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Thread: Yue Buqun vs Zuo Lengchan was their accurate Skill Level

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    Default Yue Buqun vs Zuo Lengchan was their accurate Skill Level

    The fight between ZLC and YBQ was more indicative of their actual skill levels than the other fights we see in SPW.

    Despite the Jinyong Character rankings putting YBQ at 42, and ZLC at 65, the fight we got at the 5 mountainsalliance leadership duel was probably the fairest representation of their skills, ESPECIALLY YBQ.

    In the entire fight, ZLC was only slightly edging over YBQ, who we saw wasn't using the cave wall counters, or his new BXJF power up. It was literally described as a match between Huashan and Songshan sword arts, and frozen qi vs Zixia Shenggong. While the sword arts were pretty much on par, it was with the internal exchanges that reveal what ZLC thought about YBQ's skill, as he said that zixia shenggong was definitely a powerful skill as YBQ could still speak without being shaken by the palm energy. We also have to take into account that YBQ was being very controlled the entire time, in accordance with his Gentleman Sword moniker. It was a lot more even than you'd expect from a 20+ point difference in the rankings!

    I considered asking that rankings thread to place YBQ higher, or put ZLC down a little, but instead I'd like to engage all the wuxia fans here on to share their own views on my defence of YBQ. Admittedly, he IS my favourite character in SPW, and I know he gets plenty of hate because of the LHC fans, but in reality, he's one of the most misunderstood characters in the JY series, partially because it's easy to project all sorts of stereotypes on him; Kinda like Frollo, from the Hunchback of Notre Dame novel, not the Disney movie.

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    I'm new to the forum, so I'm making some noob mistakes with the posting eg I don't know how to delete stuff that got accidentally uploaded, but I also want to add that I meant for MOST of the duel we get to see the true skill levels of ZLC and YBQ. Sure, the needles were part of the bixie skills, ditto with the swordsmanship, but the REAL speed of YBQ wasn't revealed until after ZLC was blinded. Perhaps he didn't want ZLC to see his true ability and simply admit defeat for the time being, while plotting in the shadows: he had to neutralise ZLC in a way that wouldn't kill him, or he would have to face Songshan's resentment, and he couldn't risk keeping ZLC so close while he was fully capable of plotting against him.

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    Wow! Wait! What!

    I thought this forum was half functional and new accounts cannot be created.

    We haven't seen a new recruit in several years!

    April 2021?!?!!?
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    wow a YBQ's fan, that is something rare.

    dunno man,
    and i think a post-bixie YBQ should be stronger than non-blinded Zuo Lengchan, even in a fair fight.
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    Hahah, I've been following you guys for decades, the only place that wuxia lovers of the West can actually have discussions 😁

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    Thanks, that's my point exactly! Yet YBQ is only ranked 62 post bixie while ZLC is at 65. (It's bugged me for so long, because as I said before YBQ is my favourite SPW character.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junzi Tao View Post
    Thanks, that's my point exactly! Yet YBQ is only ranked 62 post bixie while ZLC is at 65. (It's bugged me for so long, because as I said before YBQ is my favourite SPW character.)
    I think the issue is that, before the fight with ZLC and before he mastered BXJF, he was such a scrub that the minions of ZLC and the disgraced Qi faction and opponents like the 6 fairies were described in a way which totally outclassed YBQ. It wouldnt be a stretch to assume that these same opponents would not be able to stand up to ZLC (since aside from the 6 irritants, they were all his minions).

    I can only reconcile it by assuming that BXJF accentuated his basic Huashan skills by maybe subtly adding a bit more speed or other adjustment (e.g. Lin Yuantu was able to defeat Changqingzi without Qingcheng Sect even attributing or suspecting anything about the speed element of BXJF. They kept thinking something about the 72 strokes was miraculous but couldnt figure out what)
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    I think the issue is that, before the fight with ZLC and before he mastered BXJF, he was such a scrub that the minions of ZLC and the disgraced Qi faction and opponents like the 6 fairies were described in a way which totally outclassed YBQ. It wouldnt be a stretch to assume that these same opponents would not be able to stand up to ZLC (since aside from the 6 irritants, they were all his minions).

