more dramatic. The sea of opponents included 2 Xuan-generation monks, one of which got immobilized by XF (who was at the disadvantage) in one move. Although XF worried about being overpowered eventually (not an unfair assessment), he was not put to a disadvantage in the actual fight until ppl started attacking Ah Zhu.

So, I think XF and XYS in Pissed Off Mode (TM) can destroy 3 DYQ/Xuanci/DCQ/etc. But that's a unique quality to them.

[PJ]

Actually, one of the legit signs that SPW era kung fu might not be far behind that of Trilogy, is this line from the narrator (which has been debated to death, and is probably my second favorite praise about someone's martial arts by JY):

...This earth-shattering figure [Ren Woxing] has reached such high proficiency in the field of martial arts, that even if Dugu Qiubai returned from the tomb, or if Feng Qingyang personally came to entertain, they would nevertheless be extremely pleased to meet such a foe.

Personally, I think this can be explained by the Theory of Pre-Novel Ingloriousness, though it does hint that JY may not intend a big gap between Ren Woxing and Dugu Qiubai/Greats.

[CancerLuna]

@PJ : Wasn't that a joke thread? Haha

Anyway, my opinion is this:

Even the most skeptical of SPW martial arts generally agree that FZ/RWX is roughly LOCH GJ/Du Monk Level. While I personally think FZ is stronger than that, let's assume this 'worst case' scenario.

So we ask:

1. Can a ROCH Great toy with 3 LOCH GJ?

2. ZWJ, who we agree is at least ROCH Great LV, ~= 2 Du Monk.

*Of course if you argue about the formation then there's no way around it.

------------------

Hence, there's only 2 possibilities:

1) FZ is much weaker than LOCH GJ or much weaker than Du Monk. And hence the entire SPW martial arts is thrash.

2) DFBB is stronger than ROCH Great.

You mean 3 Du Monks right?

If we assume FZ is ~Du Monk. The math actually adds up rather well.

@Snafu's post was also very insightful, and I hadn't seen that point brought up in my time here (or at least missed it).

EDIT:

I'm still of the opinion that ZWJ's fighting abilities really aren't that great compared to any of the other Greats, it could be that the other Greats would steamroll the Du Monks (maybe an unpopular opinion).

[Snafu3721]

To add to the previous post

@PJ
Welcome back, good to see you posting more these days and adding those interesting perspectives. As for JY's quotes and whether to take them at face value-- I subscribe to a view similar to what you and other posters have mentioned. Simply, JY wrote DGSD and SPW after the Condor trilogy, hence his style has changed a bit and he probably struggled to link everything together in a perfect fashion. Because in LOCH and even in ROCH, there were examples of author narration that state 9-yin is the "greatest martial art under the heavens". Yet, that would completely go against everything in DGSD. So I think it is more reasonable to assume that JY sometimes writes random stuff as a way to express or emphasize a point that isn't meant to be literal. Kind of like these expressions, "a pain greater than a thousand needles" or "scale a mountain and jump into a river of fire" or "can resurrect dead to living 起死回生" or "achieving as the heart desires "


Techniques versus internal:
I think JY has bounced around examples where both have an advantage in certain situations and amazing feats of both. You have XZ and YTZ who clearly show what one can achieve having only internal. XZ tanked JMZ who had tier one techniques while YTZ can palm clash with XF and his tier one palms. Then you have LHC, and to many extents XLN/HR, where sheer technique makes up for lack of internal.

Having said this...no true elite is without both.

Look what happens when LHC gets roared! Or what would happen to XLN had greater pressure been applied. Or why XLN and YG with Jade maiden can't really dominate wulin (if not for super weapons, they would've gotten their swords broken by an elite or at some point they would run out of internal)

Basically having internal is having great fuel and a great engine. But if your car sucks and isn't aerodynamic and has crap steering and handling, you won't win many races. Sure you can last very long driving straight.. But that's it. (Btw I'm sure I've made this car analogy before)
And to add to the car analogy, a martial practitioner is like the driver. Through his/her wit and experience can efficiently utilize their engine and car for different situations.

