View Poll Results: Where do you place the greatest blame for the tragedy of Sung Ching Sheu?

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  • Sung Ching Sheu himself

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  • Beggar's Union Elder Chan Yau Leung

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  • Mo Dong Hero Sung Yeun Kiu (SCS's father)

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Thread: Where do you place the greatest blame for the tragedy of Sung Ching Sheu?

  1. #1
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Where do you place the greatest blame for the tragedy of Sung Ching Sheu?

    Whom do you blame most for the tragedy of Sung Ching Sheu?

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    In life, he will blame everybody except himself. Maybe Z3F too - because he did not keep ZZR in Wudang.

    From an outsider perspective, he is to be blamed.

    Sound logical?

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    Let me play the Devil's Advocate.

    He was supposed to be the next leader of Wudang, but he had his prospective wife to be taken away by ZWJ and then had to watch everyone pander to ZWJ.

    Not exactly a good feeling.

    While he obviously made mistakes, it is understandable for him to do what he did.

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    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyoyatika View Post
    Let me play the Devil's Advocate.

    He was supposed to be the next leader of Wudang, but he had his prospective wife to be taken away by ZWJ and then had to watch everyone pander to ZWJ.

    Not exactly a good feeling.

    While he obviously made mistakes, it is understandable for him to do what he did.
    Can't disagree more. No one owed him anything. No one was obliged to love him or give him attention. His upbringing made it very clear to him what was right and what was wrong. He had no one to blame but himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandred Skavenslayer View Post
    Can't disagree more. No one owed him anything. No one was obliged to love him or give him attention. His upbringing made it very clear to him what was right and what was wrong. He had no one to blame but himself.
    You are missing my point. I am not saying he is right; but rather, what he did, was understandable.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyoyatika View Post
    You are missing my point. I am not saying he is right; but rather, what he did, was understandable.
    I get your point, I just don't accept it. SCS had base desires and gave into them, so what? Everyone has base desires, but we are human beings and most of us have the moral fiber not to act upon them. What is there to understand, that he behaved like an animal and we should emphasize with it?

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Whom do you blame most for the tragedy of Sung Ching Sheu?
    His arse luck for not stumbling upon an uber kung fu manual.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    His arse luck for not stumbling upon an uber kung fu manual.
    Learning and mastering Wudang MA is more than sufficient. Z3F is at a great level and all he needs to do is learn from him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    Learning and mastering Wudang MA is more than sufficient. Z3F is at a great level and all he needs to do is learn from him.
    Yes but he was only in his early 20s at the time of the novel so would not be able to reach real elite great level during the story. Learning the honest way from Z3F would make him say as strong as Zhang Cuishan (who was also said to be very talented) or slightly stronger at most.

    What he needed was to fall down the cliff and have the dying Fireworker Monk transfer all his power to him and stumble upon a copy of the Xiao Yao Yu Feng manual and eating the venomous golden dragon phoenix toad carp. Only a TVB director can truly help him.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Yes but he was only in his early 20s at the time of the novel so would not be able to reach real elite great level during the story. Learning the honest way from Z3F would make him say as strong as Zhang Cuishan (who was also said to be very talented) or slightly stronger at most.

    What he needed was to fall down the cliff and have the dying Fireworker Monk transfer all his power to him and stumble upon a copy of the Xiao Yao Yu Feng manual and eating the venomous golden dragon phoenix toad carp. Only a TVB director can truly help him.
    And emerging with the DS in the right hand and the HS in the left 😁