    I can only reconcile it by assuming that BXJF accentuated his basic Huashan skills by maybe subtly adding a bit more speed or other adjustment (e.g. Lin Yuantu was able to defeat Changqingzi without Qingcheng Sect even attributing or suspecting anything about the speed element of BXJF. They kept thinking something about the 72 strokes was miraculous but couldnt figure out what)
    I have thought about it for a while, being a YBQ proponent, and in the translations I've read, it said that YCH and YBQ's masters discussed LYT's swordsmanship and mentioned how it weirdly sped up at certain points. Yet nothing like that is mentioned with so many experts watching the fight.

    I suppose it's not out of the question to say that YBQ was out of shape and in the time spent practising his swordsmanship for the alliance meeting, he just naturally improved his huashan skills somewhat, but the way it was described suggested that YBQ wasn't displaying anything out of the usual realm of his skills when he fought ZLC.
    The sword faction weren't confident they could beat YBQ in a fair fight, which is why they were teaming up against him, and at the abandoned monastery YBQ handled the 15 experts for quite some time, despite the distractions of being surrounded by enemies who would kill/molest his students and family. The 15 experts were said to be familiar with each other's styles, thus they worked in tandem: that basically means they had a pseudo formation power up! At Shaolin temple, when using the three linked immortals sword move, everyone commented on how it was extremely fast, which we can use as an example of YBQ's normal ability during his fight with ZLC.

    I understand though, that a HUGE part of YBQ's characterisation is that his true ability and motives are almost always hidden or obscured- we can't just make judgement on speculations alone. But still, with novel lines such as "he was able to dodge a point blanc thrust from ZLC by practically back several feet, then zipping to his original point blanc position in from of ZLC" makes me petition for his rank to be upgraded in the rankings thread.

    Super speed + powerful internal energy + strategic intelligence + very good swordsmanship should be objectively impressive, even if most people don't like YBQ!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junzi Tao View Post
    I have thought about it for a while, being a YBQ proponent, and in the translations I've read, it said that YCH and YBQ's masters discussed LYT's swordsmanship and mentioned how it weirdly sped up at certain points. Yet nothing like that is mentioned with so many experts watching the fight.

    I suppose it's not out of the question to say that YBQ was out of shape and in the time spent practising his swordsmanship for the alliance meeting, he just naturally improved his huashan skills somewhat, but the way it was described suggested that YBQ wasn't displaying anything out of the usual realm of his skills when he fought ZLC.
    The sword faction weren't confident they could beat YBQ in a fair fight, which is why they were teaming up against him, and at the abandoned monastery YBQ handled the 15 experts for quite some time, despite the distractions of being surrounded by enemies who would kill/molest his students and family. The 15 experts were said to be familiar with each other's styles, thus they worked in tandem: that basically means they had a pseudo formation power up! At Shaolin temple, when using the three linked immortals sword move, everyone commented on how it was extremely fast, which we can use as an example of YBQ's normal ability during his fight with ZLC.

    I understand though, that a HUGE part of YBQ's characterisation is that his true ability and motives are almost always hidden or obscured- we can't just make judgement on speculations alone. But still, with novel lines such as "he was able to dodge a point blanc thrust from ZLC by practically back several feet, then zipping to his original point blanc position in from of ZLC" makes me petition for his rank to be upgraded in the rankings thread.

    Super speed + powerful internal energy + strategic intelligence + very good swordsmanship should be objectively impressive, even if most people don't like YBQ!
    Perhaps ZLC because not "good" in swordplay though he is the leader of sword alliance so he couldn't edge out YBQ in terms of swordplay that's mean ZLC overall skill still higher than YBQ..

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    If YBQ have "powerful" inner strength he wouldn't use "trick" when exchange palm with ZLC..

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    I think the issue is that, before the fight with ZLC and before he mastered BXJF, he was such a scrub that the minions of ZLC and the disgraced Qi faction and opponents like the 6 fairies were described in a way which totally outclassed YBQ. It wouldnt be a stretch to assume that these same opponents would not be able to stand up to ZLC (since aside from the 6 irritants, they were all his minions).