[PJ]

I'm still of the opinion that ZWJ's fighting abilities really aren't that great compared to any of the other Greats, it could be that the other Greats would steamroll the Du Monks (maybe an unpopular opinion).

He doesn't always use his full potential, but when facing the 3 Du monks, he did.

The Vajra Demon-Taming Circle is greater than the sum of the individual 3 monks. Since the weakest monk by himself = Yang Xiao + Yin Tianzheng combined, that means the circle =~ 8 Yang Xiao's. You'd have to think the other Greats > 8 Yang Xiao's to think they > ZWJ.

Since it was basically a competition of internal energy, he probably performed better than most other Greats.

[CancerLuna]

He doesn't always use his full potential, but when facing the 3 Du monks, he did.

The Vajra Demon-Taming Circle is greater than the sum of the individual 3 monks. Since the weakest monk by himself = Yang Xiao + Yin Tianzheng combined, that means the circle =~ 8 Yang Xiao's. You'd have to think the other Greats > 8 Yang Xiao's to think they > ZWJ.

Since it was basically a competition of internal energy, he probably performed better than most other Greats.

I'm always a little hesitant to say 'SoandSo can definitely beat 8 SoandSos' just because real combat never actually plays out that way in JY's novels.

I'll flip it though, if I assume ZWJ is >~= 8 Yang Xiaos, then yes, I do think a Great should be able to rock 8 Yang Xiaos (barring any synergy or additionstyle summing up everyones powerlevel into one entity).

In fact I wonder if the guys from here

This is an interesting question. It reminds me of Xiao Yuanshan and XF destroying a small army of First Class and sub-FC fighters. In XYS's case, the opponents included young Xuanci and Wang Jiantong + a bunch more. XC and WJT are probably each ~30% of XYS's level. All of them added together probably > XYS. And yet, they were hopefully destroyed by Xiao.

Juxian Zhuang was even more dramatic. The sea of opponents included 2 Xuan-generation monks, one of which got immobilized by XF (who was at the disadvantage) in one move. Although XF worried about being overpowered eventually (not an unfair assessment), he was not put to a disadvantage in the actual fight until ppl started attacking Ah Zhu.

Can together beat 8 Yang Xiaos in a group vs group fight.

When I put it that way, seemingly, the DGSD group might have the upper win rate in my mind (though I didn't think too heavily about this scenario).

[Snafu3721]

Very convenient to see this old thread get bumped to front page. Great at showing hows sometimes there are problems taking JY literally

http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...u#.WQLVbfl96Uk

I like the example in that thread where when JY tries to illustrate the power of a strike, he literally mentions an attack that even H7G or WCY can't defend although Sun Bu Er actually blocks the attack. JY is clearly using powerful Elite martial artist to reference the severity of the strike

Hence, I believe JY did the same thing when he said "If Dugu is alive today......etc...etc." Which is why IMHO. I don't believe that line is meant to be taken literally, but should only be used as a reference.

[WuxiaMaster]

I believe a ROCH Great actually can toy around 3 LOCH GJ's. I will provide my explanation...but I admit, there are some odd inconsistencies in JY's power scale that also makes me raise an eyebrow sometime.

Summary:
1) There is definitely improvement from LOCH Great to end ROCH Great in terms of martial development
2) That development shouldn't just be tiny or only fractional.

I agree that the Condor Greats power are oddly inconsistent and it is not very clear how much they improved from LOCH to ROCH. There is however, some issues in assuming that ROCH Greats improve significantly from LOCH Greats. I have 3 arguments to make:

1. Why are they still weaker than WCY after practicing 9YZJ for 30 years. Okay, we can resolve this with author intention, What about ZBT? ZBT "force forget" 9YZJ and I believe he never 'deliberately' practice it in these 30 years. Why is he still 'slightly stronger' than the Greats? Author intention again?

2. QQR. QQR never touched 9YZJ at all. Why does YD need '1000 exchanges and hope to win by half a stroke' against him? YD, and all other greats, should destroy him easily if they really improved a lot (which, if a lot, can only be due to 9YZJ).

3. GJ caught up to the Greats after ~10 years of 9YZJ practice (fought to a draw with OYF). I will elaborate on this 3rd point below.

