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Thread: Raw talent: JMZ = XF Agree?

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Default Raw talent: JMZ = XF Agree?

    In terms of raw fighting ability and understanding martial arts, do you agree? I think JMZ wouldnt have done any worse than XF if you gave him the same skills and training. The only difference was JMZ was greedy and didnt get the correct lucky breaks. He should have been a Xiao Yao disciple.
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    Jiumozhi failed to learn Yijinjing on 2nd edition novel , do you think XF will be able to learn Yijinjing if he didnt drop the manual?

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a_tumiwa View Post
    Jiumozhi failed to learn Yijinjing on 2nd edition novel , do you think XF will be able to learn Yijinjing if he didnt drop the manual?
    This question is quite unfair to JMZ because the YJJ learning hurdle was used as a plot device in the 2nd edition.

    So if XF tried to learn it knowing what it was, it should not work. He might get some benefits (I mean even Ah Zi in 2nd edition got some benefit from it after learning a bit of it) but really shouldnt master it if JY stuck to his own rules.

    The only way should a plot device moment like if the manual dropped (assuming it is still with him) from his robe after he stabbed himself and the wind blew the pages or when he was poisoned by Ah Zi with the wine. I mean, you know how it is, its all down to how the writer wants to twist the plot.
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    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a_tumiwa View Post
    Jiumozhi failed to learn Yijinjing on 2nd edition novel , do you think XF will be able to learn Yijinjing if he didnt drop the manual?
    JMZ's failure to learn YJJ had nothing to do with talent, but his previous mistake of using unorthodox daoist internal martial arts to fuel external Shaolin skills. He had already done near irreparable damage to himself and his force learning of YJJ was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

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    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    In terms of raw fighting ability and understanding martial arts, do you agree? I think JMZ wouldnt have done any worse than XF if you gave him the same skills and training. The only difference was JMZ was greedy and didnt get the correct lucky breaks. He should have been a Xiao Yao disciple.
    Difficult to say as both reached roughly the same level but used very different means. XF's progress was much more conventional and the fact he could best people, one or even two generations above him is a testament to is raw talent.

    JMZ showed great creativity in combing different martial arts together, but lacked the foresight to see the dangers in his reckless method.

    Broadly speaking I would say they were on a par with each other, but XF's better temperament made his progress more sustainable.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    They're both talented (you don't get as far as they both did without talent), but they had different kinds of talent. Kau Mor Tze approached martial arts more intellectually...like a scholar. He studied martial arts thoroughly and developed a sophisticated technical understanding of how it worked. Kiu Fung was more like a superjock blessed with extraordinary physical prowess: he didn't really have the inclination to intellectually study the finer points of martial arts; he just had a knack for doing whatever was necessary to win a fight.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    This question is quite unfair to JMZ because the YJJ learning hurdle was used as a plot device in the 2nd edition.

    So if XF tried to learn it knowing what it was, it should not work. He might get some benefits (I mean even Ah Zi in 2nd edition got some benefit from it after learning a bit of it) but really shouldnt master it if JY stuck to his own rules.

    The only way should a plot device moment like if the manual dropped (assuming it is still with him) from his robe after he stabbed himself and the wind blew the pages or when he was poisoned by Ah Zi with the wine. I mean, you know how it is, its all down to how the writer wants to twist the plot.
    And with Yik Gun Ging, it's especially horrible: you can't learn it if you WANT to. The only way to learn it is if you consciously don't want to learn it. Well, there goes 99% of the people who'd learn it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    And with Yik Gun Ging, it's especially horrible: you can't learn it if you WANT to. The only way to learn it is if you consciously don't want to learn it. Well, there goes 99% of the people who'd learn it.
    You dont need to consciously NOT want to learn it.

    You need to not consciously WANT to learn it.

    Quite a difference.

    In 2nd ed, after the initial boost, YTZ was consciously wanting to learn it and it said he managed to wing 70% of it. Didnt seem to have bad effects either. And he taught some to Ah Zi who was didnt know what it was but got some health benefit out of it.
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    Arguably XF had access to better MA than JMZ up to the novel's timeline. I don't even remember JMZ being annotated as having anything fantastic like GWM's Longxiang Banruo Gong? So yes, I think the talent is equivalent. I would love to know more about JMZ's background.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Arguably XF had access to better MA than JMZ up to the novel's timeline. I don't even remember JMZ being annotated as having anything fantastic like GWM's Longxiang Banruo Gong? So yes, I think the talent is equivalent. I would love to know more about JMZ's background.
    Hmm, before the novel start he already had his native Tibetan martial arts and flaming blade hand. Plus 7/8th of XWXG and Murong Bo's 72 Shaolin Arts. Not like that is significantly worse than XF no?

