One thing on GWM vs YG comparing internals is that they did clash twice. Once with palms, and second with weapons and both times parity was indicated.
Maybe YG has the far superior Internal compared to the other Greats too (GJ excluded).
One thing on GWM vs YG comparing internals is that they did clash twice. Once with palms, and second with weapons and both times parity was indicated.
Maybe YG has the far superior Internal compared to the other Greats too (GJ excluded).
Zwj has incredible defence lei. He can practically expel any poisons given his healing knowledge and ability. Plus he has qian kun da nuo yi and 9 yang at peak levels which give him strong internals and expel anything. Yg and gj will fall prey to poisons and they have weaker defence. We should not judge a character's ability just based on offence.
Then, Zwj also knows taiji quan/sword and can use opponents strength to his advantage. Also learn things fast.
Last edited by hyruga; 05-06-17 at 10:06 PM.
I think it points that YG may indeed have better than the other Greats. Excluding GJ
This is YG's own thoughts. It indicates that:Just a moment ago they exchanged one stance and Yang Guo felt that the palm energy of Fawang was solid, robust and strong. He had never encountered such power amongst his former adversaries. He was surprised by this. He had trained in the waves of the ocean and was capable of withstanding the strong forces of the tide’s waves. Sixteen years ago Fawang was no match for him; but today, after exchanging one blow, he was almost unable to withstand that blast.
1) GWM's power is stronger than previous adversaries which should include HYS and ZBT.
2) YG felt he was almost unable to withstand the force, which he never felt from HYS
So GWM's regular low tier Palm can generate a force that YG feels is the strongest he's ever felt.
It could be that the Greats are actually quite a bit lower than GWM in internal and only barely make up for it in technique and experience.
My feeling is YG has internal energy somewhere between the Greats and GWM. Which is why once sad palms is activated, YG does gain an upper hand
Just throwing arbitrary numbers:
Greats internal is 60
YG internal is 80
GWM intenral is 100
Greats technique is 100
Happy YG is 80
Sad YG is 100
GWM technique is 60
It's just a rough idea. We still have to factor in Level and experience, and desciminate the details. But it helps rationalize elephant prana and YG's prowess relative to the other Greats.
Another factor to consider for GWM
During his fight with ZBT and co. He was actually distraught and emotionally unstable, which hindered his performance. He was also a bit scared that he has to deal with more than one Great.
If we would consider that his performance dropped overall, then it is impressive that GWM performed as well as he did.
And if we can acknowledge a formula/theory where we factor Internal+technique+level.... I'm hoping it does change how we've evaluated the Greats, YG, GWM by splitting Internal and technique and putting a weighting on a different scale than we have in the past.
It can then be applied to the other novels and see if we can resolve some of the issues using this perspective.
__________
And as I comb over details, it's starting to make YG feel way stronger than I had previously imagined him. I have upgraded YG personally in my own rankings. But it also makes me feel better about GWM doubling internal claim
That list is quite biased against ZWJ - intensifying his underperformance while downplaying his strength. For example:
4. In the second fight, Wuji got help from Yang Xiao and Yin Tianzheng. In the novel, we only see how Yang Xiao and Yin Tianzheng fought against the Three Monks, it was almost like Wuji did not exist during this part. The only thing we know is that wuji used his internal power to compete with the monks, while Yang Xiao and Grandfather Yin launched attacks.
^ I take that to mean ZWJ still couldn't win 1v2 during the second fight. Honestly this is pretty bad.
Unfortunately, Lav doesn't mention that Wuji was on the verge of beating Dujie:
斗到此时,渡劫背靠松树,须得借助大树之力,方能与张无忌的
九阳神功相抗。倘若殷天正支持不住,那便是明教输了,若是渡劫先一步难以抵挡,则是
少林派落败。出手相斗的六人更加明白这中间的关键所在。
This isn't the only example. All I can say is to go by what happens in the novel, rather than the incomplete descriptions in the list.
忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」
I have to admit the arguments are quite strong in downgrading ZWJ from level 77 to something much lower in WuxiaMaster's character ranking chart. As another user said, if GWM (pre-16) is downgraded for his choking, so why not ZWJ? It's embarrassing that the guy is potentially the most powerful protagonist in Jin Yong's novels, but yet he's such a choker. The other protagonist in JY's novels I would rank that high in terms of potential is LHC, except that LHC is not a choker and over performs when under extreme duress.
I say rank ZWJ at level 70 at the Sub-Greats level/LOCH Great level with the explanation that his internal and skill set is level 75+ but because of his mentality he is ranked much lower. I mean Xiao Feng is ranked level 80 when it's been explained in the chart that his internal and skill set is only level 75, but because of his warrior mentality he's ranked higher. So I say the same should apply to ZWJ, but in reverse.