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    And emerging with the DS in the right hand and the HS in the left 😁
    He can let Wuji have those to continue the original plot (also so that ZZR can find 9 yin, its TVB so we need multiple characters to gang up on the big baddie in the last episode). Instead he finds the long lost 青龙刀 and 方天画戟.
    Last edited by CC; 10-14-20 at 10:20 AM.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Sung Ching Sheu himself. SCS is considered a very lucky man. Countless thousand people in wulin can only dream to be in his position. All he needs to do is keep training regularly in Wudang. Z3F will eventually teach him all the elite martial arts. He has a good chance of becoming a future leader of wudang. He does not need to take risk to do any heroic thing. All he needs to do is being a decent person. If I remember correctly, SCS is also handsome, perhaps not as great as Cheung Mo Kei but definitely not ugly. Regarding ZZR, he can forget about her if she does not like him. If he focus on himself, he will eventually able to find a hottie. SCS is equivalent to present days rich kids with great parents but choose to abuse drugs and commit crime.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    In an earlier discussion on this topic, a few people placed the blame on Sung Yeun Kiu (SCS's father). Now I know that it's said that a parent must take responsibility for a child's behavior, and to a great extent, I agree...but by the time we see him commit those tragic errors in HSDS, Sung Ching Sheu was a grown-*** man, not some little kid. All of his life, his father, his martial uncles, and his grandteacher instilled good values in him and enforced them strictly while setting great examples for him with their own conduct. I know that Sung Yeun Kiu felt badly about SCS going astray and murdering his own seventh uncle, which I expect from a conscientious parent, but I feel that it goes to far to say that Sung Yeun Kiu was to blame for his son's transgressions. SYK had already done all he could as a parent, but SCS chose to make his own bad decisions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Yes but he was only in his early 20s at the time of the novel so would not be able to reach real elite great level during the story. Learning the honest way from Z3F would make him say as strong as Zhang Cuishan (who was also said to be very talented) or slightly stronger at most.

    What he needed was to fall down the cliff and have the dying Fireworker Monk transfer all his power to him and stumble upon a copy of the Xiao Yao Yu Feng manual and eating the venomous golden dragon phoenix toad carp. Only a TVB director can truly help him.
    Zhang Cuishan is NOT the elite fighter but still a very very good fighter. If SCS is able to reach that level in his 20s, he is still better than 90% of people in wulin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    Sung Ching Sheu himself. SCS is considered a very lucky man. Countless thousand people in wulin can only dream to be in his position. All he needs to do is keep training regularly in Wudang. Z3F will eventually teach him all the elite martial arts. He has a good chance of becoming a future leader of wudang. He does not need to take risk to do any heroic thing. All he needs to do is being a decent person. If I remember correctly, SCS is also handsome, perhaps not as great as Cheung Mo Kei but definitely not ugly. Regarding ZZR, he can forget about her if she does not like him. If he focus on himself, he will eventually able to find a hottie. SCS is equivalent to present days rich kids with great parents but choose to abuse drugs and commit crime.
    Yeah plenty of fishes in the sea, no need to keep chasing the one, especially his from a good background and had a bright future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    Yeah plenty of fishes in the sea, no need to keep chasing the one, especially his from a good background and had a bright future.
    Sung Ching Sheu was the dark side of the sort of singleminded devotion to one woman that Yeung Gor and Deun Yu get praised/rewarded for. SCS's outcome was much more realistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Sung Ching Sheu was the dark side of the sort of singleminded devotion to one woman that Yeung Gor and Deun Yu get praised/rewarded for. SCS's outcome was much more realistic.
    Didn't DY ended up with someone else? What if XLN never loved YG in the first place. Would he still love and wait for her?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    Didn't DY ended up with someone else?
    In the third edition, he decided he could have more than one. This makes his character worse in some ways and better in others.

    What if XLN never loved YG in the first place. Would he still love and wait for her?
    Maybe. It's hard to say with Yeung Gor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post



    Maybe. It's hard to say with Yeung Gor.

    His Sad Palms would overwhelm even Xu Zhu after XLN gets married to Yin Ziping.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    This may be an unpopular opinion, but...

    I think the real tipping point in Qingshu's character arc comes when he's discovered, shall we say, "admiring" the Emei female disciples by his Seventh Uncle Mo. Prior to that, he's thought some nasty things about Zhang Wuji, but not actually done anything truly reprehensible. Now, obviously, surreptitiously observing young ladies isn't something that the disciple of a honourable and upright sect should do. But, ladies and gentlemen (well... more you gents than ladies...) I invite you to put yourselves in Qingshu's shoes - into the scenario that he might well have encountered...