    Give JMZ what XZ got and imagine the OP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Hmm, before the novel start he already had his native Tibetan martial arts and flaming blade hand. Plus 7/8th of XWXG and Murong Bo's 72 Shaolin Arts. Not like that is significantly worse than XF no?

    Give JMZ what XZ got and imagine the OP.
    Isn't XF main skill is the Dragon palm? That can't be better than XWXG plus shaolin 72 arts? JMZ should already be better?

    Didn't XYS only learnt one of the 72 arts and was around XF level? I imagine knowing all 72 would be very OP.
    Last edited by Stance; 11-19-20 at 06:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    Isn't XF main skill is the Dragon palm? That can't be better than XWXG plus shaolin 72 arts? JMZ should already be better?

    Didn't XYS only learnt one of the 72 arts and was around XF level? I imagine knowing all 72 would be very OP.
    1. 3rd Edition XF also knew 1 of the 72.

    2. It isn't very clear (someone correct me if I am wrong) if the 72 Arts MRB gave to JMZ was an abridged version or if it was the full 72 books (and JMZ just skipped the inner energy cultivation parts).

    3. JMZ was still missing 1 book out of the 8 for the XWXG. Thats why I said if he had XZ's luck, imagine the OP.
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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Somehow I thought JMZ didn't get Xiao Wuxiang Gong and Shaolin 72 arts until story time. But that's probably wrong.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Somehow I thought JMZ didn't get Xiao Wuxiang Gong and Shaolin 72 arts until story time. But that's probably wrong.
    XWXG : He got it around the time Ding was still visiting Yuyan's mum IIRC. Narrated in flashback by JU.

    72 Arts : He got it from MRB, who was already playing dead before the story started. And he had it when he visited Tianlong Shi to try to swap with Kurong.
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    actually it is stated that JMZ did not learn all 72 arts, Murong Bo only gave 30-50 manuals (i cant remember the exact number) , then said to JMZ that he admire six meridians sword skill, and JMZ promise to bring the manual for him to exchange to the rest of manual copies of 72 shaolin arts in suzhou, that's how JMZ made his way to tianlong temple .so basically JMZ lied to shaolin monk and tianlong monks about he learned all the 72 arts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by a_tumiwa View Post
    actually it is stated that JMZ did not learn all 72 arts, Murong Bo only gave 30-50 manuals (i cant remember the exact number) , then said to JMZ that he admire six meridians sword skill, and JMZ promise to bring the manual for him to exchange to the rest of manual copies of 72 shaolin arts in suzhou, that's how JMZ made his way to tianlong temple .so basically JMZ lied to shaolin monk and tianlong monks about he learned all the 72 arts.
    Have you got the excerpt which states this? And was it a summarised version of the manuals he got? A whole bloody stack of 50 manuals seems quite crazy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Have you got the excerpt which states this? And was it a summarised version of the manuals he got? A whole bloody stack of 50 manuals seems quite crazy.
    Not sure about the exact number, but the gist is correct.
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    Louis Cha created errors in his third edit of DGSD.

    At the time, Jiumozhi went to Dali, he claims to have the full set of 72 arts of Shaolin. This statement is true if we go by the second edition only. In the third, you will read the problem. I have attached the relelvant pages for your perusal.

    Another error in DGSD is the status of Mrs Murong (wife of Murong Bo). Is she alive or dead?
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    Last edited by Athena; 11-24-20 at 08:19 AM.
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    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    The mistakes that were in the edit. How many Shaolin Arts did Jiumozhi have? Was Madam Murong still alive? It is a shame that they didn't hire capabale proofreaders.
    Last edited by Athena; 11-24-20 at 08:21 AM.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena View Post
    The mistakes that were in the edit. How many Shaolin Arts did Jiumozhi have? Was Madam Murong still alive? It is a shame that they didn't hire capabale proofreaders.
    I do wonder about this. Did Jinyong hire an editor for his revisions, or did he, having been an editor himself for many years, just assume that he could do it all himself? Having read some of the original editions, all of the second editions and most of the third editions, I see the same problem crop up again and again - he makes a local change to correct some problem, then does a sort of search-and-replace to propagate the change throughout the novel, but then neglects to make sure that the change makes sense in other contexts.

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