    I can only reconcile it by assuming that BXJF accentuated his basic Huashan skills by maybe subtly adding a bit more speed or other adjustment (e.g. Lin Yuantu was able to defeat Changqingzi without Qingcheng Sect even attributing or suspecting anything about the speed element of BXJF. They kept thinking something about the 72 strokes was miraculous but couldnt figure out what)
    This is not quite correct. It was specifically stated that Qingcheng Sect noticed that there was something weird about the 72 strokes that allowed the user to “suddenly speed up dramatically”; they just never realized that the speed was there all along, Lin Yuantu just didn’t use it. In tech terms, they thought the 72 strokes allowed the user to “overclock” speed somehow, whereas the truth was that Lin Yuantu was actually “underclocking” and could speed up to max whenever needed.

    Regarding this thread, it was pretty clear that Yue Buqun was completely turtling in the early part of the fight, relying on his agility to avoid letting his sword even make contact with ZLC’s. When the latter started to use palm strikes using his polar ice Qi, LHC noted that YBQ would probably only be able to take a few clashes at most.

    In addition to that, YBQ only secured victory through a trifecta of 1) poisoning ZLC, 2) conning ZLC into using the fake PXJF, and 3) suddenly busting out the needle techniques.

    All things considered, I personally suspect post PXJF YBQ really was still a bit weaker than ZLC at the time of their duel, hence the need for so many preparations on his part.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    This is not quite correct. It was specifically stated that Qingcheng Sect noticed that there was something weird about the 72 strokes that allowed the user to “suddenly speed up dramatically”; they just never realized that the speed was there all along, Lin Yuantu just didn’t use it. In tech terms, they thought the 72 strokes allowed the user to “overclock” speed somehow, whereas the truth was that Lin Yuantu was actually “underclocking” and could speed up to max whenever needed.

    Regarding this thread, it was pretty clear that Yue Buqun was completely turtling in the early part of the fight, relying on his agility to avoid letting his sword even make contact with ZLC’s. When the latter started to use palm strikes using his polar ice Qi, LHC noted that YBQ would probably only be able to take a few clashes at most.

    In addition to that, YBQ only secured victory through a trifecta of 1) poisoning ZLC, 2) conning ZLC into using the fake PXJF, and 3) suddenly busting out the needle techniques.

    All things considered, I personally suspect post PXJF YBQ really was still a bit weaker than ZLC at the time of their duel, hence the need for so many preparations on his part.
    Absolutely agree..

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    In fact, the more that I think about it, the more I think a 20+ gap between Zuo Lengchan and Yue Buqun was completely justified. Zuo Lengchan is often underrated. On a technical level, he was able to battle RWX for quite a long period of time at Shaolin, and while RWX seized the upper hand after a time before being baited into sucking in the glacial qi, Xiang Wentian was watching the fight and it was stated thusly:

    Xiang Wentian's face was sometimes happy and sometimes worried. In a moment, it changed into doubt. In another moment, it changed into regret. Another moment, it changed into an angry glare. It was as if he was personally fighting this battle. Linghu Chong thought, "Brother Xiang's experience is much higher compared to Yingying. Looking at him being so nervous, I'm afraid it would be really hard for Mr. Ren to win this battle."

    So while in the end ZLC obviously wasn't a match for RWX in a real fight (in large part, imo, due to his comparatively weaker internal energy), he was good enough to at least give RWX a good run for his money. In addition, people also underrate how strong his internal energy was. Even after being blinded, when his sword clashed with LHC's during the cave fight, his blows were so strong that LHC's sword was almost knocked out of his hand, and eventually his arm started to go numb. Remember, LHC himself had absorbed a lot of internal energy as well, but Zuo Lengchan still completely outclassed him. Now, consider what happened when LHC dueled post-PXJF Yue Buqun; Yue Buqun's arm started to go numb!

    Yue Buqun blocked three attacks and retreated for two steps. He was secretly amazed. He just blocked three times, but his whole arm was shaken and felt numb. When they fought at the Shaolin Temple, they fought for more than a thousand moves, but Linghu Chong didn't use his true internal energy with his sword. But at this time, he did not give way in his three attacks.