Slight comment here. In my head, YG == GJ at the very least. If we think YG is better (as in better than 'slightly better'), than YG should also be better than GJ.
There was not many mentions of GJ rising in power level, and looking at the plot itself (he was defending XY), there's no reason to think he improved much during those 16 years.
(This is following PJ's theory that noone increased their abilities unless there was SOMETHING.)
Maybe, I'm wrong but this argument feels `slightly` circular. I do think GWM's palm technique is not better than YG, but it shouldn't be THAT much worse. (I brought up the GJ vs GWM palm clash.)
This is YG's own thoughts. It indicates that:
1) GWM's power is stronger than previous adversaries which should include HYS and ZBT.
2) YG felt he was almost unable to withstand the force, which he never felt from HYS
So GWM's regular low tier Palm can generate a force that YG feels is the strongest he's ever felt.
In GJ vs GWM, it was indicated GJ (technique) and GWM (internal) but the ratios (at least my takeaway) was more like:
Internal
GJ 95
GWM 100
Technique
GJ 100
GWM 95
I do agree that GWM probably has better IE than YG but the ratios of the numbers seem a little off to me.My feeling is YG has internal energy somewhere between the Greats and GWM. Which is why once sad palms is activated, YG does gain an upper hand
Just throwing arbitrary numbers:
Greats internal is 60
YG internal is 80
GWM intenral is 100
Greats technique is 100
Happy YG is 80
Sad YG is 100
GWM technique is 60
It's just a rough idea. We still have to factor in Level and experience, and desciminate the details. But it helps rationalize elephant prana and YG's prowess relative to the other Greats.
First off, the reason why I brought up the sword/wheel clash was that I don't think the 'technique' there mattered that much (unless we're thinking YG also had the superior technique when clashing sword/wheels...).
The palm clash indicated parity. (OK, if it was just this one occurence, we can chalk it up to YG (better technique), GWM (better internal)).
The second sword/wheel clash indicated parity. (Now it seems YG ~= GWM in IE.) is my thought.
With that said, I do agree with your overall takeaway.
My numbers (ignoring the Greats)
Internal
Happy YG 95
GWM 100
Technique
Happy YG 100
Sad YG 110+~
GWM 85
(Remember, Happy YG was still decisively winning against GWM.)
Yes, I believe Sad Palms YG is pretty damn strong on his own, his HIS should really make him one of the strongest Protagonists.
The facepalm comes from the fact that he didn't just destroy them if it was 1v2. Him 'on the verge' of beating Dujie doesn't really cut it IMO.
I know that's the specific example you pointed out, but even that one has no excuse in my opinion.
I agree, 72/73 is where I'd put him too (or the first number below QQR).
I'm kind of walking back on that theory now I think Snafu's theory of "technique-IE interaction" is more compatible with what is said AND shown in the novels, so I'm advocating that now.
Yes we know JY said GJ =~ Wheelie and need 1000 stances to differentiate, but there's just NO WAY that can possibly be the case when you consider their individual performances. All things considered, I'd say Wheelie at that point is around 70% of GJ's effectiveness.In GJ vs GWM, it was indicated GJ (technique) and GWM (internal) but the ratios (at least my takeaway) was more like:
Internal
GJ 95
GWM 100
Technique
GJ 100
GWM 95
The key theory is that GWM cannot fully utilize his IE due to his weak technique, while GJ/YG/etc can. So the math can be something like this:I do agree that GWM probably has better IE than YG but the ratios of the numbers seem a little off to me.
First off, the reason why I brought up the sword/wheel clash was that I don't think the 'technique' there mattered that much (unless we're thinking YG also had the superior technique when clashing sword/wheels...).
The palm clash indicated parity. (OK, if it was just this one occurence, we can chalk it up to YG (better technique), GWM (better internal)).
The second sword/wheel clash indicated parity. (Now it seems YG ~= GWM in IE.) is my thought.
With that said, I do agree with your overall takeaway.
Pre-16 years, IE level
GWM: raw = 100 , effective = 80
YG: raw = 70, effective = 70
Post-16 years, IE level
GWM: raw = 160 , effective = 120
YG: raw = 120 , effective = 120
This would explain the "doubling" claim (the Chinese word can also mean "significantly improve", so it's not necessary that they exactly doubled) AND why YG == GWM in direct clash.