-----------------------------

GJ 'started out' at 70% of Greats.

After 10 years (during childhood Yang Guo Time), GJ fought to a draw with OYF (we assume 4 Greats are roughly same at all point of time).

GJ and the greats all have the same 10 years of practice with 9YZJ.

If the Greats started out 30% ahead, wouldn't they stay ahead of GJ after the same 10 years of practice?

One possible argument would be GJ practice everyday and the Greats do travelling, chant sutra, etc... In this case it doesn't matter, means LOCH Great ~= ROCH Great since they didn't improve.

However, the more plausible scenario (and the one I like to believe) is 9YZJ DIDN'T help the Greats that much. (Note: This goes against the narrative)

Guo Jing was able to reach Greats status in 10 years, and Greats who started quite far ahead didn't remain ahead of Guo Jing, even when they all have access to the same manual. Hence, I am of the opinion that there is a ceiling to how far 9YZJ can bring you, which is IMO, a bit (say 5-10%) above LOCH Greats level.

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If we accept this point that 9YZJ did not improve the Greats much, then the only 'progression' the greats have from LOCH to ROCH is the natural 'base rate' progression (i.e gain deeper/more refined internal as they grow older).

[CancerLuna]

I really think what throws a hamper on things is WCY's power level. He was intended to be stronger than all the greats. Okay, why do we assume he was only slightly better than them? Maybe we can just assume he was much stronger and was already at the ROCH Great level in LOCH (lets say we ignore any potential LOCH tidbits that would indicate otherwise).

With that out of the way, all other logical progressions make sense.

The other factor is maybe.... just maybe... WCY wasn't better than the other Greats afterall. I'd need a full list of 'author intention' quotes on WCY to really slide one way on this.

[PJ]

@PJ
Welcome back, good to see you posting more these days and adding those interesting perspectives.

Thanks! I think my views haven't changed much, but hopefully I can articulate them a bit better now.

Very curious about your aforementioned thoughts on Greats/GWM doubling. Do post it if you can.

Techniques versus internal:
I think JY has bounced around examples where both have an advantage in certain situations and amazing feats of both. You have XZ and YTZ who clearly show what one can achieve having only internal. XZ tanked JMZ who had tier one techniques while YTZ can palm clash with XF and his tier one palms. Then you have LHC, and to many extents XLN/HR, where sheer technique makes up for lack of internal.

XLN is a good example before SPW. But LHC is like her on steroids.

Having said this...no true elite is without both.

True. But I wonder about someone like post-castration Lin Pingzhi. With someone like post-9YBGZ Zhou Zhiruo, once you know her trick you can defeat her easily. But I'm not sure the same can be said about the super fast Lin (I need to re-read that part again). If you can have the power of Lin without having to sacrifice a body part (which, admittedly, leaves us with very few examples), would you really want to spend 20x more time to reach 1/3 of the main effectiveness? Personally, I think JY made Lin and Zhou too powerful too quickly to make it more exciting. Sure those weird arts can give tremendous power, but the inexperienced practitioners should still stumble a bit, which we don't see them do. Their powers increase 10-20x almost overnight and they are described as having supreme command of the new skill they just learned. Not unlike LHC, but at least he had personal guidance from a genius. Zhou and Lin learned from a book.

[PJ]

I like the example in that thread where when JY tries to illustrate the power of a strike, he literally mentions an attack that even H7G or WCY can't defend although Sun Bu Er actually blocks the attack. JY is clearly using powerful Elite martial artist to reference the severity of the strike

I tend to think JY skipped some details in the action, i.e. his description is not blow by blow. I assume when Sun Bu'er tried to block HYS' attack, the other taoists came to her rescue (like JY explicitly described a moment before), and HYS switched the attack.

This would also help explain why JY insists Z3F had a palm clash with He Biweng when there was no such explicit description in the book.

So I'm not ready to completely dismiss his comparative references to other characters yet.

