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Thread: Yang Guo (HIS and full-powered Sad Palms) vs Zhang Wuji

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    Default Yang Guo (HIS and full-powered Sad Palms) vs Zhang Wuji

    In this battle, post-16 YG comes equipped with Heavy Iron Sword and has not united with Xialongnu.
    Zhang Wuji is at the end of HSDS, he comes to fight.

    How would the battle go and who will be victorious at the end?
    Please include the strategy used and number of stances the victor needs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FeilongZ View Post
    In this battle, post-16 YG comes equipped with Heavy Iron Sword and has not united with Xialongnu.
    Zhang Wuji is at the end of HSDS, he comes to fight.

    How would the battle go and who will be victorious at the end?
    Please include the strategy used and number of stances the victor needs.
    YG would win without hesitation..

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    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    YG goes in with HIS, ZWJ backs away.
    YG pursues not given his opponent time to gather himself.
    ZWJ swiftly gets backed into a corner, uses 乾坤大挪移 and predicting YG's next move, raises the Holy Tablet to fend of the skull splitting sword.
    YG is impressed ZWJ's strength but does not break the momentum of his attack and pushes down.
    ZWJ shocked at the still descending sword tries to use Tai Chi to deflect the attack and open up his opponent.
    YG sees his sword pushed to one side and go plummeting towards the ground.
    ZWJ sees his plan working and prepares to counter attack.
    YG is a display of impossible strength, stops his sword in mid fall and changes its trajectory transforming a downwards strike into a horizontal slash at ZWJ's torso.
    ZWJ unable to believe his eyes fails to react in time and the sword comes crashing into his ribs.
    9 Yang auto defense is activated and for a moment HIS is stopped but the reprieve is short lived as the force field of pure Yang energy is overloaded. HIS bites deep into ZWJ's side.
    FATALITY.

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    Wow. Mandred detailed fight scenerior could rival Jing Yong writings. I could envision the details and could make a mini anime clip

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    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    I thank you. Your other challenge might take a bit longer. Need to do some planning for that one.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandred Skavenslayer View Post
    I thank you. Your other challenge might take a bit longer. Need to do some planning for that one.
    While I do think Yeung Gor would likely win this encounter, I do not believe he would walk away unscathed. In a death duel between Greats, even the winning combatant is likely to sustain serious injury.

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    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    While I do think Yeung Gor would likely win this encounter, I do not believe he would walk away unscathed. In a death duel between Greats, even the winning combatant is likely to sustain serious injury.
    True, but we must also take into account the combatants personalities and experience. YG has a lot more experience fighting great level opponents and would know how do deal with ZWJ much sooner than ZWJ could react to him. If this was a fight where neither side had time to prepare then it is very likely that ZWJ inexperience and natural timidness would get him killed.

    Now if we gave them both foreknowledge of each other, then yes I agree ZWJ could cause some damage to YG.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandred Skavenslayer View Post
    True, but we must also take into account the combatants personalities and experience. YG has a lot more experience fighting great level opponents and would know how do deal with ZWJ much sooner than ZWJ could react to him. If this was a fight where neither side had time to prepare then it is very likely that ZWJ inexperience and natural timidness would get him killed.

    Now if we gave them both foreknowledge of each other, then yes I agree ZWJ could cause some damage to YG.
    The way I see it, Cheung Mo Gei is dead on the ground, as you described, but Yeung Gor limps away with severe internal injuries from which he will need many months to recover.

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    My scenario:
    At first glance,
    Wuji see the one-armed YG and felt some sympathy for him. However, he senses that his adversary is very powerful and not dare to underestimate him.

    Yang Guo started to analyze his opponent and see that he is a young man in his twenties. YG did not want to use his heavy iron sword because his opponent is not armed.
    So he caustiouly wants to test Wuji power.
    YG looks distantly into the sky and there was melancholy in his facial expression.
    His body seem relaxed and in an indefensive way.

    Wuji sees the opponent is opened for an attack and uses his quickness to hit YG.
    Suddenly YG pushed downward with an overwhelming force.
    Wuji was caught offguard but his autoprotect was activated and the two enormous forces collided. This caused Wuji to slightly wobble and tremble.
    After just one unpredictable stance by YG, Wuji knows he has to be more defensive.

    YG was secretly admiring his opponent because of the the young man's profound internal energy.
    Then, YG stands with one leg and his body flows like water. Waiting for his opponent to attack....
    After escaping death, Wuji did not dare to set the offense again.
    Realizing this, YG slowly approach Wuji until they are about two meters from each other.
    Wuji realize he has no choice but to attack, so he hit YG with all his might.