We're comparing taking a while to defeat 2 Du monks vs getting hit on the head by Ma Guangzuo and not being able to defeat Li Mochou quickly, right? My point again is that Wuji's post-Taiji underperformances (other than Persians) are not as weak as GWM's Pre-16 years embarrassments. Wuji only has one true embarrassment (Persians), while we see several for Wheelie. We also see more impressive feats from Wuji than Wheelie, IMO. So if we consider all the feats (good and bad), I have trouble concluding that Wuji =~ Wheelie in choking. Wuji is quite a bit better.The facepalm comes from the fact that he didn't just destroy them if it was 1v2. Him 'on the verge' of beating Dujie doesn't really cut it IMO.
I know that's the specific example you pointed out, but even that one has no excuse in my opinion.
Post-16 years Wheelie, that's a different story. He did very well against the old Greats.
Last edited by PJ; 05-08-17 at 11:09 PM.
忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」
I am just talking about the specific palm clash and not what would happen in a true 1v1.
That's what I'm debating. Assume YG vs GWM (sword vs wheels) had no bearing on technique. It has to be a 100% comparison of IE only.
The key theory is that GWM cannot fully utilize his IE due to his weak technique, while GJ/YG/etc can. So the math can be something like this:
Pre-16 years, IE level
GWM: raw = 100 , effective = 80
YG: raw = 70, effective = 70
Post-16 years, IE level
GWM: raw = 160 , effective = 120
YG: raw = 120 , effective = 120
This would explain the "doubling" claim (the Chinese word can also mean "significantly improve", so it's not necessary that they exactly doubled) AND why YG == GWM in direct clash.
That's why I think even though GWM may have slightly more, YG should be pretty close in IE.
Another point to consider (Sad Palms), we all believe it's a Great Level Art what is ~= 18 Dragon Palms. So if it's at the Great~ level, what would it be at if YG is happy? Lets say it's <Great level.
Then both YG and GWM would clash like so.
Technique
YG <Great
GWM <Great
Internal
YG > Great
GWM > Great
(In the end, we all might be saying the same thing with different numbers). My point is that YG had to have gained a lot of IE through the 16 years from his ocean training.
(By the way, I do agree with the theory when it comes to actual/potential fights.)
I don't discount the Persians in ZWJ's record. If we include them, he starts looking pretty bad. I digress, lets say I'm convinced and agree GWM Pre16 is a bigger choker than ZWJ and we can safely rate GWM at 70% of a Great.
We're comparing taking a while to defeat 2 Du monks vs getting hit on the head by Ma Guangzuo and not being able to defeat Li Mochou quickly, right? My point again is that Wuji's post-Taiji underperformances (other than Persians) are not as weak as GWM's Pre-16 years embarrassments. Wuji only has one true embarrassment (Persians), while we see several for Wheelie. We also see more impressive feats from Wuji than Wheelie, IMO. So if we consider all the feats (good and bad), I have trouble concluding that Wuji =~ Wheelie in choking. Wuji is quite a bit better.
Post-16 years Wheelie, that's a different story. He did very well against the old Greats.
ZWJ shouldn't be that much better and should at the max be 85-90% of a Great then.
For GWM vs YG sword and wheel clash
I don't love this argument, but it does make sense and can then be applied to the internal vs technique theory.
Immediately after the clash, YG regretted not having the HIS. And the author goes on to describe, that YG didn't bring HIS because he was using Jade Maiden sword play.
So it can be argued that YG was using at least a tier 2 technique vs GWM's random wheel technique (which if the internal theory holds true, GWM may really be the acorn throwing XZ of ROCH)
Perhaps why GWM keep having those famous brainfart moments is because he lacked sophisticated techniques. Even the clowns showed impressive internal control, yet no one can demonstrate anything "exquisite" stances. That may be why he kept getting embarrassed throughout the story, or why he gets scared by XLN and looks stupid in front of ZBT. He's just not used to coming to the central plains and seeing all the profound techniques.
But I think definitely we're all on the same page, perhaps there may be some details missing, but hopefully this can then explain ROCH feats relative to LOCH greats
Just wanted to bring this back to the original post
I hope we can establish that ROCH Greats can be significantly stronger than LOCH Greats.
If this is something that is feasible, then we can bring it back to the original idea of whether a ROCH Great can fight 3 LOCH GJ's
This is factor #1
Then comes the long discussion of how strong are LHC and Co. relative to LOCH Greats
which would be factor #2
I've covered some reasons in the JY ranking thread. But for summary:
-Without any special exception, it is rare that any major sect produce students that surpass their predecessor (hence the general decline of the sect's reputation). Shaolin tends to be the exception as JY likes them to have random surprises such as Fire monk, Sweeper Monk, YJJ. But even as time goes on, those little surprises tended to die out as well. Perhaps because whenever someone discovers a super manuscript or art, they don't tend to bring it BACK to Shaolin
-Without the Pixie swordplay, the Huashan sect was very weak as detailed in HSDS. Therefore, the average 5 Mountain sect should not be any better. And IMO, this applies to the wulin we see throughout the story.