[Snafu3721]

I agree that the Condor Greats power are oddly inconsistent and it is not very clear how much they improved from LOCH to ROCH. There is however, some issues in assuming that ROCH Greats improve significantly from LOCH Greats. I have 3 arguments to make:

1. Why are they still weaker than WCY after practicing 9YZJ for 30 years. Okay, we can resolve this with author intention, What about ZBT? ZBT "force forget" 9YZJ and I believe he never 'deliberately' practice it in these 30 years. Why is he still 'slightly stronger' than the Greats? Author intention again?

Technically ZBT believed he is marginally stronger than a Great not because of 9-Yin but actually because of L/R technique. I've mentioned before that L/R can cause its practitioner to jump a few levels. Like it did for GJ when he first learned it (as demonstrated against OYK). So it can be argued that he maintains a slight edge over all the Greats because of this. Also ZBT never could really "force forget" the 9-Yin, in fact uses demon subduing fist against YG which shows he no longer cared about restricting himself. ZBT also is the only one who has all non-sanskrit portions of the 9-Yin whereas YD and H7G only have the inner power portions.

2. QQR. QQR never touched 9YZJ at all. Why does YD need '1000 exchanges and hope to win by half a stroke' against him? YD, and all other greats, should destroy him easily if they really improved a lot (which, if a lot, can only be due to 9YZJ).

QQR was always marginally weaker than the Greats. And there is no reason why any of the Greats should jump drastically above QQR because none of them have the full 9-Yin. Also, it would not seem unreasonable to assume that QQR's growth curve is around the same as a Great, which means that ROCH QQR is also a lot stronger than a LOCH QQR.

3. GJ caught up to the Greats after ~10 years of 9YZJ practice (fought to a draw with OYF). I will elaborate on this 3rd point below.

-----------------------------

GJ 'started out' at 70% of Greats.

After 10 years (during childhood Yang Guo Time), GJ fought to a draw with OYF (we assume 4 Greats are roughly same at all point of time).

GJ and the greats all have the same 10 years of practice with 9YZJ.

If the Greats started out 30% ahead, wouldn't they stay ahead of GJ after the same 10 years of practice?

One possible argument would be GJ practice everyday and the Greats do travelling, chant sutra, etc... In this case it doesn't matter, means LOCH Great ~= ROCH Great since they didn't improve.

The greats didn't have access to the full 9-Yin. OYF had a broken one, H7G and YD had the internal bits, and HYS didn't have any.

Also analyzing how much GJ and each Great practiced could be interpreted with an opposite effect as you proposed-- it could've been GJ practiced a lot with the 9-Yin from LOCH to ROCH and hence had huge improvements (even catching up to OYF). But once he started defending Xiang Yang, he couldn't devote his time and his rate of improvement slowed drastically thus allowing the other Greats to catch up.

However, the more plausible scenario (and the one I like to believe) is 9YZJ DIDN'T help the Greats that much. (Note: This goes against the narrative)

Guo Jing was able to reach Greats status in 10 years, and Greats who started quite far ahead didn't remain ahead of Guo Jing, even when they all have access to the same manual. Hence, I am of the opinion that there is a ceiling to how far 9YZJ can bring you, which is IMO, a bit (say 5-10%) above LOCH Greats level.

I had argued in another thread about 9-yin and its benefits. Instead of saying the the rate of gain slows down for 9-yin, I had proposed that it was just becoming a steeper curve to break new plateaus. Like leveling up in a RPG game, you always level faster in the beginning, but it requires more and more exp to break new levels in the end. Which at some point in time allows for GJ to only keep a slight advantage above the Greats-- and it also sort of explains "active" practicing vs "passive" practicing

If we accept this point that 9YZJ did not improve the Greats much, then the only 'progression' the greats have from LOCH to ROCH is the natural 'base rate' progression (i.e gain deeper/more refined internal as they grow older).

Even if we completely removed 9-yin from the equation and assume that it did very little to help the Greats, it still doesn't mean that the Greats base rate progression is slow. It could be that even without 9-yin existing at all, ROCH Greats would be way stronger than a LOCH Great

[tape]

He doesn't always use his full potential, but when facing the 3 Du monks, he did.

The Vajra Demon-Taming Circle is greater than the sum of the individual 3 monks. Since the weakest monk by himself = Yang Xiao + Yin Tianzheng combined, that means the circle =~ 8 Yang Xiao's. You'd have to think the other Greats > 8 Yang Xiao's to think they > ZWJ.