    Right before Wuji's palms make contact with YG's body, YG suddently attack with his body: arm, elbows, legs, knees, torso, shoulders, hips, sleeve, countering Wuji's palms with his palm and sleeve and his other body parts hit Wuji. This time Wuji's autoprotect could not protect him because he was hitting with all his power and left himself opened. Wuji was unable to evade.
    As a result, YG's ingenious and unpredictable stance severely injured Wuji.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FeilongZ View Post
    My scenario:
    At first glance,
    Wuji see the one-armed YG and felt some sympathy for him. However, he senses that his adversary is very powerful and not dare to underestimate him.

    Yang Guo started to analyze his opponent and see that he is a young man in his twenties. YG did not want to use his heavy iron sword because his opponent is not armed.
    So he caustiouly wants to test Wuji power.
    YG looks distantly into the sky and there was melancholy in his facial expression.
    His body seem relaxed and in an indefensive way.

    Wuji sees the opponent is opened for an attack and uses his quickness to hit YG.
    Suddenly YG pushed downward with an overwhelming force.
    Wuji was caught offguard but his autoprotect was activated and the two enormous forces collided. This caused Wuji to slightly wobble and tremble.
    After just one unpredictable stance by YG, Wuji knows he has to be more defensive.

    YG was secretly admiring his opponent because of the the young man's profound internal energy.
    Then, YG stands with one leg and his body flows like water. Waiting for his opponent to attack....
    After escaping death, Wuji did not dare to set the offense again.
    Realizing this, YG slowly approach Wuji until they are about two meters from each other.
    Wuji realize he has no choice but to attack, so he hit YG with all his might.

    Right before Wuji's palms make contact with YG's body, YG suddently attack with his body: arm, elbows, legs, knees, torso, shoulders, hips, sleeve, countering Wuji's palms with his palm and sleeve and his other body parts hit Wuji. This time Wuji's autoprotect could not protect him because he was hitting with all his power and left himself opened. Wuji was unable to evade.
    As a result, YG's ingenious and unpredictable stance severely injured Wuji.
    If YG use Sad Palm 💯% I believe he could beat Wuji within 5-10 moves just like JLFW..

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    People, one thing you need to understand about the Sad Palms: it's a Great-level martial art. It's not UBERDUBEROMGIALWAYSWIN martial art like whatever the heck the Janitor Monk uses.

    At 100%, Sad Palms makes Yeung Gor approximately equal to Gwok Jing at the end of ROCH. That's it...and frankly, it will be enough against pretty much any other opponent in ROCH except for Gwok Jing.

    Between Greats-level fighters, unless somebody isn't giving it his all or there are other intervening factors such as injury, severe distraction, etc., combat will not be resolved in under 1000 strokes. That's both a testament to how good these folks are and how closely matched up they are.

    Let's not make a farce of it.

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    For Ken: Your statement is true for the original greatest regarding the requirement of 1000 stages to decide a victory.
    But your statement is false regarding YG vs Great-level opponents.
    Please see the post a few years ago by WuxiaMaster and CancerLuna:

    Quote Originally Posted by WuxiaMaster View Post
    We know Yang Guo is stronger than the 4 Greats, but by how much?

    Here are some battles/exchanges/well established opinions which we can take into account:

    1. 4 Greats are equal. Zhou Botong is slightly stronger than 4 Greats.

    2. Huang Yao Shi comment: Only Guo Jing XL18Z could match his palm powers.

    3. GWM fought Yideng, and would have most definitely won if the battle dragged on.

    4. Yang Guo sparring with Zhou Bo Tong: Do we interpret this battle as them being equal or Yang Guo being stronger? Was Yang Guo not giving his all?

    Given the above, the final battle makes it seem like YG is a whole level ahead of the 4 Greats.

    Final Battle 1st Part: Happy YG (who is unable to utilize full power of Sad Palms) manage to evenly match, and is even winning, against GWM? We can even argue that the YG here even weaker than normal YG in his fight against ZBT.

    Final Battle 2nd Part: Sad YG was able to destroy GWM in relatively few moves.

    That means:

    Sad YG >>> YG > ZBT >> GWM >> 4 Greats
    The polling choices makes it hard to vote since the only logical choice is #2.

    YG and ZBT were definitely in the same tier (Great tier) and differences between experts are extremely close. I think the only possible takeaway from YG and ZBT's spar (as well as his with HYS) is that YG has reached the 'Great' level and has reached parity with them.

    To see actual differences in ability, it'd require a life and death match. Within the small list of people that are at the Great level, differences between levels can probably be acknowledged through how long the fights take (qualifier is that some styles naturally take longer to subdue the opponent) or how definitive the win is.