-Depending on how strong RWX is, it would determine XWT and LHC. RWX is usually measured against FZ who has YJJ. The argument then goes to determine how strong FZ really is
I would like to argue that YJJ as shown in DGSD is 1st class Internal, but still not enough to bring YTZ to 1st tier. But given that FZ has good Shaolin techniques (since techniques better utilize IE, then FZ can then be considered 1st class). This then depends whether we think FZ is LOCH 1st class, or ROCH 1st class. And whether FZ is around as strong as a LOCH Great
But I also think that LHC is significantly weaker than RWX . Because if LHC was faced with a true elite, they would be able to figure a 1-hit KO very quickly. Example: I think after any Greats caliber fighter who fought LHC for a few exchanges, they'd figure out 1) not to fight him with a sword and 2) he'd be weak to Physical attacks (as he didn't master palm breaking stance) and internal attacks such as Shouts
This just leaves XWT which is somewhere between LHC and RWX.
___________________________
Combining factor 1 and 2 would be how we'd sort of deduce where DFBB is relative to ROCH
This is where we can start making comparisons if we believe ROCH Greats are stronger than LOCH Greats.
SPW has a lot more granularity in their placements too which is both more interesting but harder to place.
What was it?
Peach Fairies 6 Streams <= 2 More <= Monk No Commandment, etc etc,
I am thinking YBQ and the Mountain alliance are absolute scrubs relative to the rest of YG canon.
If FZ ~= RWX ~= CX etc and then we go and say FZ ~= LOCH Great AND LOCH Great ~= ROCH Great, that means Chongxu is ~= ZSF which to me unbelievable.
Even if we tackle the topic separately and assume LOCH Great << ROCH Great and FZ ~= LOCH Great, I still don't think CX is anywhere near an LOCH Great. So where do we place FZ and CX relative to LOCH Great. Dunno maybe between Du Monks and an LOCH Great.
Yes, it does 'nerf' the SPW fighters a lot but I can buy that we're reading a story about weaker fighters in a weaker time.
I think Dongfang Bubai as good as Guo Jing/Yang Guo at their "peak"..
If The Condor Greats always potrayed to overwhelming opponent with their "technique" then Dongfang Bubai rely on "speed" and DGSD Elites on "power" so they are equal IMHO
😅😅😅😅
Kinda late response but I won't go as far as saying YBQ and gang are "absolute scrub". QZ Elders can be consider absolute scrub in front of greats, but they can definitely hold their own against the general wulin. I would think the mountain leaders are at least Jin Merc level.
On Chong Xu, I think it's quite clearly stated he's half a league below FZ/RWX. Assuming FZ is LOCH Great level, CX is not anywhere near Z3F, who is at least ROCH great tier.
This is the lvl I believe that DFBB should be around.
Since I think that peak ROCH GJ/YG should be able to easily handle RWX, LHC, XWT
Even if we discount the pre-16 and post 16 year gains in ROCH.
YG with HIS was able to basically take on GWM and Jin Mercs with ease. And GWM is supposedly much stronger than an LOCH Great (given that early ROCH GJ was slightly superior to OYF =~ but roughly equal with early GWM>> LOCH Greats). So a post-16 year YG with Sad Palms and much more internal surely can take on a LOCH Great+ LOCH GJ+LOCH HR (which is analogous to RWX + XWT + LHC)
Hey Wuxiamaster-- coming back for more Condor vs SPW?!
I agree a lot with your aspects of your comment
I think if one subscribes to the "SPW is a weaker wulin overall" concept (which I do)... then the mountain sect leaders are considered super scrubs.
Even powerful individuals in major sects throughout the trilogy were scrubs compared with Greats lvl fighters. The 5-mountain sects in theory shouldn't be up to the par of major sects in martial arts. Hence, assuming a CX (who is of a major sect) should be much stronger than most of 5-mountain leaders; then it shows that most of the 5 mountain leaders are super scrubs-- in Jin Merc tier exactly as you pointed out
I do like the analogy of comparing the QZ7 to the mountain leaders (IIRC I think I've also mentioned in another thread or this one?!?). But even within the QZ7, you had vast differences in ability... QCJ would be was superior to the rest as a fighter. Mayu may have had the best internal. The rest are just super scrubs. I think the difference is that ZLC is a unique one and is definitely a tier above the rest and hence not even comparable to QCJ... He's like a XLN/HR-- not quite a Great but can either trick one or hold one off