Since it was basically a competition of internal energy, he probably performed better than most other Greats.

One thing though is when YTZ and YX tied up a Du Monk, why was Wuji unable to demolish one Du monk and break the formation? I can't imagine any other Great not injuring a Du monk heavily over a few dozen stances (seems like it took that long since they got in a inner strength competition) when they know that's the key to victory.

Agree completely that 1v3 Wuji against that particular formation he probably does best, but he also really does suck in most other ways.

[Snafu3721]

An idea on Technique, Internal, and how it balances out even GWM:

I have been going back and playing some of those old JY video games and started to look at the codes and how they determine damage. Those games have crap formulas btw.... so as I dug deeper, I started to look at a lot of Japanese RPG's and how they determine stats, equipment, damage, and even ceiling mechanisms in the formulas

Anyways, without getting too deep into all the math here are some thoughts

Every person has a base stat and they level up. As they gain levels, they increase their stats. However, some stats stop after reaching a ceiling such as "vigor" or "HP" because of old age.


Internal energy can be viewed as a two component variable. Let's call the first variable the Internal Quotient. It is a variable that influences all other stats (including tanking damage or resisting poison/other internal attacks). So someone who has vigor stat of 1 and internal baseline of 1 would recover 1 HP per day. But someone who has a vigor stat of 1 but has internal baseline of 2 would recover 2 HP per day. Something to that effect. The second component to Internal Energy is obvious the amount of usable Magic Points (MP)

Techniques are like your spells. They allow you to draw upon your MP, but different tier spells have different rates of utilization and output isn't linear. Example: In Final Fantasy Fire 1 would cost 5 MP and lets say do a baseline damage of 100. Fire 2 uses 10 MP but the baseline damage is 300. This is because different tier techniques has different formulas for output

Actual damage is calculated using a techniques output formula and the variables that goes into the formula are your stats. Then it goes through a logarithmic multiplier which is your Internal Quotient which is your damage...

Bonus multipliers are things that you either use to multiply damage or can give a special statuses. One example would be an "elemental" multiplier-- so icy palms do special icy damage, but is easy countered by someone who has "yang" elemental. Another example would be formations which give a special synergy multiplier. Or L/R which gives a double cast multiplier


Levels are gained via exp. They usually boost all the base stats but do not boost Internal Quotient. And the higher the level, the better at adapting to a situation and better then Fighting instinct.

Increasing Internal Quotient: Active practice of an internal formula. Exceptions are formulas that grant passive Internal Quotient growth
______________________


So how does this apply to JY:

So let's take a few examples starting with XZ

When he first receives WYZ's internal, he gets this huge boost to his Internal Quotient (which exponentially boost his other stats). And his MP goes through the roof. But he still only has tier one techniques. He's basically like a level 1 player who got an insane stat multiplier but can't utilize it well. So he's like using Fire 1 spells that are very inefficient but actually do decent damage...Let's say that normally people who learn Fire 1 is level 1 with internal Quotient of 2 and does 100 damage. XZ would do like 500 damage

Next XZ learns TSLYZ and gains like 10 levels from training with Tong Lao. So now he has higher stats and better fighting instinct (like he wouldn't repeat one palm over and over like GJ did when he first learned XL18P). With this he can now do 5000 damage

___________________________

Applying this to odd situations:

XF- He has great stats, and is very high leveled but only above average Internal Quotient. Has access to tier 1 techniques.
This grants him incredible instinct, reacts quickly to all situations, can come up with new methods on the spot. His original stats were already good, but due to his Internal Quotient, can't do things that DY and XZ can do.

YTZ- Has crap stats, very low leveled, but incredible Internal Quotient. Has at least a tier 2 palm technique. His instincts are bad, can't react much and has to rely on MRF, but can palm clash with XF. Because of the elemental factor, his palms can do damage to XF that an ordinary palm of the same power shouldn't.