    So Zuo Lengchan's internal energy outclassed LHC's, and LHC's internal energy outclassed YBQ's. That means his internal energy is way better than Yue Buqun's - and it has the added effect of being infused with his self-created glacial energy! We already can see from You Tanzhi and the Xuanming Elders that ice-type internal energy can have incredibly deleterious effects on opponents, allowing them to 'punch above their weight class' to a certain extent.

    Factoring in all of the above, I think the 20 point gap is definitely justified. In turn, the 'mere' 5 point gap between Zuo Lengchan and RWX is also justified. Zuo Lengchan is just a criminally underrated beast.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 04-29-21 at 09:52 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    In fact, the more that I think about it, the more I think a 20+ gap between Zuo Lengchan and Yue Buqun was completely justified. Zuo Lengchan is often underrated. On a technical level, he was able to battle RWX for quite a long period of time at Shaolin, and while RWX seized the upper hand after a time before being baited into sucking in the glacial qi, Xiang Wentian was watching the fight and it was stated thusly:

    Xiang Wentian's face was sometimes happy and sometimes worried. In a moment, it changed into doubt. In another moment, it changed into regret. Another moment, it changed into an angry glare. It was as if he was personally fighting this battle. Linghu Chong thought, "Brother Xiang's experience is much higher compared to Yingying. Looking at him being so nervous, I'm afraid it would be really hard for Mr. Ren to win this battle."

    So while in the end ZLC obviously wasn't a match for RWX in a real fight (in large part, imo, due to his comparatively weaker internal energy), he was good enough to at least give RWX a good run for his money. In addition, people also underrate how strong his internal energy was. Even after being blinded, when his sword clashed with LHC's during the cave fight, his blows were so strong that LHC's sword was almost knocked out of his hand, and eventually his arm started to go numb. Remember, LHC himself had absorbed a lot of internal energy as well, but Zuo Lengchan still completely outclassed him. Now, consider what happened when LHC dueled post-PXJF Yue Buqun; Yue Buqun's arm started to go numb!

    Yue Buqun blocked three attacks and retreated for two steps. He was secretly amazed. He just blocked three times, but his whole arm was shaken and felt numb. When they fought at the Shaolin Temple, they fought for more than a thousand moves, but Linghu Chong didn't use his true internal energy with his sword. But at this time, he did not give way in his three attacks.

    So Zuo Lengchan's internal energy outclassed LHC's, and LHC's internal energy outclassed YBQ's. That means his internal energy is way better than Yue Buqun's - and it has the added effect of being infused with his self-created glacial energy! We already can see from You Tanzhi and the Xuanming Elders that ice-type internal energy can have incredibly deleterious effects on opponents, allowing them to 'punch above their weight class' to a certain extent.

    Factoring in all of the above, I think the 20 point gap is definitely justified. In turn, the 'mere' 5 point gap between Zuo Lengchan and RWX is also justified. Zuo Lengchan is just a criminally underrated beast.
    Agree again ZLC just like end-LOCH GJ for me which only slightly weaker than Greats..

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    I always felt that if ZLC was given the BXJF, well he wouldnt practice it but if he did, he would be at DFBB levels in time.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    In fact, the more that I think about it, the more I think a 20+ gap between Zuo Lengchan and Yue Buqun was completely justified. Zuo Lengchan is often underrated. On a technical level, he was able to battle RWX for quite a long period of time at Shaolin, and while RWX seized the upper hand after a time before being baited into sucking in the glacial qi, Xiang Wentian was watching the fight and it was stated thusly:

    Xiang Wentian's face was sometimes happy and sometimes worried. In a moment, it changed into doubt. In another moment, it changed into regret. Another moment, it changed into an angry glare. It was as if he was personally fighting this battle. Linghu Chong thought, "Brother Xiang's experience is much higher compared to Yingying. Looking at him being so nervous, I'm afraid it would be really hard for Mr. Ren to win this battle."