    We see some facts though. (Wording might be off, please fact check )

    1. Pre 16, GJ vs GWM, was said to have to takes 1000+ stances to determine a winner (aka extremely close, probably ~)
    2. Pre 16, YG vs GWM, I'd estimate YG to beat GWM in around the same time period as QQR.
    3. Pre 16, YD vs QQR, Estimated to take 1000+ stances for YD to eek out half stance advantage. (YD > QQR but extremely close)
    4. Pre 16, YG vs QQR, Beat him in a few hundred stances decisively (yes he threw snow in his eye)
    5. Post 16, YD vs GWM, YD was obviously going to lose
    6. Post 16, ZBT vs GWM, Don't remember this too heavily but I believe they were about equal
    6. Post 16, YG vs GWM, In his --->happy<--- state, GWM was afraid he was going to lose in ---->200<----- stances.
    7. Post 16, YG vs GWM, In his --->sad<---- state, won in less than 10 stances.

    I'd say Peak YG with only Sad Palms is about 10-200 stances better than GWM with a definitive win.

    If you look at the other examples, most will be about 1000+ to determine who has the advantage/beginning to win.

    I'll conclude that in a regular spar, YG == GJ == ZBT == Greats == GWM everytime. There just isn't enough bloodlust to determine who's better.

    In a regular fight where YG is serious, I'd give it to YG to win against ZBT/GWM in less than 500 stances everytime.

    So given your last statement,

    Sad YG >>> YG > ZBT >> GWM >> 4 Greats

    I'd change it to
    Sad YG >>> YG > GWM == ZBT > 4 Greats
    and then qualify it with the fact that even though Sad YG is >>> YG, >>> on the left indicate extremely small differences in ability. (But as we already know, even small improvements are extremely hard to attain once you're at a high level.)


    Re: Sad Palms
    I almost wonder if Sad Palms is potentially slightly stronger than just 'Great' Level arts (YYZ, 18DP, Taichi Sword, etc). YG did have access to Dugu's teachings, why not incorporate those elements/intuitions into his own creation?

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    The original Greats

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    You can never quite rely on the Golden Wheel Monk's state of mind as an accurate measure of his opponent's ability because that monk is ALWAYS worried that he's going to lose any time he finds himself up against something new and unexpected. The Golden Wheel Monk is easily rattled.

    Along those same lines, the Golden Wheel Monk's Achilles' heel as a fighter is that he's slow to adjust/compensate when he comes up against something new. It's very idiosyncratic of him and we do not see the other Greats struggle with this problem as much as the Golden Wheel Monk does (review his fight scenes; this happens to him with alarming frequency). Sad Palms being such a strange technique, and one that the Golden Wheel Monk had never seen before, I think he got so rattled/unnerved by it that he was already psychologically defeated before he could mount an effective defense/counterattack within the range of his abilities. I imagine that up against any of the other Greats, Sad Palms would require hundreds of strokes to achieve definitive victory (not guaranteed, though probable against the elder Greats and 50/50 against Gwok Jing).

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    Yang Guo was going to win against Qiu Qian Ren and Jinlun Fawang within 300 stances in a duel base on the fights in the book.

    For the rest of the Greats, including ZBT, a YG with HIS and full-powered Sad Palms would be victorious in 500 stances or less.
    This does not include Guo Jing, maybe

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    Quote Originally Posted by FeilongZ View Post
    Yang Guo was going to win against Qiu Qian Ren and Jinlun Fawang within 300 stances in a duel base on the fights in the book.
    I think Yeung Gor outsmarted Kau Cheen Yan more than overwhelmed him. Yeung Gor cleverly used the terrain and weather conditions to his advantage, and Kau Cheen Yan wasn't exactly in his right mind (meaning his fighting judgment likely suffered gravely).

    For the rest of the Greats, including ZBT, a YG with HIS and full-powered Sad Palms would be victorious in 500 stances or less. This does not include Guo Jing, maybe
    Not sure about five-hundred, but the elders will go down faster due to stamina issues. They were at or nearing 100 years old, after all, while Yeung Gor was in his physical prime in his mid-thirties.

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    To Ken:
    I think this is the first time that you admit that the old Greats would lose to YG, even that you mention only stamina as the factor.
    Your acknowledgement is a victory for all forum posters who had tried to persuade you otherwise throughout the years

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FeilongZ View Post
    To Ken:
    I think this is the first time that you admit that the old Greats would lose to YG, even that you mention only stamina as the factor.
    Your acknowledgement is a victory for all forum posters who had tried to persuade you otherwise throughout the years
    It's a bit more nuanced than that. I've long believed that skill-wise, the Greats are on par with each other, but age is age, and when people go beyond a certain age, their stamina is going to suffer. A man in his thirties is naturally going to outlast a man in his nineties, all other things being equal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    It's a bit more nuanced than that. I've long believed that skill-wise, the Greats are on par with each other, but age is age, and when people go beyond a certain age, their stamina is going to suffer. A man in his thirties is naturally going to outlast a man in his nineties, all other things being equal.
    Except for Z3F which I believe still above Wuji even in his 💯+ years old..

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