MRF- average stats, high leveled, average Internal Quotient. Has a lot of tier 3 techniques and some tier 2 (depending where you rank Star Shift). Instincts are good, and can switch strategy and change approach. But can't palm clash with guys like XF

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Regarding the ROCH and GWM doubling

let me start by saying this came to me when I was reading the passage of the YG dueling HYS.
When YG first threw palms at HYS, HYS countered using his own palm. It was stated that although HYS's palm techniques was average, he is able to counter YG due to HYS's sheer amount of Internal Energy. But as the duel carried on, it was stated that HYS's palm techniques paled in comparison to YG's, which forced HYS to have to use his finger flick. It basically brings up the point that the "exquisiteness" or quality of technique matters even though HYS is drawing from the same pool of internal.

GWM- Stats are ok, high strength. Level is medium hence the "brainfarts" (reason why his level might not be high is because he probably didn't fight many high level fighters. Like RPG's, sometimes a character levels up way faster fighting stronger opponents. So not much time to hone strategy and battle wits.) Very high Internal Quotient but very average tier techniques. This is why he bumbles around in ROCH even though he seems powerful. But it's actually due mostly to his Internal Quotient. And why he never seems to be able to outperform a Great when it's damage related clashes. However, he can outlast a Great when it comes to MP reservoir and direct Internal competitions. This is also why I think it is possible that he may have doubled his internal post 16 years. He is clearly able to hold off 2 Greats when it comes to internal, but because his techniques are so substandard, he isn't really putting forth more damage output. So like the YG and HYS example, GWM is constantly fending of tier 1 techniques using his tier 3 techniques. It means that he has to have significant internal to be able to achieve this. Also, GWM could have doubled his internal while the other Greats increased like 40%. There is some deeper math to be done, but we can't just assume that GWM doubled and none of the other Greats improved at all. And I've always felt that YG's internal pre-16 and post 16 at least doubled if not more!

[Ken Cheng]

One thing though is when YTZ and YX tied up a Du Monk, why was Wuji unable to demolish one Du monk and break the formation? I can't imagine any other Great not injuring a Du monk heavily over a few dozen stances (seems like it took that long since they got in a inner strength competition) when they know that's the key to victory.

Same as always: deep down, Cheung Mo Gei didn't want to harm the monks. Even if his conscious mind was telling him that he HAD to do it to save Tse Tsun, his subconscious mind was likely holding him back.

[PJ]

One thing though is when YTZ and YX tied up a Du Monk, why was Wuji unable to demolish one Du monk and break the formation? I can't imagine any other Great not injuring a Du monk heavily over a few dozen stances (seems like it took that long since they got in a inner strength competition) when they know that's the key to victory.

This is a good point. I haven't read that part for a while (and am too lazy to now ), but I believe the formation is still somewhat effective with only 2 monks. BUT, having said that, when 8 experts headed by Hao Mi and Bu Tai attacked the 3 monks, and Hao Mi deprived Dunan (who was distracted by ZWJ) of his whip, it was said that:

又想到适才他就算不是乘人之危，只须袖手旁观，两不相助，当卜泰破了“金刚伏魔圈”攻到身边之时，以河间双 煞下手之辣，此刻三僧早已不在人世。

We know that 3 monks in formation =~ 8 experts. Yet, when one monk has lost the whip, even with him assisting the other 2 monks, they together would perish against the 8 experts. Wuji also =~ 3 monks in formation, so by association, he should defeat 2 monks (without 3rd monk assisting) without much trouble. We know he would defeat them eventually, but it was taking a long time. Whereas, with the 8 experts, it was written as though the 3 monks were screwed as soon as one whip was dropped.

So yeah, I think he underperformed. I agree with Ken, he didn't go all out.

[PJ]

BTW, here's another Super Sonic Speed demonstrated by a Great. This one is just unreal.

Yideng - Has he reached the PEAK of PERFECTION in LMWSU?

[tape]

I agree with Ken, he didn't go all out.

At what point is not going all out simply not an excuse anymore though? The only time that he went all out I suppose is against Ah Er, (and he blew him through a wall) but there was a huge gap so we can't even use that to judge.

Wuji sounds kind of like he has a weird version of Sad Palms -- KIND PALMS that can only be used against super evil people that really deserve a beating.