    So you're Song Qingshu. You're in your early twenties, athletic and vigorous from having trained nearly from birth as a martial artist, but having grown up and lived practically all your life on Wudangshan, with only your six martial uncles, the rarely-seen grandmaster Zhang, your parents (possibly just your father - Jinyong never mentioned Mrs. Song in any detail...) and various Taoists for company, the female species is somewhat of a mystery to you. Then, on the journey to the Radiant Mountain, you meet the Emei sect, you find yourself falling really hard for their most beautiful young disciple, Zhiruo. The fact that she appears to fancy the youth who appears out of nowhere to save the Demonic Cult troubles, even hurts you, but doesn't diminish the intense attraction you feel.

    One night, on the homeward journey, you hear female laughter coming from one of the rooms in the lodge the Emei Sect have taken up. At this point, do you hurry back to your own sleeping quarters - maybe the campsite where you and the other Wudang sect members are going to sleep under the stars, having chivalrously given up the inn to the Emei Sect? Or, perhaps, might you stand still for just a few moments, captivated by the carefree sound?

    If you take the first option - congratulations, you're a true Wudang disciple (and probably a great candidate to become Little Taoist Song when you get back up the mountain). But let's assume that because you're a vigorous young man, you make the fatal mistake of lingering. Then you notice that the girlish laughter and conversation is accompanied by splashing, as though water is being thrown about, and that there is a faint glow of light, coming from a slight tear in the paper window...

    Again, you've got two choices - turn your back on temptation like a virtuous disciple should, or have a look, for just a moment... It's late at night, no one is around...

    Now, once again, if you virtuously head off into the night, the faint sound of laughing and splashing fading away, congratulations (or maybe not - you might be a great candidate for practising the martial arts of the Sunflower Manual...). But if you do decide, perhaps against your better judgement, to take a look, a moment turns into another, and then another, as the female Emei disciples, one by one, disrobe, laughing amongst each other as they splash away the grime of travel from their lissom limbs. Their lithesome shapes, appearing and disappearing amidst the clouds rising from the barrel of hot water in the center of the bathroom, are a vision unlike anything you have ever seen...

    ...And then, utterly without warning, a steely hand lands on your shoulder. Your heart nearly explodes as you think: it's High Priestess Miejue! But, as you are spun around to face the person who has accosted you, to your utmost horror, you realize that you would much, much rather face the remorseless and pitiless Sect Leader of Emei - for confronting you is your Seventh Uncle Mo...

    ------------------

    OK, I'll be the first to agree that surreptitiously observing young ladies isn't something that the disciple of a honourable and upright sect should do. But how many of you guys can say that you've never, at some point or another, in reality or (ahem) virtually, done more or less what Song Qingshu did? Fortunately, most of us didn't have to deal with a hot-headed uncle immediately afterwards...

    I can already hear Trien Chieu saying that back in the old days young men were much more moral and would never have contemplated doing what Qingshu did. But one can't help but wonder what some other Jinyong characters might have done...

    Duan Yu - ho ho ho... just check his personal possessions and you'll find a pretty titillating scroll...

    Xu Zhu - erm... what happened when the little monk actually found himself with a real live woman? OK, he might well skulk away, to mentally and probably physically flagellate himself afterwards (but probably not without taking a look).

    Guo Jing - in his youth, before travelling south and fully absorbing the Confucian culture of the Song state, one could imagine he'd least take a look if he saw a group of pretty girls splashing about in one of the lakes dotting the steppe...


    So yeah - I agree Qingshu was a very naughty boy - but worse than that, he was a very stupid one. If he'd grovelled for all he was worth before Seventh Hero Mo instead of running away in a panic, he might actually have gotten away with it...

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