    So while in the end ZLC obviously wasn't a match for RWX in a real fight (in large part, imo, due to his comparatively weaker internal energy), he was good enough to at least give RWX a good run for his money. In addition, people also underrate how strong his internal energy was. Even after being blinded, when his sword clashed with LHC's during the cave fight, his blows were so strong that LHC's sword was almost knocked out of his hand, and eventually his arm started to go numb. Remember, LHC himself had absorbed a lot of internal energy as well, but Zuo Lengchan still completely outclassed him. Now, consider what happened when LHC dueled post-PXJF Yue Buqun; Yue Buqun's arm started to go numb!

    Yue Buqun blocked three attacks and retreated for two steps. He was secretly amazed. He just blocked three times, but his whole arm was shaken and felt numb. When they fought at the Shaolin Temple, they fought for more than a thousand moves, but Linghu Chong didn't use his true internal energy with his sword. But at this time, he did not give way in his three attacks.

    So Zuo Lengchan's internal energy outclassed LHC's, and LHC's internal energy outclassed YBQ's. That means his internal energy is way better than Yue Buqun's - and it has the added effect of being infused with his self-created glacial energy! We already can see from You Tanzhi and the Xuanming Elders that ice-type internal energy can have incredibly deleterious effects on opponents, allowing them to 'punch above their weight class' to a certain extent.

    Factoring in all of the above, I think the 20 point gap is definitely justified. In turn, the 'mere' 5 point gap between Zuo Lengchan and RWX is also justified. Zuo Lengchan is just a criminally underrated beast.
    I have to point out that LHC's arm was going numb because he was absorbing polar ice energy, not necessarily due to the clash of blows themselves: he stopped becausehe didn't want his energy to get stick like RWX. When ZLC faced RWX, the latter had already fought the abbot previously, and then was forced to jumpstraight into battle against ZLC- we should discount how RWX being exhausted had something to do with how well ZLC was faring.

    As for LHC vs YBQ, we're not debating that LHC is better. 😄

    Putting YBQ at 65 while ZLC is at 64 allows for the former to not outclass the greats. It's rather picky that a rank of 67 would mean that YBQ is on the levels of the LOCH greats ranked at 70, but my stickler on the topic is just that there's a lot of data presented in the YBQ vs ZLC match: it was stated several times that ZLC was trying to dominate YBQ, who was playing quite defensively and not aggressively for almost the entire match. If YBQ's true speed allows him to circumvent point blanc thrusts from ZLC, he arguably could have gone on the offensive that match, if he wasn't trying to maintain his Junzi Jian reputation. There's a lot to be said for an unarmed guy who can casually walk up to someone trying to kill him with a sword!

    This is just speculation, as we only see him fight full.speed later against LHC who admitted that he would have lost quickly had he not been privy to the execution of bixie sword techniques several times prior- how many other prospective opponents can have the luxury of studying up on their opponent's moves before a fight?

    It would have been fun to see more ZLC fights, as many of us agree that he is underrated- in a open, no holds barred match, would he lose to YBQ more often than not? If so, he shouldn't be 2 points higher than YBQ, who I am convinced was holding back during that match at the Alliance meeting. Just because YBQ hedged his bets in that match doesn't discount the display of martial ability we see him perform later in the novel- in many ways, ZLC deserved his fate, considering all the grief he had given just about every other faction in the 5 mountains alliance.

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    If YBQ really stronger than ZLC then why he use trick to beat ZLC..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    If YBQ really stronger than ZLC then why he use trick to beat ZLC..
    I could never understand that part when watching the series.

    I thought he was stronger after learning pixie sword, but then he was fighting dirty too... So why all fuss ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    I could never understand that part when watching the series.

    I thought he was stronger after learning pixie sword, but then he was fighting dirty too... So why all fuss ...
    YBQ vs ZLC remembering me about YG vs Huodu which YG win use "trick"..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    I could never understand that part when watching the series.

    I thought he was stronger after learning pixie sword, but then he was fighting dirty too... So why all fuss ...
    I took it as he wanted to hide BXJF. If he busted out the 72 moves it would be shameful in front of the sword alliance.

    Why he couldnt just speed up his huashan art, is just plot point.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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